Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Frosty Hardtop wrote:I think where the confusion comes in is that "Nob" is an entry in the Ork codex, therefore, if something can be upgraded to a Nob, it stands to reason that it then follows the rules of that entry.

Nob isn't a class. It's a rank. Just like Space Marines have sargeants in their squads, Orks have Nobz in their squads, and have upgrades specific to their squad.

All Tankbustas, including the Nob, get Rokkit Launchas. Any Tankbusta can exchange his Rokkit Launcha for a Tankhammer, including the Nob. If he became a Nob from the Nobz entry, he should be fully upgradable, but he's not, because he's a Tankbusta Nob.

More notably, if he's somehow different from other Tankbustas because he's a Nob and have different wargear, then he shouldn't have a Rokkit Launcha to turn in for a Power Klaw.

No, because if you look at the wargear that the whole squad has, it is quite clearly listed as everyone gets a Rokkit Launcher, but a Nob in that squad has access to different war gear than a regular boy in that squad... through upgrades... which the whole squad does not get.

Where do people get the idea that upgrades have an order? This isn't a video game. There's no timeline at all, and nothing anywhere to support that there would be. If you have a guy who is upgraded to a nob, then he couldn't be given non-nob wargear. He doesn't start as a boy and then somewhere in the squad creation process become a nob. There is no limbo-state squad creation going on here. Either your squad has a nob or it does not. And if he's a nob, he's a nob and abides by their full restrictions.

Ordznik wrote:Why would a Tankbusta Nob not be a Tankbusta?

That's the crux of the problem right there.

GW have a terrible habit of using the same term to describe a unit and certain specific models in the unit. So a unit of Tankbustas, instead of being made up of a Nob and a number of Boyz, is made up of a Nob and a number of Tankbustas. (Well, assuming that you give them a Nob...)

So when the entry says 'One Tankbusta may...' it's left up to us to figure out whether they mean 'Tankbusta' as in 'one of the models referred to by the statline labeled 'Tankbusta'' or 'Tankbusta' as in 'a member of a Tankbusta unit'... The Nob is most definitely a Tankbusta (the latter)... but he's not a Tankbusta (the former).

In older codexes, this was generally moot, since they usually had a line restricting upgrade characters within squads from taking squad upgrade weapons anyway... But the newer crop of codexes have made it a little more problematic.

Frankly, I doubt you'll get a concensus on this. To some, it's obvious that the Options section is referring to the statline, to others it's obvious that the Nob is a member of the unit and so should be allowed the same options. Personally, I'm going with 'The Nob is a Tankbusta, as he is a member of the Tankbusta unit'... but would be happy to play it either way until GW get around to FAQing it.

Drudge Dreadnought wrote:Where do people get the idea that upgrades have an order? This isn't a video game. There's no timeline at all, and nothing anywhere to support that there would be. If you have a guy who is upgraded to a nob, then he couldn't be given non-nob wargear. He doesn't start as a boy and then somewhere in the squad creation process become a nob. There is no limbo-state squad creation going on here. Either your squad has a nob or it does not. And if he's a nob, he's a nob and abides by their full restrictions.

Look at the FAQ section on giving powerklaws to Shoota boy nobs and come back to us.

Da Boss wrote:Look at the FAQ section on giving powerklaws to Shoota boy nobs and come back to us.

Here is a thought, Look at the codex first.

For boyz, it says "The entire Mob" and "For every 10 Orks in the mob, one Ork may exhange his slugga or shoota for".

That is why the Nob There can.

Tankbustas say Tankbustas. A Nob is not a Tankbusta, so he can't.

It really is that simple.

Gwar! wrote:Tankbustas say Tankbustas. A Nob is not a Tankbusta, so he can't.

It really is that simple.

It's really not. Again, a Nob is a Tankbusta. He's just not a Tankbusta.

There is no 'right' answer on this one. Until GW get around to issuing an FAQ on unit upgrades and characters, this one is purely down to pesonal interpretation.

Gwar, tank hammer - thunder hammer, big leap

I would say pay for the hammer 1st, then upgrade the same boy to a nob.
so in theory, its still the a boy getting the upgrade, he will just be upgraded again soon after

Gwar! wrote:

Da Boss wrote:Look at the FAQ section on giving powerklaws to Shoota boy nobs and come back to us.

Here is a thought, Look at the codex first.

For boyz, it says "The entire Mob" and "For every 10 Orks in the mob, one Ork may exhange his slugga or shoota for".

That is why the Nob There can.

Tankbustas say Tankbustas. A Nob is not a Tankbusta, so he can't.

It really is that simple.

I'm not talking about rokkits and big shootas. I'm talking about power klaws. Check the FAQ. It give an order of upgrades.

Da Boss wrote:

Gwar! wrote:

Da Boss wrote:Look at the FAQ section on giving powerklaws to Shoota boy nobs and come back to us.

Here is a thought, Look at the codex first.

For boyz, it says "The entire Mob" and "For every 10 Orks in the mob, one Ork may exhange his slugga or shoota for".

That is why the Nob There can.

Tankbustas say Tankbustas. A Nob is not a Tankbusta, so he can't.

It really is that simple.

I'm not talking about rokkits and big shootas. I'm talking about power klaws. Check the FAQ. It give an order of upgrades.

Which doesn't apply to this scenario at all.
The nob makes a trade for a klaw, then the entire mob trades for shootas (but he can't, so he doesn't).
Or, the nob gets a shoota because he is part of the mob.

It doesn't clarify this argument about whether an upgraded character retains equipment, one way or the other.
If it had given as an example the mob trading for shootas THEN buying a nob upgrade (who was choppaless and couldn't buy a klaw OR had a fresh set of equipment unafected by the swap)... then we'd have something to go on.

Da Boss wrote:I'm not talking about rokkits and big shootas. I'm talking about power klaws. Check the FAQ. It give an order of upgrades.

Let's start by pointing out the multiple things wrong in that sentence:

1) It applies to Boyz Squads, nothing else.
2) It's not actually Rules.
3) Did I mention they are Unofficial House Rules that are not actual Hard Rules so mean absolutely feth all?

The Nob is a tankbuster in regards that he's in a tankbuster squad... thus a tankbuster nob with the rules that apply to those models in the tankbuster squad... he's a nob in terms of the wargear he has access to the list of wargear available to nobs in the tankbuster squad.

Gwar! wrote:

Da Boss wrote:I'm not talking about rokkits and big shootas. I'm talking about power klaws. Check the FAQ. It give an order of upgrades.

Let's start by pointing out the multiple things wrong in that sentence:

1) It applies to Boyz Squads, nothing else.
2) It's not actually Rules.
3) Did I mention they are Unofficial House Rules that are not actual Hard Rules so mean absolutely feth all?

The only way to properly resolve this is to use what happens when a Boyz have a problem with regarding order.

Gotta love GW. They FAQ a problem for Boyz, then create the EXACT SAME PROBLEM without fixing it.





And while the FAQs are not hard rules, here in the real world 99% of people/clubs follow them as if they were. So to answer your question in #3, 'not at all'.

Boss GreenNutz wrote:My question is why would you want to in the first place? A normal TB Boy gets a TH free. You have to pay the extra points for a Nob. If you just plan on keeping the Boy with a TH in a transport and run around smacking vehicles, there is no need to spend the points and make him a Nob.

Because a converted model of a tankbusta nob with a tankhammer would look killer.

I believe the whole nob shoota boy power claw thing in the GW faq answers this clearly. The tankbusta nob can have a tankhammer.

orkcommander wrote:
I believe the whole nob shoota boy power claw thing in the GW faq answers this clearly.

How, exactly? The fact that there is an order to the operations isn't the argument, and the FAQ doesn't address wargear choices taken before the nob upgrade at all.

edit-
Here's the faq answer, since people keep refering to it:
Q. If a Boyz mob exchange sluggas and choppas
with shootas, can a Nob take a power klaw or a
big choppa?
A. You may upgrade the Nob to have a big
choppa or power klaw before you choose to
upgrade the mob to have shootas, in which case
the Nob is not affected by the mob’s weapon
swap (as he no longer has a choppa to swap),
does not receive a shoota and keeps his slugga
and power klaw/big choppa instead. He is a lot
happier that way!

Gorkamorka wrote:How, exactly? The fact that there is an order to the operations isn't the argument,...

It's one of the arguments. There are a couple of different ones going on at the same time.

and the FAQ doesn't address wargear choices taken before the nob upgrade at all.

It does however suggest that the player can choose the order in which options are applied. In which case the argument that one of the Tankbustas can take a Tankhammer before being upgraded to a Nob becomes valid.


So, to summarise a little:

1) The Ork Tankbusta unit entry differentiates between 'Tankbustas' and the 'Nob'
2) A specific number of 'Tankbustas' may be given a Tankhammer.
. 2a) The 'Tankbusta' mentioned in this rule might be the model with the statline labeled 'Tankbusta' or
. 2b) The 'Tankbusta' mentioned in this rule might simply be a member of the unit called 'Tankbustas'
3) One model may be upgraded to a Nob
4) There is no rule saying that the Nob so upgraded loses whatever gear he had as a Tankbusta.
5) The FAQ suggests that the unit's options can be applied in whichever order the player wishes.

So:
If 2a is true, the FAQ allows you to give one Tankbusta a Tankhammer, and then upgrade him to a Nob.
If 2b is true, it doesn't matter which order you apply the Tankhammer... you can give it to any member of the unit.

Either way, the Nob can have a Tankhammer.


If we argue that 5 is not actually what the FAQ is suggesting, and that it in fact simply means that the Nob can be upgraded before the rest of the mob, but not the other way around, then:
If 2a is true, the Nob can't have a Tankhammer, as he is not a Tankbusta.
If 2b is true, he can, because he is a Tankbusta.

So wait..... Painboys can't have Heavy armour??? Say it aint so!

Makes you hate GW right guys?

The entries in the Forces of the Orks section of the codex pretty specifically limit the special rules applying to each unit to that specific type of Ork-for example,

Infiltrate: Kommandos are adept at sneaking through cover. They have the Infiltrate special rule.

It seems pretty obvious to me that, at least in this part of the codex, the Kommando Nob is considered a Kommando, and has the Infiltrate USR.

Likewise, I'm pretty sure that the Glory Hog rule is intended to apply to Tankbusta Nobs, despite the fact that the wording on the rule limits it to Tankbustas (I quoted Glory Hog on the last page).

So, Nobs that are bought as upgrades retain their "type" even after they're upgraded.

Grimgob wrote:So wait..... Painboys can't have Heavy armour??? Say it aint so!

Errm... They never have been able too, just like they have never been able to take Power Klaws.

Gwar! wrote:

Grimgob wrote:So wait..... Painboys can't have Heavy armour??? Say it aint so!

Errm... They never have been able too, just like they have never been able to take Power Klaws.

I'll note that the nob entry says 'one nob may be a painboy', and that it specifically says 'Painboy replaces slugga and choppa with docs tools and urty syringe' in the main nob wargear list. (wheras other units in the codex that are more obviously composed of two distinct units like gretchin/runherds or even burnas/meks have separate fully listed gear and occasionally SR sections). It seems like a whole lot to go through just to share that one easily reprintable line about bikers.
Consistency ftw.

I still don't think there's enough information to rule conclusively either way.

last time i read the tankbusta entry, IIRC it said "the nob may replace his rokkit launcha with..."

which makes me assume that you can upgrade up to 3 tankbustas- you can swap the rokkits on 2 of them for a tankhammer, and another one may be upgraded to a nob.

If a tankbusta nob can take a tankhammer, can a regular boyz mob nob swap his slugga for a big shoota before being upgraded to a nob? I'll leave this up to the rules lawyers...

Jihallah wrote:
If a tankbusta nob can take a tankhammer, can a regular boyz mob nob swap his slugga for a big shoota before being upgraded to a nob? I'll leave this up to the rules lawyers...

He can afterwards, so it doesn't matter.

By the logic that is being used by pro-Nob with Tankhammer crowd, I will be mounting Arjac Rockfist on a Thunderwolf. I can buy the wolf before I upgrade the model, and he gets to keep it on being upgraded; as the entry does not specifically say he loses any previous equipment.

The way the codex is written, there seems to be a natural flow chartedness to it. If you upgrade a model with a Tankhammer, then that model is done. If you have a model that bypassed the Tankhammer upgrade, then you can upgrade a single non-upgraded model to a Nob with further upgrade potential.

While the language used is not so clear and concise as one might wish, I think reading it by the light of the codexes that followed gives some insight into what GW is thinking. Or, at least, that's how I would play it. Unless you care to see a Canis and Arjac mounted charge, that is.

Q: What kind of weapons is a Nob allowed, anyway?

A: Any weapon he wants!

Get it? Ha ha ha

Seriously, tho, if I give a Tankbusta a hammer, then upgrade him to a Nob, I don't see why the Nob wouldn't be able to keep the weapon. Fluffwise, this is awesome. Ruleswise there's no reason to suspect you can't do it. Unless you're just going by the models.

If there's a rule that says you can't, I could see it. But the rules say 2 Tankbustas can have hammers - as long as I don't go over 2, seems OK to me. Otherwise, the rules would say "any 2 tankbustas but not the Nob"

That's my take. It is more ludicrous to me to imagine that a Nob couldn't ever have a tankhammer. What's so great about some slob Ork Boy that gets him the awesome S10 while the Nob is denied?

Permissive rules system Solorg. You need to show the rule that says you can put it on the nob. Also the rule that says upgrades follow this sort of flow chart of being able to put an item on something then upgrade it.

Since this is posted in YMDC, I'd have to say that I would allow this if I saw it slapped on a table across from me, either in casual play or on a tourney table. Bonus points if they did a good job making it look orky.

Drudge Dreadnought wrote:Permissive rules system Solorg. You need to show the rule that says you can put it on the nob. Also the rule that says upgrades follow this sort of flow chart of being able to put an item on something then upgrade it.

Looking at the FAQ this sort of 'flow chart' thinking (referring to the Shootaboy Nob taking a Power Klaw) is far more on the side of a Tankbusta nob being given the Tank'ammer than not.

Based on the FAQ answer I would side with the Nob being able to take the Tankhamma.
As an aside, is it actually a viable choice or is this just being picky about rules?

Thorgut wrote:As an aside, is it actually a viable choice or is this just being picky about rules?

It's the same argument as painboys having heavy armour, which i myself see taken often enough without raising objection. This isn't all just hypothetical banter, people really play like this.

I'm with Sarlog. Let the Nobs have Tankhammers, if they wanted them they would have them. The wickedly logical summary by insaniak makes it clear. There are at least four interpretions that could be reached by reasonable people, three of which allow Nobs the Tankhammer.