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Fantasy seems... [Mod Edit - That's really not an appropriate use of that word]. Dwarves, elves, wizards, dragons? It reaks of overweight social rejects sitting in their parent's basement because no one will talk to them.

From a gaming point of view, the game seems solid. Too bad a few codices have thrown the whole game balance out the window. The national tournaments are dominated by Daemons and VC

From a modeling point of view, WHFB is getting better. Some of the new Chaos Knights and Dark Eldar almost seem "cool". But too many choices are still only available in pewter. Which I hate to model, paint, or play with. Plus, It's FAR easier to convert and do crazy things with 40k than with WHFB. Ever try converting a unit of solid metal models? 40k in general lends itself to "counts as" and other creative conversions. Whereas WHFB does not. It's rare to see a block of fantasy troops with heavy conversions. What are you going to change? Their spears into pitchforks?? Just doesn't happen often.


Just my 2 cents.

I don't think fantasy having LotR sat on the shelf next to it as LotR is actual Tolkein fantasy as opposed to Tolkeinesque fantasy. I think this shows in the (assumed) sales figures, which lean LotR's way.

Given that they are both fantasy, why does LotR still outsell WHFB?

I'd love to build a Dark Elf army some day. The minis are fantastic. But the armies have 4 or 5 times as many models to paint, and I don't think I'll live long enough to paint an entire fantasy army.

That said, the latest plastic cold ones and corsairs are calling out to me again...

I gotta throw some Confrontation love into the debate; I enjoy the concept of fantasy games more than sci-fi, and Confrontation only required 8 - 15 models per side. That was easy enough to do.

George Spiggott wrote:Given that they are both fantasy, why does LotR still outsell WHFB?

How did you find this out?

Manchu wrote:How did you find this out?

I didn't. It's always brought up as fact by people arguing that LotR shouldn't be dropped. That's why it's "assumed"

I see. Is there actually talk of dropping LotR? In the face of impending Hobbit movies even? Sounds like paranoia. I can't imagine LotR outselling WFB given all the diehard support for Fantasy (that admittedly does not translate into sale like 40k gets). I also cannot imagine GW dropping LotR, given the outstanding support they've piled into it so far--namely, a lot more than any specialist game has ever gotten. To kind of get back on topic (and throw more weight behind Spiggott's assumption), however, I'd rather spend money on LotR than Fantasy.

I don't play Fantasy anything mainly because I'm sick to death of it. I've RPGed fantasy games (D&D, AD&D, Palladium fantasy, Harn) until I couldn't take it anymore. I started at 13. I'm considerably older now.
I'm also an MMO player (WoW, EQ, EQ2, WAR, LotRO,etc....), well I was but all of it is fantasy, with a few exceptions that are either so bad or so annoying I don't even bother.
Back to WHFB and LotR fantasy specifically. There's several WHFB armies that interest me but I can't bring myself to sit down and read the rules and fluff. I don't even bother with WHF novels anymore.
The fact that the few players around here that do play WHFB are Daemon players or VC players doesn't help.
With LotR, it has zero interest to me. I saw the movies, I've read the book(s) (never again), I don't want to play the game now.

But! It's not gonna stop me from buying some of the cool models from the WHFB. Like some of the new Skaven stuff! Who knows, they are so far out of the fantasy norm maybe I'll give them a go (and get creamed by the Daemon/VC players at the store that love crushing people).

I have a greater affinity for Fantasy settings over Science Fiction/Fantasy, be it books or films

I think that's mostly the reason why. A lot of us are probably just tired of Fantasy settings in general. If I was still in middle school then yeah, but sci-fi is more "appealing" to me. I don't hate WHF, I'm just sick of hobbits and Harry Potter at the moment so I'm more focused on 40k.

That, and I simply don't have the cash to buy multiple armies for multiple systems. If I get another 40k army then I have more variety for playing 40k, if I get a WHF army then not only will it not see much use (WHF not being very popular in my area either), but I'll still be limited to just one army for either game.

I just don't see how anyone can not enjoy a game of Fantasy?

Well, from what I hear, there's no point in playing anything but Daemons. When one army is dominating the scene and you don't play that army then I can imagine it might not be enjoyable.

most of the armies i would consider getting haven't got very good models for their core units.

Yeah, that too.

It reaks of overweight social rejects sitting in their parent's basement because no one will talk to them.

Yeah, exactly! 40k isn't like that at all!

It doesn't matter which game you play, everyone thinks you're a social reject or queer. They don't really care if you're pushing around tanks or dragons...

Sidstyler wrote:

It reaks of overweight social rejects sitting in their parent's basement because no one will talk to them.

Yeah, exactly! 40k isn't like that at all!

It doesn't matter which game you play, everyone thinks you're a social reject or queer. They don't really care if you're pushing around tanks or dragons...

40K makes me think of this more.

Sidstyler wrote:It doesn't matter which game you play, everyone thinks you're a social reject or queer. They don't really care if you're pushing around tanks or dragons...

Is that a subtle request for a Care Bears and unicorns army?

"My unicorn wizard just cast 'Friendship' with total power. Suck on that loser!"

@mattyboy22 - your picture made me gag! Who the feth IS that? (gak! Hope it's not you, and I've just insulted you...)

I don't play fantasy because no-one I know plays. I love the setting more than 40K though, I grew up on warhammer fantasy roleplay (awesome game).
Also, it means building two sets of scenery - not enough space or time for that, sadly.

Albatross: The only additional building you'd need would be, well, buildings. And generic adobe
houses fit either setting. Otherwise, you simply put more forests and linear stuff as opposed
to stuff that skirmish models can get around, and you're gold.

I don't play fantasy cause I hate moving the stuff around in big blocks....

I stopped playing Fantasy because GW appears to have Squatted my Dogs of War.

When they resolve the DoW issue by giving me a new Army Book, I'll reconsider coming back in.

No time, no cash. Don't spend enough time on my 40k guys as it is.

Rico...

Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:I know it's most likely down to personal tastes, but I do find Fantasy to be a far more satisfying game. I have a greater affinity for Fantasy settings over Science Fiction/Fantasy, be it books or films (barring Star Wars, which is clearly made of WIN). The 'more to it' movement rules, the presence of applicable Psychology (in so far as you might never need to throw a punch in HTH to force your opponent from the field), and that I somehow find the character more heroic.

The system donesn't appeal to me. The movement is fiddlely, and is a consistent source of arguements (That's TOTALLY flank, man!), and the people playing it always seem to be the people whom you wouldn't want to play in the first place.

Guns, tanks, and explosions are more appealing than dwagons anyway. If anything, listening to podhammer has cemented my position as an anti-fantasy player. They report a definite shift towards toyhammer (large undercosted monsters like the hydra, stegadon, and stardragon, etc...) that doesn't appeal to me.

And 40k hasn't, with all the land raider variants and dreadnoughts, the valkyrie release, the rumored trygon for Tyranids, etc.? 40k has big toys, too.

And the hydra is awesome, kiss my ass.

JohnHwangDD wrote:I stopped playing Fantasy because GW appears to have Squatted my Dogs of War.

When they resolve the DoW issue by giving me a new Army Book, I'll reconsider coming back in.

I'm tempted to post anti-DoW sentiment similar to the anti-DE crap that you yourself are so fond of, but I don't really care enough to. I'll give it a shot anyway.

Um...Dogs of War sucked. I'm glad they're gone, now we have more release slots for EMPIRE YEAH!

...it still doesn't fill the DE-shaped void in my soul.

Oh, please. When GW takes your DE army off their list of armies on the website, and then tells you that you aren't welcome to play your army at their official events, then you might have some basis to poke at my DoW. Otherwise, you go ahead and take your 100% GT legal and supported at GW-event army to their UK GT and tell me how life is so tough with a 100% legal Codex updated within the last decade.

In the mean time, I'm going to continue holding the DE rumors to the standard of "put up, or shut up". If/'when the DE move past mere talk, then we'll see.

Albatross wrote:@mattyboy22 - your picture made me gag! Who the feth IS that? (gak! Hope it's not you, and I've just insulted you...)

I don't play fantasy because no-one I know plays. I love the setting more than 40K though, I grew up on warhammer fantasy roleplay (awesome game).
Also, it means building two sets of scenery - not enough space or time for that, sadly.

I typed "stupid goth kid" into google images and that was #1, so I guess it's some stupid goth kid!

Valhallan42nd wrote:
The system donesn't appeal to me. The movement is fiddlely, and is a consistent source of arguements (That's TOTALLY flank, man!), and the people playing it always seem to be the people whom you wouldn't want to play in the first place.
.

That's a people problem. Those same people who argue flank in Fantasy probably argue
TLOS and cover saves in 40k. Flank is easy to determine as all you need to do is take a
straight edge and run it at a 45 degree angle from the target. If more than half the chargers
are in the front, it's a frontal charge. Otherwise, flank.

Basically, you have a problem with people who don't read rules. I'm sure they're just
as fun to play in 40k (meaning, not).

Anyway, "put up or shut up" is one thing, I wish they'd stop with the bs myself, but it does seem like you and others are actively campaigning against a release, hence the frustration.

mattyboy22 wrote:I typed "stupid goth kid" into google images and that was #1, so I guess it's some stupid goth kid!

It most certainly is not. "Goth" maybe, but I don't know how many "real" goths would wear such stupid hair or listen to ICP.

I purchased a WHFB starter set about six years or so ago but only ended up playing a couple of starter scenarios with my brother. Learned the rules back then and they seemed all right but to be honest the whole fantasy genre didn't appeal to me until Peter Jackson's LOTR movies. Tried reading the books, played a bunch of D&D, and other fantasy related stuff like World of Warcraft/Everquest however if there's a suitable sci-fi alternative thats what really up my alley.

Also preferred 40k's fluff but then again I am heavily biased towards scifi as opposed to fantasy. Another big factor going against me investing further in WHFB is the cost itself but time will tell if I get bored with 40k and SH.

If I did start it up, it'd be hard for me not to start up a Bretonnian force since a cavalry heavy army looks so cool on the tabletop. Hmm...

I play Fantasy, in fact it's my main game, but it tends to be

A: More Complicated
B: More Expensive
C: More Time-Consuming
D: Fluff that's not up to par with 40k (I love Fantasy Fluff, but 40k Fluff is just so much better)
E: The Ranking system is not popular
F: The models aren't as dynamic (They're working on that)
G: Have rulings that cannot always be answered (But 40k has WAAAY more of these)
H: Sci-Fi is generally more popular
I: Is currently going through a bump thanks to the new codexes beating the living hell outta the older ones.

Regardless, I still love Fantasy.

Fantasy seems less strategic and less balanced, I like the 40k fluff better, and the new Empire State Troops are significantly worse than the old ones.

Fantasy was always interesting to me, but our group found it more fun to grab a 2nd, 3rd, 4th or even 5th 40k army before we started on a new game.

Fetterkey wrote:Fantasy seems less strategic and less balanced, I like the 40k fluff better, and the new Empire State Troops are significantly worse than the old ones.

I disagree on strategic, but Amen to those state troops!

Damn fugly if you ask me...

I PLAY both, but 40k definitely appeals to me more. I like the look and feel of regiments marching to war that fantasy has. I also like magic as a game balancing system - and what I mean by that is the way it affects army building [how much magic defense? Should I worry about it? Should I roll with the punches and just bludgeon through it or try to protect myself?] and in-game actions.

What I HATE about fantasy is how ridiculous certain scenarios are. I remember when I charged my friend's chaos lord in the front with knights of the realm, the flank with knights errant, the other flank with grail knights, and the rear with my lord on hippogriff. EVERY single attack bounced off him harmlessly, and then he grabbed my general and broke him over his knee. End result?

Well he lost combat by like 15 or something of course and ran away. Obviously after watching the opponent's best knights' lances shatter against his armour and besting the best of them in combat without breaking a sweat, it's only natural that he'd be scared of their mounting numbers and flee, right? This makes NO sense to me, and while I don't wish for a return to herohammer days of one guy taking out unit after unit, I wish there was a rule in place where a hero fighting on his own was stubborn unless the enemy wounded them. They're still very unlikely to WIN combat in the current system against a ranked unit, but it allows them to stick around, feeling immortal as they slay rabble around them. There's still a chance to run away, and if they suffer a single wound, then they make a break test as normal with the usual modifiers as they realize they're not as invincible as they thought.

Another problem is how luck-based it is. In 40k you may miss some attacks. Your opponent may pass all his saves. Your khorne berserkers may lose against tau. Fine. It happens. But in 40k there's handfuls of dice being rolled at a time, so things usually go fairly close to the odds. In fantasy, when your charging unit has only like 5-6 dice to roll, missing all of your attacks isn't as far from an average roll as if you were, say, rolling 24. Simple standard deviations. They say it's all about maneouvering but when my dragon ogres get a unit of lizardmen in the flank and end up being chased down, it's pretty annoying that such a thing can end up happening as OFTEN as it does.

And it's because you are PUNISHED for your bad luck. Not only did you not kill the enemy, but your ineptitude has caused them to be victorious. Now not only are you making a break test, but your leadership is being penalized too. In 40k if nobody hurts anybody it's a draw. Here, if your 9 attacks hit twice and roll snake eyes, it sucks when the enemy doesn't even have to hurt you to win - you have a flank, they have numbers and a banner. Your leadership is now a paltry 7 and off you go.


It's a dice game. It's how it goes. But with so few dice being rolled these scenarios I find are all too common. It's what makes undead as scary as they are - they don't break. An unlucky combat round for them just means they'll have to spend more dice casting Invocation of Nehek next round, not lose their precious elite guard with their general and bodyguard hero with battle standard. Other posters have mentioned that they don't like buying 25 models so that 5 can fight while the others cheer them on. I agree. For a skaven player to effectively "kill" 5 of my chaos warriors [points of combat resolution] he need only to EXIST as a body of cheap infantry. My chaos warriors, for the same cost, must make up the deficit by rolling dice. In effect, he's already winning, and I have to hope I'm lucky enough to reverse the situation. With point costs being what they are and shooting taking its toll before combat, this is pretty much a losing battle. Cheap infantry just sits and waits for expensive infantry to flub their combat rolls, and then cash in on the incredibly expensive failure. If all 15 or so of my chaos warriors could fight, even against his 25 weak skaven, the odds would probably be more in my favor. Instead, 10 chaos warriors in the back provide the exact same bonus as 10 skaven, for many many times the cost.

Logic wrote:Dwarves,

Squats

elves

Eldar

wizards

Psykers

dragons

Spehhs Dragons (Void Dragon)


This is mostly for my entertainment, and I mean no offence to Logic's point

Sidstyler wrote:And the hydra is awesome, kiss my ass.

Heh! Thanks for proving my point.

Valhallan42nd wrote:

Sidstyler wrote:And the hydra is awesome, kiss my ass.

Heh! Thanks for proving my point.