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Gwar! wrote: As long as one model has Stealth, the "units cover saves are improved by +1".

Yakface wrote:
...special rules says it applies to 'his unit', so this has always raised the question of whether this is specific enough to apply to joined ICs as well. We had a long debate when making this ruling and ultimately decided that ICs already get plenty of bonuses in the game and it was probably safer to stick with the stricter interpretation of the rule and say that special rules are not conferred onto joined ICs unless the rule actually says that it applies to ICs.

oh noes.

Gwar! wrote:It does. As long as one model has Stealth, the "units cover saves are improved by +1".

That RAW interpretation seams to run counter to GW current Necron FAQ:

"Q: How does a Tomb Spider with Scarab Swarms work with the...stealh special rules?"

"A:all wounds are allocated to specific models, only wounds allocated to the scarabs are doubled for vulnerablity to blasts and gain the +1 cover save for stealth."

This concludes that the Tombspider does not benefit from Stealth even though it is technically a member of the unit.

Not to mention that nearly all special abilities use the language "applies to unit"; so if your RAW interpretation was correct, it would be pretty pointless of GW to bother stating that a unit's special abilities only transfer to IC if the rule specifically says so. Of course, I expect that you will bring up somthing about evil dolphins and GW propensity to intentionally confuse us.

Since when have GW ever given two gaks about giving correct FAQ answers? 90% of their FAQs are just plain incorrect and the other 10% is supposed to be Errata.

What if the FAQ is correct and Rulebook is wrong and... dear heavens what the hell do you feed that thing!

wyomingfox wrote:What if the FAQ is correct and Rulebook is wrong and... dear heavens what the hell do you feed that thing!

It cannot be, because GW state themselves the FAQs are not rules, and that they are nothing but house rules.

And I feed it Coffee mixed with Red Bull mixed with Doom Rider Blend™ White Gold

Bahh...that only proves that GW has identity issues that it needs to address...preferably with a Glock

Necrons, bless them, are the worst hashed up codex. They have there own versions of many of the rules. Rather then leave them with their own rules GW in its infinite wisdom has give them all the USR ... And this is where the problems start.

When Scarabs had their own small target rule it says that only the swarm gets +1 to its cover save. There for tomb spiders don't and should get +1 to their cover saves.

Now with Swarm USR they gain the stealth USR. Stealth is not as specific, If any one has stealth the unit gets +1 to is cover save.

So where did ...
"Q: How does a Tomb Spider with Scarab Swarms work with the...stealh special rules?"

"A:all wounds are allocated to specific models, only wounds allocated to the scarabs are doubled for vulnerablity to blasts and gain the +1 cover save for stealth."
...come from? Easy its a left over from before the Scarab Swarms were give all USRs .... Its just no ones though on rewriting it.

Actually, I recall the 4rth edition FAQ reading differently. The FAQ also references the 5th Edition BRB page for complex units.

wyomingfox wrote:Actually, I recall the 4rth edition FAQ reading differently. The FAQ also references the 5th Edition BRB page for complex units.

... points is simple. When ever they decided that they should run on USR, rather then their own, the wording was changed. I've no idea how far back that happened I can remember it did... If it was a change from 3rd to 4th Edition forgive me that was a while ago.

edit just checked the ISBN number 2002-01-01 ¬_¬ and i that is why we've got problems....

We got problems because GW is a cluster . Like GW proclaiming that thier FAQs are house rules. No, house rules are made by people OUTSIDE the company you donkey caves.

Seriously if each Dakka member contributed $10/month, we could hire a Editor/FAQ writer for GW, then those cheapscates wouldn't have any excuses...well except for Jervis . He is like the gift that keeps on giving.

Just to add to the fire, Tau stealth field generator gives stealth to the drones from the model that has the SFG. I.e. some say broken stealth marker drones. Ork painboy gives FNP to IC that join the squad. If you put Ork IC with Mega nob squad with Thraka, they all become fearless. There are many other instances of Said units is in the unit, whole unit gets XYZ ability. I doesn't make sense for thraka to be able to sneak behind enemy lines with snikrot, but rules wise its not cheating. Just one of those TFG scenarios.

Although, seems like the more I play, I find that everyone trys to find the TFG rules in some way or level. Trying to get the most out of there rules as possible. Most bang for your buck.

Gold tooth Jerry wrote:Just to add to the fire, Tau stealth field generator gives stealth to the drones from the model that has the SFG. I.e. some say broken stealth marker drones.

Units wholly equipped with stealth field generators, and any drones, benefit from the SFG in that spot checks have to be made in order to see them. None of them gain 'stealth' which is a USR.

Gold tooth Jerry wrote:It doesn't make sense for thraka to be able to sneak behind enemy lines with snikrot, but rules wise its not cheating. Just one of those TFG scenarios.

Although, seems like the more I play, I find that everyone trys to find the TFG rules in some way or level. Trying to get the most out of there rules as possible.

How does playing perfectly working rules as they're written in the rulebook make someone a powergaming TFG?

Gorkamorka wrote:

Gold tooth Jerry wrote:It doesn't make sense for thraka to be able to sneak behind enemy lines with snikrot, but rules wise its not cheating. Just one of those TFG scenarios.

Although, seems like the more I play, I find that everyone trys to find the TFG rules in some way or level. Trying to get the most out of there rules as possible.

How does playing perfectly working rules as they're written in the rulebook make someone a powergaming TFG?

It doesn't. It is the people who accuse you of being a TFG who are TFG.

Ridcully wrote:

Gold tooth Jerry wrote:Just to add to the fire, Tau stealth field generator gives stealth to the drones from the model that has the SFG. I.e. some say broken stealth marker drones.

Units wholly equipped with stealth field generators, and any drones, benefit from the SFG in that spot checks have to be made in order to see them. None of them gain 'stealth' which is a USR.

I know it doesn't confer the stealth special ability...... I meant to type it, but for some reason didnt type out stealth field generator, you can even see a double space there, where it was supposed to go.

hope my understanding of the rules is ok...if not..please help !

lets see:
ork codex - Kommandos - pag 44 : states that they have the infiltrate special rule.

Rulebook 5th ed - IC - pag. 48: special rules - When a IC joins a unit, it might have different special rules from those of the unit... In some cases though, the IC or the unit may lose their special rules as a result of the character joining the unit. as a exemple the IC without infiltrate joins a unit with infiltrate the unit cannot infiltrate.


So...you can only OUTFLANK, a maneuver granted by the RESERVES + INFILTRATE if you have the infiltrate ability. Since the IC without the ability joins the unit as stated above, you have lost the infiltrate ability.

This was what i have undestood by now. Im still reading the rulebook, so if someone can help with add-ons to my explanation, i´ll be glad.

thanks all.

rvianarpg wrote:hope my understanding of the rules is ok...if not..please help !

lets see:
ork codex - Kommandos - pag 44 : states that they have the infiltrate special rule.

Rulebook 5th ed - IC - pag. 48: special rules - When a IC joins a unit, it might have different special rules from those of the unit... In some cases though, the IC or the unit may lose their special rules as a result of the character joining the unit. as a exemple the IC without infiltrate joins a unit with infiltrate the unit cannot infiltrate.


So...you can only OUTFLANK, a maneuver granted by the RESERVES + INFILTRATE if you have the infiltrate ability. Since the IC without the ability joins the unit as stated above, you have lost the infiltrate ability.

This was what i have undestood by now. Im still reading the rulebook, so if someone can help with add-ons to my explanation, i´ll be glad.

thanks all.

Snitgrot has his own special rule that allows the unit to come in on any table side. it does not require the unit to outflank,infiltrate or have scout.

mrdabba wrote:

rvianarpg wrote:hope my understanding of the rules is ok...if not..please help !

lets see:
ork codex - Kommandos - pag 44 : states that they have the infiltrate special rule.

Rulebook 5th ed - IC - pag. 48: special rules - When a IC joins a unit, it might have different special rules from those of the unit... In some cases though, the IC or the unit may lose their special rules as a result of the character joining the unit. as a exemple the IC without infiltrate joins a unit with infiltrate the unit cannot infiltrate.


So...you can only OUTFLANK, a maneuver granted by the RESERVES + INFILTRATE if you have the infiltrate ability. Since the IC without the ability joins the unit as stated above, you have lost the infiltrate ability.

This was what i have undestood by now. Im still reading the rulebook, so if someone can help with add-ons to my explanation, i´ll be glad.

thanks all.

Snitgrot has his own special rule that allows the unit to come in on any table side. it does not require the unit to outflank,infiltrate or have scout.

I reread the rules for IC last night and Its so unclear. Like the emergancy disembarking thing. The ruels for IC are contrary. On one had it says certain rules that apply to the unit are confered to the IC. While 1 sentence later stats taht IC dont recieve special rules. Arggg.

Heres another one i saw a few nights ago. Does Waagh banner confer a +1 ws to a IC. Just about everyone said yes it does, but then I pointed out if thats ok then Thraka should be able to run. Snikrot and company as they normally do, becuase the Waagh banner gives you a buff that is given to the whole unit, and Snikrot's ambush ability gives ambush too the entire unit. When you attach a IC they make 1 unit.

I know I keep talking about this and some of you are like w/e, but the funny thing is I have never used it in a game.

mrdabba wrote:

rvianarpg wrote:hope my understanding of the rules is ok...if not..please help !

lets see:
ork codex - Kommandos - pag 44 : states that they have the infiltrate special rule.

Rulebook 5th ed - IC - pag. 48: special rules - When a IC joins a unit, it might have different special rules from those of the unit... In some cases though, the IC or the unit may lose their special rules as a result of the character joining the unit. as a exemple the IC without infiltrate joins a unit with infiltrate the unit cannot infiltrate.


So...you can only OUTFLANK, a maneuver granted by the RESERVES + INFILTRATE if you have the infiltrate ability. Since the IC without the ability joins the unit as stated above, you have lost the infiltrate ability.

This was what i have undestood by now. Im still reading the rulebook, so if someone can help with add-ons to my explanation, i´ll be glad.

thanks all.

Snitgrot has his own special rule that allows the unit to come in on any table side. it does not require the unit to outflank,infiltrate or have scout.

I understand that Snikrot has a special rule...but let´s see:
- he can only begin the game in the kommandos unit. So his ability is a complement to the infiltration rule, after all he has the infiltrate rule as you can see under his special abilities - you can see it even by his fluff.

the description of the skill shoul be something like - ambush - prerequisites : infiltrate and be in reserves.

but i should agree, the book and the rules are crap.

we should do a petition for a real faq, a real rulebook.

bye.

Yea, the inat faq is pretty much crap, they just make rule changing decisio ns and label them as "clarifications" when they're blatant rule changes.

ghaz+snik is 100% raw legal, and anyone who calls you tfg is as someone else said the real tfg.

I find it interesting when people don't like a rule, they'll do anything they can to make inferences, parallels, interpret the rules as they see fit so that the rule isn't legal.

Nothing irks me more than someone (or a house) taking a rule and breaking it or ruling against it because they think its too powerful. No ICs with Snikrot....Deffrollas don't work against vehicles....the list goes on. ><

kill dem stunties wrote:Yea, the inat faq is pretty much crap, they just make rule changing decisio ns and label them as "clarifications" when they're blatant rule changes.

ghaz+snik is 100% raw legal, and anyone who calls you tfg is as someone else said the real tfg.

100% by RAW Snicks rule does not specifically say it applies to IC's, as the rules for IC's say it must.

So like Yak said, that is where the argument is it. The only example given is again Stubborn, which specifically says it applies to IC's. So by GW's own given example, wording must be there to say said Special Rule applies to IC's. That is the strictest RAW interpretation. Hence the [clarification] tag.

Also someone mentioned a Painboy giving FnP to the unit. This was ruled that way because rather then being listed as a models "Special Rules" which have to specifically say they apply to IC's per RAW, it is an effect granted to the unit via Wargear and not listed under or as a models "Special Rules". The same goes for a Space Marine Command Squad and Apothecaries. Again here the Narthecium is listed as Wargear and not as a Special Rule.

I find it interesting when people like what they thought of a rule, they'll do anything they can to make inferences, parallels, and interpret the rules as they see fit so that their reading of a rule is legal.

Nothing irks me more than someone (or a house) taking a rule and breaking it or ruling against the text because they think it's not powerful enough. ICs with Snikrot....Deffrollas work against vehicles....the list goes on.

Kirsanth for the win

Marius Xerxes wrote:

kill dem stunties wrote:Yea, the inat faq is pretty much crap, they just make rule changing decisio ns and label them as "clarifications" when they're blatant rule changes.

ghaz+snik is 100% raw legal, and anyone who calls you tfg is as someone else said the real tfg.

100% by RAW Snicks rule does not specifically say it applies to IC's, as the rules for IC's say it must.

So like Yak said, that is where the argument is it. The only example given is again Stubborn, which specifically says it applies to IC's. So by GW's own given example, wording must be there to say said Special Rule applies to IC's. That is the strictest RAW interpretation. Hence the [clarification] tag.

Also someone mentioned a Painboy giving FnP to the unit. This was ruled that way because rather then being listed as a models "Special Rules" which have to specifically say they apply to IC's per RAW, it is an effect granted to the unit via Wargear and not listed under or as a models "Special Rules". The same goes for a Space Marine Command Squad and Apothecaries. Again here the Narthecium is listed as Wargear and not as a Special Rule.

How can you say a unit wide buff for wargear is different that a unit wide buff for special rules or abilities? Thats like saying its not ok to drink water, but ok to drink H20. I really dont think that should be the basis for which we divide this. Its simply not a valid point.

Yeah, kirsanth I see that all the time. Its like we dont like that rule so you cant do it.

I think things need to be a little broken, because thats what makes it fun. Sure it can get agrivating when your on the recieving end, but every army has that omg rule. Maybe GW put those in there to make it a little broken. I mean if DE was the same str as Marine in every way, but different fluff and models. Nobody would play this game. There need to be big weaknesses and big strs. Making a player learn skills to maximise strs and minimise weaknesses is what makes this game great.

Is the snikrot thing powerful sure, are there equally powerful and uncontested rules? Plenty

Gold tooth Jerry wrote:How can you say a unit wide buff for wargear is different that a unit wide buff for special rules or abilities? Thats like saying its not ok to drink water, but ok to drink H20. I really dont think that should be the basis for which we divide this. Its simply not a valid point.

Well its simple, to me. In the rules for the model, are said things listed under "Special Rules" or "Wargear"? Again, strictest RAW says IC's dont get "Special Rules" unless specified otherwsie but it says nothing about "Wargear" granting benifits. Is it open to interpretation? Sure. But thats my opinion on the issue. Its as valid as the next guys.

Gold tooth Jerry wrote:
I think things need to be a little broken, because thats what makes it fun. Sure it can get agrivating when your on the recieving end, but every army has that omg rule. Maybe GW put those in there to make it a little broken. I mean if DE was the same str as Marine in every way, but different fluff and models. Nobody would play this game. There need to be big weaknesses and big strs. Making a player learn skills to maximise strs and minimise weaknesses is what makes this game great.

See thats where there is a misconception to me. Things dont need to be broken at all to have a competitive level of balance to armies, while maintaining individual army identity and rules. No army needs to have that OMG rule, as you put it, to make it fun to play. Each army simply has to be designed in a way that its flavor and playstyle match what the customer feels they would most enjoy.

Broken items are what make games unfun for most people. Sure, "Easter Egg" hunters like finding those things they can spring on their opponent and totally own them with. I however prefer a game with someone who has as solid a grasp on the rules, and their army, as I do of mine. So I guess its a difference of playstle. I dont look for the broken combinations just to spring some OMG rule on my opponent. I actually go through the books and rules and as I come up with ideas I share discuss them with my friends and the individuals at my LGS. Like I said, I like an informed and competent opponent.

Keep looking for way to make your game ez-mode, if thats what you prefer. Ill keep looking for the players who bump up my skill as a player without needing OMG rules.

Marius Xerxes wrote:

Gold tooth Jerry wrote:How can you say a unit wide buff for wargear is different that a unit wide buff for special rules or abilities? Thats like saying its not ok to drink water, but ok to drink H20. I really dont think that should be the basis for which we divide this. Its simply not a valid point.

Well its simple, to me. In the rules for the model, are said things listed under "Special Rules" or "Wargear"? Again, strictest RAW says IC's dont get "Special Rules" unless specified otherwsie but it says nothing about "Wargear" granting benifits. Is it open to interpretation? Sure. But thats my opinion on the issue. Its as valid as the next guys.

Gold tooth Jerry wrote:
I think things need to be a little broken, because thats what makes it fun. Sure it can get agrivating when your on the recieving end, but every army has that omg rule. Maybe GW put those in there to make it a little broken. I mean if DE was the same str as Marine in every way, but different fluff and models. Nobody would play this game. There need to be big weaknesses and big strs. Making a player learn skills to maximise strs and minimise weaknesses is what makes this game great.

See thats where there is a misconception to me. Things dont need to be broken at all to have a competitive level of balance to armies, while maintaining individual army identity and rules. No army needs to have that OMG rule, as you put it, to make it fun to play. Each army simply has to be designed in a way that its flavor and playstyle match what the customer feels they would most enjoy.

Broken items are what make games unfun for most people. Sure, "Easter Egg" hunters like finding those things they can spring on their opponent and totally own them with. I however prefer a game with someone who has as solid a grasp on the rules, and their army, as I do of mine. So I guess its a difference of playstle. I dont look for the broken combinations just to spring some OMG rule on my opponent. I actually go through the books and rules and as I come up with ideas I share discuss them with my friends and the individuals at my LGS. Like I said, I like an informed and competent opponent.

Keep looking for way to make your game ez-mode, if thats what you prefer. Ill keep looking for the players who bump up my skill as a player without needing OMG rules.

Once again, I have never used this. I dont even own a snikrott or enough kommandos. You are wrong though. Our lives are full of ways we try to push forward to gain a footing ahead of those we compete with. By your own admition you use this. You build your skill up so that yours is superior to that of your opponents in order to win. Part of doing that is using the rules to get the most bang for you buck. Its not EZmode or newbish or w/e you are thinking. It is playing the game in a competitive way. To capitalize on those abilities the rules provide and use them to your best advantage. How is that ez mode? If anything thats very hard. Hell, a lot of players end up taking the ideas of other on this website to get all there tactics and strategies. That is ez mode.

Furthermore, The reason why i made this post was for people to discuss this not act condescending to each other.

As to your argument, the special ability says that snikrots units all are granted the ambush ability. When a Ic joins a squad they become one unit for all purposes. Sure you can detach the IC later but if they take casualties the IC would have to roll for moral just like all the other units in the squad. If anything happened to the squad it would happen to the IC just as it happens to the kommandos. If they are all in the same squad and start in reserve then they can come in on any table edge.

Doesn't this play off the same thing as Shrike's infilitrate?

No, it doesn't - Shrikes Infiltrate doesnt work for entirely different reasons as to why Snikrots rule, using RAW, DOES work.

What it boils down to is the rule(s) are not 100% clear in this particular situation. The real question becomes:

a. do you rule in favor of the less restrictive interpretation

b. do you rule in favor of the more restrictive interpretation