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Timmah wrote:The tie against the one mech army he faced was a joke. It required the mech player to charge in close to his opponent. And it was pretty much a draw no matter what you were playing.


Also, your mech salamanders list isn't that great. You have pretty much no way to deal with long range shooting in it.

I said he used my army, not my list.. Nice try =P

Look at the table though, it was a ton of wrecked tanks barely outside of his deployment zone. He had to do that to get the tie, had it been a normal game he'd have been whooped on anyway.

Still waiting on this amazing mech list of yours.

Timmah wrote:So were there any competitive armies at this tournament?

Can you post an army that could beat mine?

It is easy to sit it your mothers basement and say what lists are good and what lists are not, but when you take them to a tournament in a take-all-comers environment, you might find that there is a gap between what works in theory, and what works in practice.

Timmah wrote:The tie against the one mech army he faced was a joke. It required the mech player to charge in close to his opponent. And it was pretty much a draw no matter what you were playing.

And as I said in the other thread, I played Shep before at his house in a Seize Ground mission with a Spearhead deployment and I beat him.

Mundar wrote:

Look at the table though, it was a ton of wrecked tanks barely outside of his deployment zone. He had to do that to get the tie, had it been a normal game he'd have been whooped on anyway.

Are you talking about the mass of tanks that all moved forward into a big line to block the middle and play for the tie?

Also, beating IG once does not make your list good against mech. Heck, IG mech is more gunline and static than most mech lists like eldar. And before you say anything, that 4 tank eldar list you beat does not qualify as mech eldar.

I have actually played Gunline tau against an army very close to yours. And I can consistantly come close to tabling it every game. (oh look I can post random games that prove your army is bad just like you did to prove its good)

I'd been playing around with spam lists/flavors of the month/net builds the last few months, and when they work.. They work big. But they also can lose big. Its too rock-paper-scissors I've found.

I think I'm just going to go back to my old theory that a well practiced, balanced list beats the flavor of the month cookie cut spam nearly every time.

Timmah wrote:

Mundar wrote:

Look at the table though, it was a ton of wrecked tanks barely outside of his deployment zone. He had to do that to get the tie, had it been a normal game he'd have been whooped on anyway.

Are you talking about the mass of tanks that all moved forward into a big line to block the middle and play for the tie?

Also, beating IG once does not make your list good against mech. Heck, IG mech is more gunline and static than most mech lists like eldar. And before you say anything, that 4 tank eldar list you beat does not qualify as mech eldar.

I have actually played Gunline tau against an army very close to yours. And I can consistantly come close to tabling it every game. (oh look I can post random games that prove your army is bad just like you did to prove its good)

Where is the awesome list what would have cleaned house in the wild west shoot out?

I saw you managed to troll on 'ard boyz armies that were in the finals. And here you are doing it again on top table tournament armies from wild west. Its easy to say something sucks and not back up your claim..

So again, where is your amazing army list? Post 'er up!

For the record, I am talking about balanced lists. Most balanced lists take the most versatile/good unit and spam that. These are not balanced lists.

Here is your list of anti tank


2 Brightlances - long range
1 Eldar Missile Launcher - long range
2 Fusion Pistols
Shuriken Cannon
Singing Spear
Wailing Doom and assault
Pulse Laser
Eldar Missile Launcher - long range
5 Fusion Guns
Witchblade

War Walkers
Srength 6 shooting and outflank

You have 4 long range weapons that can deal with AV 13
And 2 that can deal with AV 14

Now, how do you kill predators, hammerheads ect from range? How do you get in close and kill these when people are smart and keep their tanks behind a wall of infantry/transports?

Yes, your falcon can zoom forward and drop your fire dragons. And they might pop one tank. But then your falcon and your dragons die. And, it being your only vehicle/legit thread to heavy armor, its going to take a lot of fire on turn 1 and your FD's are probably going to be dead in the water.


@Mundar

I am not talking about any one army, I am talking about any quality balanced mech army.

Mech space marines built correctly
Mech IG
Gunline IG
Mech Eldar w/seer council
Mech DE
Gunline Tau

Ect. I'm not going to post a bunch of army lists you should know already. I have commented and posted many as deck advice for new players ect

Just for reference, here is the list I brought to the Wild West Shootout that went 3-1-1, with the loss coming from Steve's 101st Drop Pod Army (the Space Marine Army that Blackmoor battled in this report):

IG:

CCS 3x Flamer, Standard, Plasma Pistol, Chimera
PBS +3 Psychers, Chimera
Vets 3x Melta, Chimera w/ HF
PCS 4x Flamer, Chimera
Inf Squad 1x Plasmagun, 1x AC, Commissar
Inf Squad 1x Plasmagun, 1x AC
Inf Squad 1x Plasmagun, 1x AC
Devil Dog
Devil Dog
3x Hydras
LR Executioner w/ PC Sponsons
LR Demolisher w/ PC Sponsons

Not a fully tuned list (mostly need to tune the CCS, dropping Plasma Pistol and Standard, and switch Flamers to Meltaguns, in that squad). Other than that, I found the list to be decent and fairly competitive. I suffered the loss to Space Marines mostly to a bad play on my part, and good plays on Steve's part.

I would like for Timmah to be more constructive in his criticisms. Blindly saying something is bad is not constructive and adds nothign to the conversation. He should try to give battle reports as examples of good versus bad lists and generalship imo.

A balanced list may have some redundant units, but doesn't spam anything. That would defeat the point of balance. Spam lists spam the "most versatile/good" unit.

"Quality balanced mech" isn't the ultimate trump card.. Thats the concept you are failing to understand. "Quality balanced mech" doesn't crush anything it looks at, it is good. Yes. It works, yes.. Is it better than everything else? No. Can it be beat by a person with a balanced list they're comfortable with? Sure can.

You said " Besides Shep's IG (and possibly that one guys salamanders) I have yet to see and real/well built mech armies. I would honestly bet I could wipe the floor with most of these armies with either my mech SM or Tau. Makes me wish I had money/time to fly to these events." So that tells me you are confident in your list and ability. So, lets see the list that would have done all of that crushing you were talking about.

Why is it when people do their tournament reps, you offer pure critisism and little else? Trolling? Jealousy? Envy?

Timmah, yet again you're sitting here throwing stones at people who have won large events, without offering any constructive dialog or suggestions.

You answer requests for such with "i'm not going to do this, it's beneath me", but belittle the lists that seem to work for the people playing them, and offer no more than "the opposition must have sucked for you to win."

Anyone who has played in more than one 40k tournament knows that match-ups are far more important than lists, and that player skill can vary wildly, from the guys who are playing to have fun to those who are competing for the big prizes.

Let's assume, for sake of argument, that you're right. Let's say that Blackmoor's list does suck, and that he got lucky by playing a bunch of scrubs. Congratulations - this is the sum of your input to the thread. And it's worthless. Other than making yourself feel smug and superior to those players who actually went to the tournament, you've added nothing to the communal knowledge. At least they went and played some games and had some fun.

If we just concede that you're the greatest player and list-builder who simply doesn't want to attend events will you go away. Because your continual sniping at people who have done well is pretty pathetic when you think about it.

Mundar wrote:

Why is it when people do their tournament reps, you offer pure critisism and little else? Trolling? Jealousy? Envy?

Because I pointed out that his army would have trouble with pure mech/long range gunline that's trolling?

I said his list was not balanced because he had very little long range anti tank weapons (2 BL and 2 ML). So he would have had trouble with those types of armies.

Timmah wrote:For the record, I am talking about balanced lists. Most balanced lists take the most versatile/good unit and spam that. These are not balanced lists.

Here is your list of anti tank


2 Brightlances - long range
1 Eldar Missile Launcher - long range
2 Fusion Pistols
Shuriken Cannon
Singing Spear
Wailing Doom and assault
Pulse Laser
Eldar Missile Launcher - long range
5 Fusion Guns
Witchblade

War Walkers
Srength 6 shooting and outflank

You have 4 long range weapons that can deal with AV 13
And 2 that can deal with AV 14

Now, how do you kill predators, hammerheads ect from range? How do you get in close and kill these when people are smart and keep their tanks behind a wall of infantry/transports?

Yes, your falcon can zoom forward and drop your fire dragons. And they might pop one tank. But then your falcon and your dragons die. And, it being your only vehicle/legit thread to heavy armor, its going to take a lot of fire on turn 1 and your FD's are probably going to be dead in the water.


@Mundar

I am not talking about any one army, I am talking about any quality balanced mech army.

Mech space marines built correctly
Mech IG
Gunline IG
Mech Eldar w/seer council
Mech DE
Gunline Tau

Ect. I'm not going to post a bunch of army lists you should know already. I have commented and posted many as deck advice for new players ect

I think you are seriously underestimating the strengths of Blackmoor's list. All his firepower is completely mobile and can move forward 6" a turn to contest objectives or for better positioning without diminishing its volume or range. More importantly, he can slide backwards or sideways to maintain his spacing from mech assault units longer. As long as the Guardians are in the Avatar bubble, they are fearless and you have to kill all of them to make the heavy weapon go away. Not nearly as easy as killing 25% and forcing that LD8 test. The Harlequins are virtually immune to long range shooting (max spotting distance 24", average is 14") and the Warwalkers each throw out a hail of shoots that allows them to deal with AV12 reliably even though they are only S6 (24 shots, 12 hits, 2 glances BEFORE guide). While its not a typical power build, he has alot of options when playing objective missions, including the rare ability for his troops to take an oblique route to their end destination without sacrificing fire power.

Timmah wrote:

Mundar wrote:

Why is it when people do their tournament reps, you offer pure critisism and little else? Trolling? Jealousy? Envy?

Because I pointed out that his army would have trouble with pure mech/long range gunline that's trolling?

I said his list was not balanced because he had very little long range anti tank weapons (2 BL and 2 ML). So he would have had trouble with those types of armies.

And when asked several times to provide an example of what you'd have done yourself.. You follow up with more critisism.

Redbeard wrote:Timmah, yet again you're sitting here throwing stones at people who have won large events, without offering any constructive dialog or suggestions.

You answer requests for such with "i'm not going to do this, it's beneath me", but belittle the lists that seem to work for the people playing them, and offer no more than "the opposition must have sucked for you to win."

Anyone who has played in more than one 40k tournament knows that match-ups are far more important than lists, and that player skill can vary wildly, from the guys who are playing to have fun to those who are competing for the big prizes.

Let's assume, for sake of argument, that you're right. Let's say that Blackmoor's list does suck, and that he got lucky by playing a bunch of scrubs. Congratulations - this is the sum of your input to the thread. And it's worthless. Other than making yourself feel smug and superior to those players who actually went to the tournament, you've added nothing to the communal knowledge. At least they went and played some games and had some fun.

If we just concede that you're the greatest player and list-builder who simply doesn't want to attend events will you go away. Because your continual sniping at people who have done well is pretty pathetic when you think about it.

Thank you for tanking my comments completely out of context.

I did not say his list sucked. I said it would have trouble with any pure mech army. I said his list was not balanced because he has very little long range anti tank weaponry.

I did not say I would not post balanced lists on armies, I said I have done so many times before in the army building section of dakka.

I pointed out that blackmoor said that outflanking warwalkers allowed him to kill mech armies. To which I replied that most quality players can guard against outflanking, since this was his strategy against mech armies, then it follows that his opponents did not know how to guard against it and maybe were not all that good.

I pointed at his opponents and said they made many agreed upon mistakes. Like taking 1 lone tank or multiple tanks each with specialized roles.

I never said I was a great list builder or player. But I do understand the basics of building a solid list. And across all the battle reports coming in there were many building errors in a lot of the lists. Errors that would be agreed upon by many people if you put said lists into the Army help section. (taking 1 tank, no long range weapons ect)

Timmah wrote:
Now, how do you kill predators, hammerheads ect from range? How do you get in close and kill these when people are smart and keep their tanks behind a wall of infantry/transports?

The question you need to ask is what are hammerheads and predators doing to me? Killing a few guardians? Dropping a war walker? *yawn*

I have 4 strength 8 shots, and 2 strength 9 shots at range, and as you know, I can get close to use other weapons. And no, you can't sit at the back of the table and shoot unless it is a kill point mission. Sooner or later you have to try to get an objective, or contest mine.



So Timmah, if you were going to go the the Wild West Shootout, what would 1750 army would you bring?

Did I accidentally click into the Ardboyz thread or is Timmah making a complete ass of himself here too?

Let's see, you poo-poo'ed the Ard Boyz winner's list and now you're poo-pooing Blackmoor's list after he won the Wild West Shootout. Two generals winning with lists you think are crap....

And I can understand why you don't want to post a list, the last one you posted in the Ard Boyz thread was pretty much laughed at.

Ozymandias wrote:Did I accidentally click into the Ardboyz thread or is Timmah making a complete ass of himself here too?

Let's see, you poo-poo'ed the Ard Boyz winner's list and now you're poo-pooing Blackmoor's list after he won the Wild West Shootout. Two generals winning with lists you think are crap....

And I can understand why you don't want to post a list, the last one you posted in the Ard Boyz thread was pretty much laughed at.

Ah another person taking what I said ignoring it and pretending I said something else.

Wow you people get upset over your toy soldiers.

Timmah-

I think most players in tournaments would like to tell you one thing:

"Put up or Shut up"

If you think that the lists are not effective then go and start winning big tournaments.

Blackmoor does end up using lists and tactics that sometimes make me mutter "Huh?" when I read his reports. However, it is evident that those lists and tactics work for him.

Also, keep in mind that Blackmoor had some luck with his guided blightlances in a couple of games destroying some heavy armor. Sometimes a little luck is all that is needed to push a good General over the edge.

asugradinwa wrote:Timmah-

I think most players in tournaments would like to tell you one thing:

"Put up or Shut up"

If you think that the lists are not effective then go and start winning big tournaments.

Blackmoor does end up using lists and tactics that sometimes make me mutter "Huh?" when I read his reports. However, it is evident that those lists and tactics work for him.

Also, keep in mind that Blackmoor had some luck with his guided blightlances in a couple of games destroying some heavy armor. Sometimes a little luck is all that is needed to push a good General over the edge.

Asugradinwa knows how a subpar list on paper can surprise you. I faced him earlier this year with a footslogging berzerker horde and surprised him with a sub par list.
He is a really good player and had a solid list, but I just had too many berzerkers running across the board.

basicly by playing a different list. you take away "Know thy enemy"
and we all know what sun Tzu says about that.

Don't worry Timmah. While you have your smug theoretical self-assurance, Blackmoor will be just barely consoled by the Champion plaque on the wall.

+1 to Put Up or Shut Up. Timmah, your attitude is exactly what drives reasonable people away from this game, and you don't even have the chops to justify it.

Thanks for all the informative and well written battle reports ("crickets" lol), and congrats on the victory!

And to the defence of Timmah, I think most people have missed that he actually was less black-and-white with his comments then you give hem credit for.
I still think it's good to question a winners' list, it's good to want to analize why the list performed as well as it did. A lot of factors can influence the results, not the least of it the general of the army.
At first glance I have no clue why this army won the tournament: was it player skill, was it the list, was it the game scenarios, was it luck of the draw regarding opponent match-up? Reading these reports and replies to it give me a better idea.

I'm not a very experienced player so I took in a lot of internet advice (mech up, melta up, footslugging sucks). Most of that has some merit but apparently its'not the only way to do things.

GeneralRetreat wrote:Don't worry Timmah. While you have your smug theoretical self-assurance, Blackmoor will be just barely consoled by the Champion plaque on the wall.

+1 to Put Up or Shut Up. Timmah, your attitude is exactly what drives reasonable people away from this game, and you don't even have the chops to justify it.

I would love to put up, but sadly I have a job and can not fly across the country for a 2 day tournament. Does this make my opinions less valid? Not really. Its not like I don't play the game or anything.

And yes he does have that plaque on his wall so I hope that would console him from me questioning why his list performed the way it did. In short, no mech. Whats wrong with this analysis? Can any of you other people tell me why it performed so well? And don't reference player skill because everyone at the top tables should be close skill wise. Unless blackmoor is gods gift to 40k...

well where do you live? I am sure we can find a quality player to teach you about non standard list building

yes I went 3-1-1 at baltimore last year with no anti tank guys over 12"(6 combi meltas) on termicide and footslogging berzerkers.

+2 on the "put up or shut up" with out back up to your opinion you are just trolling.

Timmah wrote:
Ah another person taking what I said ignoring it and pretending I said something else.

Did I? Let's look at your first post in this thread:

Timmah wrote:So were there any competitive armies at this tournament?

Couple this awfully smug post with your history from the Ard Boyz thread and I don't think we're overstating things here. Look, I don't get how Blackmoor can win either, but to basically state that the reason he won is because all of his opponents were bad or had bad lists really belittles his ability. Sometimes, when you know what's expected, taking the unexpected can get you wins.

Wow you people get upset over your toy soldiers.

No, we get upset when people with skill are being belittled by people who haven't contributed anything of merit. Snarky posts don't make you a good critic. Post a list and a strategy for beating Blackmoor and let's discuss it (or laugh at you).

Ah but I do contribute Ozymandias. I have posted and worked with multiple people in the tactics and List discussion forums.

I'm sure you never go in there because you don't need any help because you are already the best you can be at this game and know everything.

"Look, I don't get how Blackmoor can win either"

So there must be a reason he won. The first and foremost is to look at what his opponents were playing. Obviously his list is pretty solid against foot armies. And lets look at what he played. There we go problem solved.

"Sometimes, when you know what's expected, taking the unexpected can get you wins."

This should never happen in a truly competitive environment. Building something unexpected should not work because your opponent should be able to see and counter your strategy since they have a list of your stuff right in front of them.


Does blackmoor really believe that 1-2 people saying his list sucks on the internet belittles his win? If so, maybe its not us, maybe its him knowing he got away with playing some outdated 4th ed list when he shouldn't have.

I Play a similar Eldar list to Blackmoor here in Chicago and I have had some good success. It's the Avatar with a bubble of 3-4 Guardian squads for heavy weapon fire and a Farseer for force multiplication. Our lists begin to diverge slightly from there, but the idea remains the same. The Avatar/Guardian bubble brings a strong core of scoring troops, fearless and toting heavy weapons. The Avatar protects against enemy assaults into your core while extending his fearless bubble to make it difficult to remove the scoring Guardians. The Farseer's powers of doom and guide make the guardians effectively BS 4.5 and thier shuriken catapults effectively str 5.5. That's potentially 18 shots that hit better than marines and wound better than heavy bolters and this is only from the 8pt guardian troop squads who cost 110pts each!!

5th edition cover rules, including going to ground, make these guardians much more survivable than in previous editions. Couple that with the 'mech phenomena' and these Eldar troop choices are living longer than ever in games. (For 8pt guardians that is) The mech resurgence has shelved everyones heavy bolter Dev/Havoc squads. We used to see tons of Heavy Bolter - tank hunting Dev squads in play which would shred these Guardians at range. No more so the Guardians live. Now I have just discussed 485pts of the army which controls objectives. Next is the other 1265pts in the army which is coming to kill you.

Lots of shots cause lots of wounds.

That is a viable army tactic that can cross army lists. Blackmoor does it through warwalkers, others can do it through Warp Spiders. Mech lists still need to dismount for max effectiveness. It's like the US winning a war with airpower alone,eventually you need to come down out of your pretty toys to do the real damage. 6 twinlinked brightlances and 3 fire prism templates will not do enough damage to the core troops to prevent objective taking. 3 prisma can be shaken until they lose a weapon, if not outright destroyed. Mech guard lists tend to get in each others way as the enemy advances into their lines. Mobility is not defined by who can move 12", it's defined as who can move the farthest and still cause damage to the enemy. Foot Eldar lists can move 6" with everything and still fire to max effect.


I started to ramble at the end here, sorry. The biggest thing is there is no one way. There are to many variables in each game to lay out a pure blueprint to success. You have to have certain 'problems' solved in your list and you have to know how to use them. You have to identify your opponents biggest threat and be able to kill it or stop it. Most army codex's can do that even if those units aren't the 'sexy' units.

DarthDiggler wrote:

Mech lists still need to dismount for max effectiveness.

This is may be true but its a terrible way of looking at it. Mech space marines barely lose anything without dismounting. In fact, the only time they do dismount is when they know they can kill the enemy their shooting at with little retaliation.

DarthDiggler wrote:
3 prisms can be shaken until they lose a weapon, if not outright destroyed. Mech guard lists tend to get in each others way as the enemy advances into their lines. Mobility is not defined by who can move 12", it's defined as who can move the farthest and still cause damage to the enemy. Foot Eldar lists can move 6" with everything and still fire to max effect.

3 prisms can be shaken with 4 heavy weapons? GL with that.


So what happens when an army like Tau or IG can outrange you the entire game, while shooting and shoots your Avatar off the table turn 1?
Avatars are not hard to kill and it sounds like you set your entire army around the fact that he won't die.

Timmah you still haven't said where you are from.

dakka research points to Lacrosse WI. that's an easy ride down to Chicago.

Ok Timmah. Here is an 1850pt Tau list you posted a battle report with. Is this the kind of Tau that will shoot the Eldar off the table?


My list
Commander MP/Plasma/Multi-tracker

3x Fireknives (MP/P/MT)
3x Fireknives (MP/P/MT)
3x Fireknives (MP/P/MT)

6 Firewarriors
10x Kroot, 7x kroot hounds
10x Kroot, 7x kroot hounds

2x Piranha, disruption pod x1, fusion blaster x2
1x Piranha, disruption pod x1, fusion blaster x1
8x Pathfinders, Devifish

Hammerhead, Railgun, disruption pod, burst cannons, Multi tracker
Hammerhead, Railgun, disruption pod, burst cannons, Multi tracker
2x Broadsides, A.S.S., Drone controller, Shield drone, gun drone


The Avatar will get Fortuned and draw a tremendous amount of fire accoring to your tactic of getting rid of the avatar. A Fortuned Avatar IS very hard to kill. Regardless I think is would be quiet close to turn 1 when you lose your 3 fragile scoring units and have to spend an uphill battle trying to eeke out a tie because you can't claim 1 objective.

Timmah wrote:
I have actually played Gunline tau against an army very close to yours. And I can consistantly come close to tabling it every game. (oh look I can post random games that prove your army is bad just like you did to prove its good)

No one cares about your results from a 5 person RTT timmah. Go to a real tournament and post some battle reports.

olympia wrote:

Timmah wrote:
I have actually played Gunline tau against an army very close to yours. And I can consistantly come close to tabling it every game. (oh look I can post random games that prove your army is bad just like you did to prove its good)

No one cares about your results from a 5 person RTT timmah. Go to a real tournament and post some battle reports.

Oh look, once again making up stuff to attempt to insult me. (also on a side note to ruin your logic, more people in a 5 game non swiss tournament doesn't make it more competitive)




And yes that tau gunline would shoot him off the table. Oh, you fortune the avatar? Ok, bye Eldrad. And I'll shoot you off turn 2.

Fragile troop choices? 2+ cover saves on 17 man units make them fragile? Troop squad in a very well protected transport is fragile is fragile? Sure...



And yes I could go to chicago when they have something. And I will if/when I have time. However some of use have jobs and need to be able to afford the trip. Not having enough money/time to make a trip to one of these things doesn't make my opinion less valid...