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MeanGreenStompa wrote:Not that I was, if an issue is rendered moot, it's basically conjecture and supposition which is all this debate is for me until I have access to the document. You seem to be suggesting I misused that word? It does not suggest that discussion is closed merely that it's just talk, from my angle, until I can read it for myself, hence me bowing out.

That's the English meaning. Them colonials have made the word mean something else

It means a gathering of Ents right?...

moot

• adjective subject to debate or uncertainty: a moot point.

• verb put forward for discussion.
OED or AskOxford
---
For some reason (fear of discourse perhaps, or of thinking maybe) Americans, and others on occasion, use it to mean "Not worth talking about", "reduce or remove the value of", or "of little or no value". (see: American dictionaries, or even dictionary.com)

These can be mutually contradictory. So I have been known to over-react to that word.

And Gwar! likes to use it a lot now.


edited for sources.

Oh good, glad I was using it correctly!

Gwar! wrote:

kirsanth wrote:

Gwar! wrote:

kirsanth wrote:

Gwar! wrote:-cough- Gargoyles are not beasts, they are Winged, so are Jump Infantry.

Sure, but are they infantry also, as you said the Carnifex was Infantry?

No, I said the FAQ (OMFG AN FAQ!) states that "All Tyranids are Infantry, unless otherwise specified in their special rules or Biomorphs." Winged Biomorph (Gargoyles) = Jump Infantry in every way.

Then with the previous bit about the Hive Tyrant, can you see why I asked?

I am not seeing the issue...

I think I understand. Wing Biomorphs for any Tyranids turn the model into Jump Infantry. Thus gargoyles, winged warriors, and Flyrants are jump infantry. However, Flyrants also happen to be MC as well. The language that is being thrown around on the rumor forums states:

Compiled info on Space Wolves Codex wrote:Jaws of the World Wolf - Psychic shooting attack. Measure out 24" and any MCs, Beasts, Cavalry, Bikes, or Infantry touched by the line must pass an Initiative test or be removed from play. Monstrous creatures may subtract 1 from their dice roll.

While Jump Infantry are excluded from the list, MC are specifically included. Therfore the Hive Tyrant, while being a jump infantry unit, will still be effected by JOTHWW exclusivley due to it also being a MC. Assuming the rumor is worded correctly, what matters is whether the unit is a MC, a bike, a beast, a calvary unit, or an infantry unit.

If you needed a fluff reason, just imagine that the bulky flying MC is too slow in getting off the ground to avoid JOTHWW.

wyomingfox wrote:While Jump Infantry are excluded from the list, MC are specifically included. Therfore the Hive Tyrant, while being a jump infantry unit, will still be effected by JOTHWW exclusivley due to it also being a MC. Assuming the rumor is worded correctly, what matters is whether the unit is a MC, a bike, a beast, a calvary unit, or an infantry unit.

If you needed a fluff reason, just imagine that the bulky flying MC is too slow in getting off the ground to avoid JOTHWW.

Now the problem here is that, as pointed out to me by kirthanth, Wings state the model is Jump Infantry IN ALL RESPECTS. As one such respect is Unit Type, RaW it loses the MC Type. >.>

So...for the record...Kirthanth was right

Gwar! wrote:

kirsanth wrote:

Gwar! wrote:

kirsanth wrote:

Gwar! wrote:-cough- Gargoyles are not beasts, they are Winged, so are Jump Infantry.

Sure, but are they infantry also, as you said the Carnifex was Infantry?

No, I said the FAQ (OMFG AN FAQ!) states that "All Tyranids are Infantry, unless otherwise specified in their special rules or Biomorphs." Winged Biomorph (Gargoyles) = Jump Infantry in every way.

Then with the previous bit about the Hive Tyrant, can you see why I asked?

I am not seeing the issue...

Interestingly, the gargoyles do pose a problem because they "are jump infantry in all respects" JUST LIKE A FLYRANT, they are using the exact same biomorph to gain this advantage, they never say in their rules they aren't infantry, so per the FAQ they would be both infantry and jump infantry and would be affected by Jaws of the World Wolf.

This just gets sloppier and sloppier as we go along.

Wouldn't IN ALL RESPECTS make them lose the Infantry Type?

That's what happens when some donkeycave creates an 'allpowerfulsupamuthaluving deathray earthquake of doom' for a new army.

But do all please continue to discuss this in painstaking detail whilst I quietly thank the maker I don't know anyone with a space wolf army.

MeanGreenStompa wrote:That's what happens when some donkeycave creates an 'allpowerfulsupamuthaluving deathray earthquake of doom' for a new army.

But do all please continue to discuss this in painstaking detail whilst I quietly thank the maker I don't know anyone with a space wolf army.

I have a space wolf army!

-Cries in the corner-

Gwar! wrote:

MeanGreenStompa wrote:That's what happens when some donkeycave creates an 'allpowerfulsupamuthaluving deathray earthquake of doom' for a new army.

But do all please continue to discuss this in painstaking detail whilst I quietly thank the maker I don't know anyone with a space wolf army.

I have a space wolf army!

-Cries in the corner-

Yes, but you are far away in a caravan in Ireland and you wouldn't enjoy playing against me anyway, I don't take the game nearly so serious as you do. I do think the space wolves are sounding more and more outrageous each time I hear about them though, giant lolcat riders with two 'supersized' pks, laughing lunatic space wolfs that explodes and remove anything that fails a dice roll, shooty earthquake of doom that removes anything that fails an Initiative test. All kinda a bit flaky. At least the weirdboy evil eye power for orks is fairly random. The SW stuff just sounds poorly thought through.

Gwar! wrote:Wouldn't IN ALL RESPECTS make them lose the Infantry Type?

Then wouldn't IN ALL RESPECTS make a Hive Tyrant lose the Monstrous Creature Type?

This is the problem, that Monstrous Creatures have no special rules saying they can be 2 unit types but other things can't, so the winged biomorph should function the same for both Gargoyles and Hive Tyrants, either they both become two unit types, or they both become Jump Infantry only.

Drunkspleen wrote:

Gwar! wrote:Wouldn't IN ALL RESPECTS make them lose the Infantry Type?

Then wouldn't IN ALL RESPECTS make a Hive Tyrant lose the Monstrous Creature Type.

No, you are right. Kirthanth pointed that out to me, and it does seem one could argue that a Flyrant is no longer an MC >.>

Gwar! wrote:Now the problem here is that, as pointed out to me by kirthanth

wyomingfox wrote:So...for the record...Kirthanth was right

Gwar! wrote:No, you are right. Kirthanth pointed that out to me,

What the ?!

LOL

I cant flipping speel!

Gwar! wrote:I cant flipping speel!

looks like a typing lisp...

kirsanth wrote:

Gwar! wrote:Now the problem here is that, as pointed out to me by kirthanth

wyomingfox wrote:So...for the record...Kirthanth was right

Gwar! wrote:No, you are right. Kirthanth pointed that out to me,

What the ?!

LOL

He started it!
*Gos and pouts in the corner*

So a flyrant loses it's power-weapon attacks and extra d6 against vehicles? Seems a little absurd to me...

Something that might be relevant to this conversation is the difference between Wings and Jump Packs in Codex: Chaos Space Marines.

Models with Jump Packs are Jump Infantry, while models with Wings only move like Jump Infantry. So a Monstrous Creature with Wings moves 12", takes dangerous terrain tests and so on without the benefit of Move Through Cover, and an Independent Character with Wings can join a unit in a transport.

But an Independent Character with a Jump Pack would be immune to the Jaws of the World Wolf.

Discs of Tzeentch also make an Independent Character Jump Infantry...

willydstyle wrote:So a flyrant loses it's power-weapon attacks and extra d6 against vehicles? Seems a little absurd to me...

Surely, this is what I was alluding to before . . . And unless I am mistaken this has been gone over in other threads.

As a note, this is why I do not use a Flying Tyrant any more (than I pay for Leaping on Tyranids).

The arguement can go either way - from what I have read - but with this new (oh so fun) power it becomes relevant again.

Unless I miss something.

It should be noted that few would deny the Tyrant MC status (even with wings), but now there are reasons not to want it.
So, I just sidestep the issue by not fielding them.

Yaay for more problems with Tyranids! They are just too strong in 5e!

(wyomingfox sig FTW!)

Edit: Sorry, posted without noticing the thread was at 3 pages. Gwar's mistake has been corrected.

Da Boss wrote:Winged MCs do not become Jump Infantry. They move as jump infantry. Otherwise they'd lose all their MC rules, like ignoring armour saves and rolling an extra dice.
Broadsides are infantry, as are all Tau troops choices. Troops choices aren't worth killing now?
The real problem with Rune Priests is the combination of decent offense with the best defense in the game at such a low cost.

Read the Tyranid codex please. Or the previous posts.
As I wrote, Tyranids with wings do indeed become Jump Infantry - in all respects.
Even MCs.


Oh ninja'd by Da Boss

LOL

According to the Tyranid Codex a Winged Tyranid becomes a Jump Infantry model in all respects.

rogueeyes wrote:This is something great for the Tau ... unless it hits broadsides who are regular infantry.

Now adding wings to a Monstrous Creature - such as a Demon Prince - makes that unit move like jump infantry but it is still a monstrous creature. So would this rule affect them or not? I haven't seen the rule yet but it got me to thinking about different cases. I'd have to double check the Tyranid codex to see if it works the same way as a demon prince when adding wings.

Broadsides would get blasted.

Winged Princes move "Like" jump pack infantry not "count as"

Da Boss wrote:Edit: Sorry, posted without noticing the thread was at 3 pages. Gwar's mistake has been corrected.

Errm, what mistake?

The one about Winged MCs.

Da Boss wrote:The one about Winged MCs.

The one where I said they are Jump Infantry and an MC until Kirsanth pointed out the idiocy of the nid Codex?

That'd be the one.

Gwar wasn't wrong, he was merely "incorrect"!