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Delephont wrote:

Kilkrazy wrote:TBH love for GW kinda depends if you're an SM player or not.

The rest of us have to wait years for sometimes minor codex updates.

If GW went bust tomorrow the world would keep turning.

Much as it hurts me to say this......if GW did go bust tomorrow, it would leave a gaping void, and it would seriously damage the hobby!

I don't say this because I think GW is the best product out there! However, WH40K and the rest of the products are the best MARKETED wargames currently availible. If they vanished, alot of people who currently only know GW items would be left in a void.

None of the other contenders are in a position to take the reins just yet, not even the likes of PP could fill the void, imagine all the hobby shops closing over night......

Like them or loathe them, we need them in the short to medium term!

I'm not sure we do.

20 years ago there were a lot more independent hobby shops around, in the UK anyway. I know general retail changes have affected things, but the spread of GW can't have helped as it soaks up game and model dollars that might otherwise get spent on alternatives.

GW attract an awful lot of 12 year old n00bs, who don't bother to paint their armies, and give the game up in a few years. (Sorry for being elitist.)

Some players obviously break through and start playing other games too, but GW more and more discourage that sort of thing. If you look at the coverage now in WD and stores, about scratchbuilding and converting, it's less than a few years ago.

Marketing GW games well doesn't necessarily help the rest of the hobby.

I must add I'm not too worried, since as far as I can see, the non-GW hobby is bigger and more vibrant than ever. There's even a lot of historical plastics around now.

PanamaG wrote:

JohnHwangDD wrote:

Grim.Badger wrote:News from the blueshirts that I know is that GW have almost payed off their huge debts;

So should we take this to mean that the price increases will end?

Paying off your debts does not somehow make you immune to inflation.

Can I get some economics 101 in these threads people?

If inflation were like GW price increases, and my salary kept up, I'd have a solid six-figure income and be able to simply order GW minis built & painted to spec.

Also, I'd own a multi-million-dollar home, and drive a couple of six-figure cars.

If you haven't noticed, consumer prices are stable and net incomes are deflationary.

So maybe you can come back to this discussion when you actually PASS Econ 101?

Because there is no way that GW price increases have anything to do with inflation.

Welcome to the free market. You charge what it will bare. GW are still a proftiable company, therefore the market is baring their prices.

Additionally and whilst I remember, for a multinational, market leading company, GW's level of debt was miniscule. A great many companies dip in and out of debt all the time. It's all about Cashflow. It's not good doing say, £1,000,000 worth of trade in a month if it takes you 6 months to get it from your clients, which is surprisingly common.

GW's biggest boon is that they have traditionally always bought their machinery etc outright, rather than lease it, or get a bank loan. This makes them very resilient as a company (if you lease, and can't keep up repayments, the machine is taken back, utterly buggering you), not to mention an attrsctive prospect when seeking a loan, as they have a lot of collateral.

Kilkrazy wrote:

Delephont wrote:

Kilkrazy wrote:TBH love for GW kinda depends if you're an SM player or not.

The rest of us have to wait years for sometimes minor codex updates.

If GW went bust tomorrow the world would keep turning.

Much as it hurts me to say this......if GW did go bust tomorrow, it would leave a gaping void, and it would seriously damage the hobby!

I don't say this because I think GW is the best product out there! However, WH40K and the rest of the products are the best MARKETED wargames currently availible. If they vanished, alot of people who currently only know GW items would be left in a void.

None of the other contenders are in a position to take the reins just yet, not even the likes of PP could fill the void, imagine all the hobby shops closing over night......

Like them or loathe them, we need them in the short to medium term!

I'm not sure we do.

20 years ago there were a lot more independent hobby shops around, in the UK anyway. I know general retail changes have affected things, but the spread of GW can't have helped as it soaks up game and model dollars that might otherwise get spent on alternatives.

GW attract an awful lot of 12 year old n00bs, who don't bother to paint their armies, and give the game up in a few years. (Sorry for being elitist.)

Some players obviously break through and start playing other games too, but GW more and more discourage that sort of thing. If you look at the coverage now in WD and stores, about scratchbuilding and converting, it's less than a few years ago.

Marketing GW games well doesn't necessarily help the rest of the hobby.

I must add I'm not too worried, since as far as I can see, the non-GW hobby is bigger and more vibrant than ever. There's even a lot of historical plastics around now.

Long term - If other companies continue to grow, new ones emerge, and GW become less of the gaming market, there might come a time when GW going away wouldn't cripple the gaming industry. "long term" and "might" being very key phrases in that sentence.

Short term - Right now, the majority of FLGS's are hurting. Not dead, but hurting. A fraction of stores have closed, and more will follow. The economy is like a wolf, preying on the weakest part of the herd, and dragging them under. The majority should survive is this crap doesn't go on forever. But if GW were to suddenly go away, any store that got more than 20% of their sales from GW would be very hardpressed to continue in business. Stores going away hurts distributors and manufacturers of other games. The ripple effect is downright ugly. I saw it happen to the US comic book industry a decade ago. Lost 1/3 of the stores, and all but 1 distributor.

Right now, GW is a major support of the gaming industry, especially in stores that do a lot of tabletop gaming. I'm very glad to see them doing well. We need them to be doing well.

In my area of the world, we have lost 4 gaming stores in the last 12 months, and no new ones have opened. This is hurting a lot of gamers that suddenly have to go another 10-15 miles to hit a store. One interesting commonality to those 4 stores, 3 of them carried no GW, and the barely any GW instock. I know of about 8 more stores in the area, all of which carry GW at at least the stockist level.

Kinda confirms my fears, really.

I think alot of things could be improved at GW, but the bottom line, I guess, is right now there isn't a more successful gaming company out there.

We all slam GW for its money grabbing ideals, but on the flip side, thats what is really keeping them in the game and at the top.

I love some of the alternatives out there, and I'm sure they could survive in one form or another following the demise of GW, but I don't know how they could fill the "void" as I have called it, if GW went under....

At best, those few who have crossed over the GW fence, and actually explored the gaming market, could provide a limited income to the hobby suppliers, but its a sad fact, most people start and are happy to stay with GW!

Even *if* the comment heard by the OP is true (since when were blueshirts ever let in on the real financial information? And in any case, GW's debt was never "huge" compared to their balance sheet), this still doesn't mean a hill o' beans relating to the medium to long-term prospects of the company. At their 2009 y/e they owed around £12M to banks. £12M is a drop in the ocean compared to their £110M turnover. Paying it off would cost them around 1/4 of the annual wages bill.

Under the current market conditions it may be a very sensible decision to get the banks out of their hair - they are a right pain to deal with at the minute. On the other hand it is a bit indicative of their mentality that they can't find anything more creative to do with that cash other than give it back to the banks. Most commercial companies have more opportunities for investment (to generate a return more than the bank interest being charged) than there is loan facility available to them.

This would indicate a very prudent, cautious mindset on the part of the directors.

To put it into context, where I work we have loans outstanding of around £15M and a turnover of £5M. With no problems from the banks in relation to repayment schedules or refinancing.

Debt is not necessarily bad if you have reasonably predictable income streams with which to repay it and don't fall foul of your covenants. On the other hand, the banks are a bit of an administrative pain to deal with at the moment following the recent crash etc., so GW have possibly just decided to source their development capital elsewhere. Or maybe have decided their opportunities for investment will be limited to those they can meet from retained profits.

It augers well for shareholders anyhow. I would expect a return to dividends maybe this year or the next as they should be saving a few quid on the interest bill.

Cryonicleech wrote:Well, good for them to be out of debt.

But, I sincerely hope that they actually bring prices DOWN for a change.

I remember when Codexes were only $20 and Land Raiders were $45...

Not to date myself but I remember getting 2 landraiders for $35 and 3 rhinos for $35 the codex was $20 but it was a big tome not a pamphlet.

PanamaG wrote:Who says noobs care how quickly prices have gone up?

i can tell you right now noobs dont care because:

noob= ignorant,arrogant and rude person. emphasis on the ignorant bit.

newb= new person to something(like warhammer).


seriously people need to get they're noobs/newbs straight.

Marshal2Crusaders wrote:

PanamaG wrote:Because people have nothing better to do.

Wait until you have been posting longer you will realize it for yourself. 90% of posts on forums are made because people think other people will give a crap about what they have to say when the opposite is true.

And then you have the "Dakka Queens" which post all the time but only to cause drama (ex. my last post)

Irony.

Ironic Irony...

...oh wait... damn. Did it myself.