Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

People still seem to have no idea why Palestinians hate others.

This link, http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/in_pictures/7815415.stm shows images of the tunnels Palestinians have used to keep their city supplied. Israel tightly controls what goes into the city under the guise of stopping weapons and explosives, but as you can see in the link the tunnels are mostly used to bring in food supplies, and even livestock. Why would Israel stop basic supplies entering? To punish the civilian population for the acts of militants. The result is that every time there's a border flare up gasoline, food and drink is cut off in Palestine. Because some nutter blew himself up in Tel Aviv, your kid sister won't have anything to eat tonight.

So some kid hates the English speakers. Well duh.

You do realize that the civilian population also supplies the militants, and has for a long long time?

While yes, there are innocents, there's also a far larger amount of people who are more than willing to strap on a vest and go blow themselves to kingdom come because "some nutter" tells them it'll make their lives better.

Fateweaver wrote:Unleash the Berserkers.

They don't care about leveling cities, they just want blood AND SKULLS!!!!!!!!!!!

I can see it now:

This just in: WE ARE fethed! Today the entire Middle East was completely eradicated by power armored militants claiming Skulls for the Skull Throne and Blood for the Blood God. More at 9.

Hell, would make news worth watching. I'd Tivo that gak and watch it over and over.

Kanluwen wrote:You do realize that the civilian population also supplies the militants, and has for a long long time?

While yes, there are innocents, there's also a far larger amount of people who are more than willing to strap on a vest and go blow themselves to kingdom come because "some nutter" tells them it'll make their lives better.

Again, duh. The issue is why the civilian population supplies militants, why some people have lives so awful that they're willing to believe that blowing themselves up for a dream of something better.

And the answer to that is very obvious to anyone who spends any time at all looking in to living conditions in Palestine.

sebster wrote:This link, http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/in_pictures/7815415.stm shows images of the tunnels Palestinians have used to keep their city supplied. Israel tightly controls what goes into the city under the guise of stopping weapons and explosives, but as you can see in the link the tunnels are mostly used to bring in food supplies, and even livestock. Why would Israel stop basic supplies entering? To punish the civilian population for the acts of militants. The result is that every time there's a border flare up gasoline, food and drink is cut off in Palestine. Because some nutter blew himself up in Tel Aviv, your kid sister won't have anything to eat tonight.

I like how you failed to mention that this isn't the situation on the West Bank. The Gaza Strip has been isolated in this matter since the take over by Hamas in 2007. You also fail to mention that the Gaza Strip has a border with Egypt, a fellow Muslim country, and it too has closed its border there. The issue isn't a blockade against the population because of random acts of terrorism, it is the power held by Hamas. This is largely agreed upon by almost all of the Arab countries....so no it is not just big, bad Israel and its Western friends....

sebster wrote:So some kid hates the English speakers. Well duh.

Your nonchalant attitude towards this situation is somewhat chilling...

JEB_Stuart wrote:I like how you failed to mention that this isn't the situation on the West Bank. The Gaza Strip has been isolated in this matter since the take over by Hamas in 2007. You also fail to mention that the Gaza Strip has a border with Egypt, a fellow Muslim country, and it too has closed its border there. The issue isn't a blockade against the population because of random acts of terrorism, it is the power held by Hamas. This is largely agreed upon by almost all of the Arab countries....so no it is not just big, bad Israel and its Western friends....

Egypt is basically a US client state, so I'm not sure what you're saying their support means.

I don't like Hamas, but I don't think the solution is punishing the civilian population by withholding food and medical supplies. I think it is one more example in the treatment of the Palestinians over a long period of time, which has unsurprisingly produced an environment friendly to violent reprisal.

Your nonchalant attitude towards this situation is somewhat chilling...

I'm not sure where you're getting nonchalant from. This is a very grave issue. Pointing out that Palestinians don't like Israelis and the US is something of a given, though. I could find a whole pile of Israelis pointing out that they don't like Palestinians or Arabs, and would expect same response.

What matters is what is driving that hatred, and it frustrates me because the causes are very clear.

sebster wrote:Egypt is basically a US client state, so I'm not sure what you're saying their support means.

I would hardly agree with that. It seems that a claim like that is a convenient cop out when faced with the fact that one of the regions most powerful nations is supporting this blockade and giving the "US/British/Israeli thugs" theory a sound thrashing. Regardless of this though, all of the major Arab countries in the area, with the exception of Syria, have all gone to great lengths to isolate the Gaza Strip until Hamas is either overthrown or stops demanding the annihilation of Israel... Are you prepared to claim that the Middle East is one big client state of the US, and that Syria is the only country that has the cajones to stand up for those poor Palestinians? That seems like a pretty long bow to draw....

sebster wrote:I don't like Hamas, but I don't think the solution is punishing the civilian population by withholding food and medical supplies. I think it is one more example in the treatment of the Palestinians over a long period of time, which has unsurprisingly produced an environment friendly to violent reprisal.

Well if you notice my first comment, the West Bank has a totally different situation...and a surprisingly peaceful relationship with Israel...

sebster wrote:I'm not sure where you're getting nonchalant from. This is a very grave issue. Pointing out that Palestinians don't like Israelis and the US is something of a given, though. I could find a whole pile of Israelis pointing out that they don't like Palestinians or Arabs, and would expect same response.

Its your "well duh" comment that struck me as nonchalant. Problems causing tension and violence is one thing, brainwashing children through TV programming is another. This kind of activity will only intensify the already existing problems between the Gaza Strip and Israel...

sebster wrote:What matters is what is driving that hatred, and it frustrates me because the causes are very clear.

Pointing fingers at just one side is ridiculous. I am not always a big fan of Israeli tactics, but you have to remember that the people of the Gaza Strip voted Hamas into power, and that is what sent this into a downhill spiral. The regions demands are very clear and simple: Stop demanding the destruction of Israel, especially in your party platform, and things will change for the better. There unwillingness to do so seems to point at a commitment to hatred more then reason...

Thats some messed up gak.

sebster wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:You do realize that the civilian population also supplies the militants, and has for a long long time?

While yes, there are innocents, there's also a far larger amount of people who are more than willing to strap on a vest and go blow themselves to kingdom come because "some nutter" tells them it'll make their lives better.

Again, duh. The issue is why the civilian population supplies militants, why some people have lives so awful that they're willing to believe that blowing themselves up for a dream of something better.

And the answer to that is very obvious to anyone who spends any time at all looking in to living conditions in Palestine.

When Israel was nothing but open kibbutzes the Palestinians were STILL constantly attacking them.

It doesn't take a damned rocket scientist to figure out what was going on then, when Israel was barely the size of Connecticut.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Oh by the way:

Maybe if they stopped dicking around and accepting money from terrorist organizations they'd be taken more serious as a "woe is us!" country.

JEB_Stuart wrote:You also fail to mention that the Gaza Strip has a border with Egypt, a fellow Muslim country, and it too has closed its border there.

See, that's one of those thought trains that needs to be derailed. The Muslim world is not any more united than the Christian world, and people need to stop pretending otherwise.

JEB_Stuart wrote:
The issue isn't a blockade against the population because of random acts of terrorism, it is the power held by Hamas. This is largely agreed upon by almost all of the Arab countries....so no it is not just big, bad Israel and its Western friends....

It isn't the power held by Hamas, its the tenuous nature of political relations with Israel. There is nothing to gain for any Arab state in helping the Palestinians as they necessarily risk Israeli reprisal through linkage; something which predates the current Hamas government. If the Israelis were actually willing to engage with their former enemies (especially Jordan) much of the issues implicit within the Palestinian problem could be circumvented.

JEB_Stuart wrote: the West Bank has a totally different situation...and a surprisingly peaceful relationship with Israel...

The massive concentration of Israeli forces within the region certainly doesn't hurt.

JEB_Stuart wrote: brainwashing children through TV programming is another.

I hate to break it to you, but all children are brainwashed to some degree. That's one of the necessary steps in terms of learning about one's world. Some people eventually escape the trap of what they've been taught, others do not. That is the way of things.

The program in question is problematic because it makes the issue difficult for the US, and the larger West, not because its empirically wrong.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Kanluwen wrote:
When Israel was nothing but open kibbutzes the Palestinians were STILL constantly attacking them.

The Palestinian people didn't exist at the time. Not as we know them today.

Regardless, it doesn't matter what did happen. This isn't a question of moral certitude. Its a question of something which is broken that must be repaired (well, should be, the US could just as easily wipe its hand of both parties).

Kanluwen wrote:When Israel was nothing but open kibbutzes the Palestinians were STILL constantly attacking them.

It doesn't take a damned rocket scientist to figure out what was going on then, when Israel was barely the size of Connecticut.

At what point during those rocket attacks was Israel following the terms of the 1979 treaty and no longer expanding settlements in Palestinian land?

Oh by the way:

Maybe if they stopped dicking around and accepting money from terrorist organizations they'd be taken more serious as a "woe is us!" country.

You seem to be assuming I want to defend Hamas or something. I don't. Hamas itself is a terrorist organisation. But the real question is why Hamas has power in Palestine... and the answer to that comes from the situation the Palestinians are placed in by Israel.

Ultimately you have to look at who has power, and who has power to change the situation as it is right now. The reality is that it is not conceivable for an isolated, impverished country with huge unemployment to suddenly stop all of its citizens being violently resentful. But it is within the power of a wealthy, politically stable country to stop taking land off its neighbour, and to stop making it so difficult for them to find a little prosperity.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

JEB_Stuart wrote:I would hardly agree with that. It seems that a claim like that is a convenient cop out when faced with the fact that one of the regions most powerful nations is supporting this blockade and giving the "US/British/Israeli thugs" theory a sound thrashing. Regardless of this though, all of the major Arab countries in the area, with the exception of Syria, have all gone to great lengths to isolate the Gaza Strip until Hamas is either overthrown or stops demanding the annihilation of Israel... Are you prepared to claim that the Middle East is one big client state of the US, and that Syria is the only country that has the cajones to stand up for those poor Palestinians? That seems like a pretty long bow to draw....

Hang on, are you saying that US military aid to Egypt isn’t a factor in their policies? Egypt is the second biggest beneficiary of US aid, after Israel. We’re talking about tens of billions of dollars. How is saying ‘Egypt is influenced by receiving tens of billions in military aid from the US and this leads to it following the US/Israel policy on Egypt’ a cop out?

Well if you notice my first comment, the West Bank has a totally different situation...and a surprisingly peaceful relationship with Israel...

A peace treaty that coincided quite nicely with Israel abandoning its settlements in the area.

Its your "well duh" comment that struck me as nonchalant. Problems causing tension and violence is one thing, brainwashing children through TV programming is another. This kind of activity will only intensify the already existing problems between the Gaza Strip and Israel...

It was meant as being very nonchalant to the idea that Palestian children are brought up to hate Israel. I think we’re all aware that people strap bombs to themselves and set them off in Jewish market places. Going on to then focus entirely on that hatred and not the root cause of it is going to end up with some very poor conclusions.

‘Well, duh’ probably wasn’t the most complete way of saying it, but sometimes brevity has its reasons.

Pointing fingers at just one side is ridiculous. I am not always a big fan of Israeli tactics, but you have to remember that the people of the Gaza Strip voted Hamas into power, and that is what sent this into a downhill spiral. The regions demands are very clear and simple: Stop demanding the destruction of Israel, especially in your party platform, and things will change for the better. There unwillingness to do so seems to point at a commitment to hatred more then reason...

It isn’t pointing fingers at just one side. It is asking the one side with the power to change to change.

What?

Israel has attempted to change. There have been multiple times where Israel has ceased fire, relaxed the security around the Strip and opened it up as much as possible.

And what did they get? Rocket strikes at a dance club, schools, suicide bombers on buses and snipers opening up at schoolchildren.

Screw Palestine. They've had their chances, repeatedly. They've been offered amends and they choose to continue with this martyrdom bull because it gets their big brothers in the Islamic world to continue funding their operations.

Kanluwen wrote:What?

Israel has attempted to change. There have been multiple times where Israel has ceased fire, relaxed the security around the Strip and opened it up as much as possible.

And what did they get? Rocket strikes at a dance club, schools, suicide bombers on buses and snipers opening up at schoolchildren.

Screw Palestine. They've had their chances, repeatedly. They've been offered amends and they choose to continue with this martyrdom bull because it gets their big brothers in the Islamic world to continue funding their operations.

Let's say we're neighbours. We have some troubles as neighbours, and a big part of this is me building a shed in your backyard. We get in a punch up, the police then break it up. We agree that we'll stop punching each other, and that I'll take my shed down.

30 years later, not only is my shed still there, I'm constantly expanding it. We still get in punchups. It would make absolutely no sense for me to claim 'but we've agreed to a ceasefire' while I keep breaching the terms of that agreement.

Yet that's what you're doing. Israel is still building settlements in breach of the 1979 peace treaty.

Personally, I say we tell Israel to shove off as well. Why are we giving them money again?

dogma wrote:Personally, I say we tell Israel to shove off as well. Why are we giving them money again?

Because the Jewish lobby in Washington is really clever.

Actually, I've always blamed the role Israel played in the Cold War/Theagan Revolution. All those old warhorses love their prior allies.

sebster wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:What?

Israel has attempted to change. There have been multiple times where Israel has ceased fire, relaxed the security around the Strip and opened it up as much as possible.

And what did they get? Rocket strikes at a dance club, schools, suicide bombers on buses and snipers opening up at schoolchildren.

Screw Palestine. They've had their chances, repeatedly. They've been offered amends and they choose to continue with this martyrdom bull because it gets their big brothers in the Islamic world to continue funding their operations.

Let's say we're neighbours. We have some troubles as neighbours, and a big part of this is me building a shed in your backyard. We get in a punch up, the police then break it up. We agree that we'll stop punching each other, and that I'll take my shed down.

30 years later, not only is my shed still there, I'm constantly expanding it. We still get in punchups. It would make absolutely no sense for me to claim 'but we've agreed to a ceasefire' while I keep breaching the terms of that agreement.

Yet that's what you're doing. Israel is still building settlements in breach of the 1979 peace treaty.

And what has Palestine done to enforce the peace treaty?

Oh...right.
Suicide bombings, rocket strikes, opening fire on children, carbombs...

The neighbours analogy doesn't really work.

It'd be more like...hrm. Let's say we share an apartment complex. I've paid my dues to get access to the pool area, and have then pushed for improvements to the pool.

You then decide that you don't like the improvements to the pool area and then...

Well then you go crying to five nations that you know will support an unfounded claim and declare an all out war against one tiny, undertrained country which has the population density of Minnesota--and then proceed to get smashed.

dogma wrote:See, that's one of those thought trains that needs to be derailed. The Muslim world is not any more united than the Christian world, and people need to stop pretending otherwise.

I was using the expression for the sake of the argument. I completely understand the tense divisions that fracture the Middle East and the Muslim world in general. Trust me, hearing about how the Jews and the Christians oppress the muslims in the ME is enough to drive one crazy, and this is just one example of how stupid that argument is. Don't forget, I live in California, where crazy ideas are served and consumed en masse....

dogma wrote:It isn't the power held by Hamas, its the tenuous nature of political relations with Israel. There is nothing to gain for any Arab state in helping the Palestinians as they necessarily risk Israeli reprisal through linkage; something which predates the current Hamas government. If the Israelis were actually willing to engage with their former enemies (especially Jordan) much of the issues implicit within the Palestinian problem could be circumvented

Considering all of them maintain good relations with the Fatah government but not Hamas run Gaza Strip, there seems to be a problem with your claim. Isolation of the strip is clearly, indeed it is the only reason as listed by these countries, the EU, the US, etc, tied to Hamas' dedication to the destruction of Israel.

dogma wrote:The massive concentration of Israeli forces within the region certainly doesn't hurt.

Neither do Pres. Clinton's strong efforts in 1994, or the fact that King Abdullah II is committed to modernization and better relations. Old wounds don't heal that quickly, but the level of trust and friendship between Jordan and Israel is building slowly.

dogma wrote:I hate to break it to you, but all children are brainwashed to some degree. That's one of the necessary steps in terms of learning about one's world. Some people eventually escape the trap of what they've been taught, others do not. That is the way of things.

I was specifically referencing children's programming. I can hardly agree that the Looney Tunes are comparable to this horrific display. Of course everyone has social conditioning as a child, but this is on a much more disturbing plane....

dogma wrote:The program in question is problematic because it makes the issue difficult for the US, and the larger West, not because its empirically wrong.

Telling kids to idolize a mother who blew herself and 5 Jews up is not wrong? Pardon me but, WTF?

sebster wrote:Hang on, are you saying that US military aid to Egypt isn’t a factor in their policies? Egypt is the second biggest beneficiary of US aid, after Israel. We’re talking about tens of billions of dollars. How is saying ‘Egypt is influenced by receiving tens of billions in military aid from the US and this leads to it following the US/Israel policy on Egypt’ a cop out?

Well considering its highly publicized criticism and and non-cooperation with the invasions of Afghanistan and Iraq, its continued level of criticism over their subsequent occupation and reconstruction, I would say that they aren't a client state as you claim. Relations have been downright tense at some points for the last few years. I am not dismissing the immense aid the US has given to Egypt, but I think it is unfair to the Egyptian government to say that they are little more then puppets of the US, especially given their track record of criticism.

sebster wrote:A peace treaty that coincided quite nicely with Israel abandoning its settlements in the area.

Might work better if Hamas wasn't a terrorist organization. But it is, and Israel, along with much of the rest of the world, won't touch that with a 10 ft pole...

sebster wrote:It was meant as being very nonchalant to the idea that Palestinian children are brought up to hate Israel. I think we’re all aware that people strap bombs to themselves and set them off in Jewish market places. Going on to then focus entirely on that hatred and not the root cause of it is going to end up with some very poor conclusions.

‘Well, duh’ probably wasn’t the most complete way of saying it, but sometimes brevity has its reasons.

I understand you better now, I just don't care for your wording. I was a little angered when I first read it. Thanks for the clarification.

sebster wrote:It isn’t pointing fingers at just one side. It is asking the one side with the power to change.

Hard to do with rockets falling on your heads....

I can see while Israel is reluctant to become more freindly with their neighbor nations, given they all attacked them at least twice.

As for the tunnels, every time supply convoys have been sent into the gaza strip it has been seized by HAMAS not isreal, hamas, and they complain that thier people don't get enough supplies.

JEB_Stuart wrote:Considering all of them maintain good relations with the Fatah government but not Hamas run Gaza Strip, there seems to be a problem with your claim. Isolation of the strip is clearly, indeed it is the only reason as listed by these countries, the EU, the US, etc, tied to Hamas' dedication to the destruction of Israel.

Good relations do not physical support make.

JEB_Stuart wrote:
Neither do Pres. Clinton's strong efforts in 1994, or the fact that King Abdullah II is committed to modernization and better relations. Old wounds don't heal that quickly, but the level of trust and friendship between Jordan and Israel is building slowly.

We'll see what happens once the issue of Palestinian water rights is introduced.

JEB_Stuart wrote:
I was specifically referencing children's programming. I can hardly agree that the Looney Tunes are comparable to this horrific display. Of course everyone has social conditioning as a child, but this is on a much more disturbing plane....

It depends on which version of the Looney Toons you're talking about.

JEB_Stuart wrote:
Telling kids to idolize a mother who blew herself and 5 Jews up is not wrong? Pardon me but, WTF?

Why do you think its wrong?

JEB_Stuart wrote:Well considering its highly publicized criticism and and non-cooperation with the invasions of Afghanistan and Iraq, its continued level of criticism over their subsequent occupation and reconstruction, I would say that they aren't a client state as you claim. Relations have been downright tense at some points for the last few years. I am not dismissing the immense aid the US has given to Egypt, but I think it is unfair to the Egyptian government to say that they are little more then puppets of the US, especially given their track record of criticism.

Fair point, client state is perhaps something of an exaggeration. But Egypt certainly tows the line where it really matters, and ignoring the importance of that aid in their policy is important.

Hard to do with rockets falling on your heads....

I don't see how 'stop building settlements in somebody else's country' is harder to do when they're firing rockets. I would say it's quite an easy thing to stop doing either way, if you have the political will to stop it.

Except what Palestine wants is "stop building settlements in land that we CLAIM to own, but is really in your territory. And that doesn't mean just Israeli citizens, it means any Christian Palestinians too".

Oh no! We all know the language of their enemies, so any one of us could be one of THEM!

PS: If you want to work against the West to bring about its downfall, please call the following free phone number...

Kanluwen wrote:And what has Palestine done to enforce the peace treaty?

Oh...right.
Suicide bombings, rocket strikes, opening fire on children, carbombs...

Many of which were begun by non-state actors, whom the Palestinian authorities have minimal resources to stop. The most recent rocket attacks were begun by non-state actors, after Israel tightened quarantine. In response to the attacks Israel stopped all supplies including medicine, then began limited offensives into the country. This led to Hamas firing its own rockets.

Hamas, or any government of Palestine, is simply not in a position to stop all non-state actors acting violently against Israel. As long as that is the standard for Israel to begin to honour the terms of its peace deal, the issue will never be resolved.

The neighbours analogy doesn't really work.

It'd be more like...hrm. Let's say we share an apartment complex. I've paid my dues to get access to the pool area, and have then pushed for improvements to the pool.

You then decide that you don't like the improvements to the pool area and then...

Umm, no, that's awful. No element in your analogy ties to any event or relationship. It's just bizarre, I can't even begin to see how that describes any part of the situation. What do the dues on the pool represent? What is the pool, what are the improvements to the pool? Are the 'improvement' the settlements? If so, what is going on that you think taking someone else's land and putting your own people there can be described as 'improvements'?

Meanwhile, you just said my analogy was bad, without ever bothering to explain why. Explain how the analogy fails, or ignore the analogy entirely and explain how building your own settlements in someone else's country isn't a major issue, and likely to end violently in any situation?

If Canada started building settlements in US soil, how would the US react?

Well then you go crying to five nations that you know will support an unfounded claim and declare an all out war against one tiny, undertrained country which has the population density of Minnesota--and then proceed to get smashed.

This relies on a belief that the political environment of the Middle East hasn't changed since the 1970s. If you think that Israel is under imminent threat of Arab invasion you really, really need to read some more modern material on the politics of the region.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

dogma wrote:Actually, I've always blamed the role Israel played in the Cold War/Theagan Revolution. All those old warhorses love their prior allies.

True, also a very big factor.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Kanluwen wrote:Except what Palestine wants is "stop building settlements in land that we CLAIM to own, but is really in your territory. And that doesn't mean just Israeli citizens, it means any Christian Palestinians too".

There's no 'claim' about it. The boundaries are explicit under the terms of the 1979 peace agreement, and Israel is not keeping to those boundaries.

Kanluwen wrote:Except what Palestine wants is "stop building settlements in land that we CLAIM to own, but is really in your territory. And that doesn't mean just Israeli citizens, it means any Christian Palestinians too".

You really need to expand your knowledge of Palestine before you get further into this.

Palestine isn't even a real place....

dogma wrote:Actually, I've always blamed the role Israel played in the Cold War/Theagan Revolution. All those old warhorses love their prior allies.

I've a feeling it also has a lot to to with how much the Christians on the Hill, in the House, and elsewhere like their free access to "The Holy Land".

Fateweaver wrote:Unleash the Berserkers.

They don't care about leveling cities, they just want blood AND SKULLS!!!!!!!!!!!

Ah yes the 40K equivalent of a neutron bomb.