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H.B.M.C. wrote:People dislike them because they are popular and highly visable. It's 40K's Tall, Grim & Dark Poppy Syndrome at work.

I can abso-fething-lutely guarantee you that if the Blood Angels had been on the front of every box and book for the past 15 years, we'd be having the exact same conversation about them.

No, it's because the Ultramarines eclipse EVERY OTHER SPACE MARINE CHAPTER. Why is there no variety here? It's not necessarily because they are popular and visable, it's because nobody else gets a chance to shine. Nope. It's the Ultramarines, again.

Vladsimpaler wrote:And the whole Marysue Calgar doesn't help.

You watch your tongue boy. I'll have none speak ill of my Half Brother.

I'm sorry, but if you don't even find the ridiculous background surrounding him in the new codex to be even slightly contrived and stupid, then I'm afraid that you and I are no longer on speaking terms because him versus the Avatar was the most fething idiotic thing that I have ever read.

Why I hate Ultramarines... Well blue and white are the school colors of Brigham Young University. Looking at an Ultramarine army doesn't make me think of smurfs, it makes me think "BYU Space Marines!"... I'm not a BYU fan. Plus, blue and white are just such boring colors. They are the colors of "let's emphasize gentleness and kind words..." I guess some people like that sort of army though.

Vladsimpaler wrote:No, it's because the Ultramarines eclipse EVERY OTHER SPACE MARINE CHAPTER. Why is there no variety here? It's not necessarily because they are popular and visable, it's because nobody else gets a chance to shine. Nope. It's the Ultramarines, again.

Don't be daft.

This is a business thing.

To have a strong product you have to present a strong and consistent brand image. Using Ultramarines on the greater majority of Marine products unifies the product line, in turn showing strength of the brand. There is absolutely no reason why this couldn't've been done 20 years ago with Blood Angels, Salamanders, Imp Fists, or whoever. They chose Ultramarines, and they stuck to it.

None of this "time to shine" bull-gak.


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Vladsimpaler wrote:I'm sorry, but if you don't even find the ridiculous background surrounding him in the new codex to be even slightly contrived and stupid, then I'm afraid that you and I are no longer on speaking terms because him versus the Avatar was the most fething idiotic thing that I have ever read.

Also nonsense.

A friend of mine found the idea of a Chapter Master defeating the Avatar to be utterly insane - the very thought of it insulted his senses. Then he read the entry in which Calgar defeats the Avatar and saw that Calgar only did so by being extremely lucky, and would be dead if not for the Gauntlets. It was not Calgar that defeated the Avatar, it was ancient technology of a bygone era that gave him the moment he needed to strike back.

A little reading comprehension goes a long way...

H.B.M.C. wrote:

Vladsimpaler wrote:No, it's because the Ultramarines eclipse EVERY OTHER SPACE MARINE CHAPTER. Why is there no variety here? It's not necessarily because they are popular and visable, it's because nobody else gets a chance to shine. Nope. It's the Ultramarines, again.

Don't be daft.

This is a business thing.

To have a strong product you have to present a strong and consistent brand image. Using Ultramarines on the greater majority of Marine products unifies the product line, in turn showing strength of the brand. There is absolutely no reason why this couldn't've been done 20 years ago with Blood Angels, Salamanders, Imp Fists, or whoever. They chose Ultramarines, and they stuck to it.

None of this "time to shine" bull-gak.

I find it fascinating that on one hand you support GW's business practices but on the other hand you despise them utterly. However to avoid going off-topic, of course....

Why can't GW's consistency be their purported models? If the models are good enough, then there shouldn't be a need for one "unifying theme" as you put it. I fail to see how having the Sternguard be White Scars and Imperial Fists having the Dreadnought would hurt GW's image.

I of course have little business knowledge so perhaps this is wrong. I just think that versatility is another good thing to show, but that's just me.

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Vladsimpaler wrote:I'm sorry, but if you don't even find the ridiculous background surrounding him in the new codex to be even slightly contrived and stupid, then I'm afraid that you and I are no longer on speaking terms because him versus the Avatar was the most fething idiotic thing that I have ever read.

Also nonsense.

A friend of mine found the idea of a Chapter Master defeating the Avatar to be utterly insane - the very thought of it insulted his senses. Then he read the entry in which Calgar defeats the Avatar and saw that Calgar only did so by being extremely lucky, and would be dead if not for the Gauntlets. It was not Calgar that defeated the Avatar, it was ancient technology of a bygone era that gave him the moment he needed to strike back.

A little reading comprehension goes a long way...

That's good...luck and a pair of power gloves help defeat a huge lava daemon that is the fragment of a god of war.
The problem is, sheer luck is a terrible excuse. Anything can happen by being extremely lucky (or unlucky). For example, by sheer luck maybe GW will stop acting like morons. Maybe Mat Ward will stop having a hard-on for Calgar and his power fists. See what I did there?

I suppose it was also by sheer luck that the Eldar were tactical morons during the battle as well? I have read it too, by the way.

It's typical movie nonsense, really.
I'm just disappointed that the Avatar didn't start a monologue on how he was better than anyone else and then Calgar beat him while he was talking.

I suppose I will leave you with the phrase, "I'd Rather Be Lucky Than Good" because maybe that's the actual Ultramarine Battle Cry. Not "For the Emperor!" or any of that nonsense.

I love it, I love it, I love it.....DakkaDakka could seriously be the Lexicanum for all of GW fudge ups and mistakes.....and yet.....

And yet, this still seems to be the place to come to get your rocks off about GW product

Lets face it, little blue men in flared armour trousers are not the issue here, never have and never will be! The issue, as always, is GW! People may start to see a theme to my threads on the subject matter.

You know what I wish would happen? EVERYONE goes out and buys a Ultramarine army, nothing else, just Ultramarines.....can you imagine the next Gamesday, when everyone turns up to play, and its table after table of Ultramarines!

What would GW say or do? How could they complain? I mean, refering back to my earlier post, its the most supported army....like ever! So surely you'd be mad to invest in an army that is totally unsupported.....Dark Eldar anyone? dare I say Squats?

Why the hell should you spend money on something that the parent company doesn't even care about?

We should all learn to love Ultramarines at the expense of everything else in their "range" and I bet that does more damage to them than any boycott

Back on topic, stop hating the Monkey, and start hating the Organ Grinder!

No ultra thread is complete without this picture..

But I kinda like the Ultra marines .. Theyve grown on me somehow.. I prefer them to the blud ravenz!!! Who unlike the ultras force me to play them if I wanna play dow2 campaign and then the expansion.. blud pigeons again! FFS.

Delephont wrote:

Back on topic, stop hating the Monkey, and start hating the Organ Grinder!

I agree. When I first started 40k, even though I didn't really care for Imperial Space Marines, I always thought that the Ultra Marines were cool and had some cool backstory.

Calgar's overconfidence and overall cockiness was the reason that the Tyranids were able to hit Macragge so bad. And Macragge was devastated. It seems that the Ultra Marines seem to be able to beat the Tyranids worse every single time.

I like the Roman aesthetic about them as well.

However, the best part about Wh40k? The whole Calgar vs. Avatar story was most likely propaganda by the Imperial war machine.

I for one love the Ultras- The Greco-Roman theam is great, and given that other possible choices (space frat boys, space mechanics, or various shades of space emos) they are the obvious one, fluf wise to choose for me. The only 'official' chapter I like better is the Iron Snakes.

Its time people realized that the "grim dark 41st mellenium' is pretty much a construct of humanity, and that a new golden age lay with the example of the Ultras. Because I can guarantee you, following the Space Wolves, Black Templars or most of the other Space Marine legion mantras is gonna lead to a big chaos fist up your arse

Carlovonsexron wrote:I for one love the Ultras- The Greco-Roman theam is great, and given that other possible choices (space frat boys, space mechanics, or various shades of space emos) they are the obvious one, fluf wise to choose for me. The only 'official' chapter I like better is the Iron Snakes.

Its time people realized that the "grim dark 41st mellenium' is pretty much a construct of humanity, and that a new golden age lay with the example of the Ultras. Because I can guarantee you, following the Space Wolves, Black Templars or most of the other Space Marine legion mantras is gonna lead to a big chaos fist up your arse

Yeah, a new golden age lay ahead with the Sensei, and look at what happened to them...

H.B.M.C. wrote:People dislike them because they are popular and highly visable. It's 40K's Tall, Grim & Dark Poppy Syndrome at work.

I can abso-fething-lutely guarantee you that if the Blood Angels had been on the front of every box and book for the past 15 years, we'd be having the exact same conversation about them.

I'd argue that Blood Angels actually came very close to this position during 2nd edition (which of course overlapped with GW's "Red Phase"). To me, it felt like most of the artwork and battle dioramas were of Blood Angels and I was sick of seeing them. My 1st 40k army was a BA one, because they were so heavily represented in the 2nd edition box.

I like the Ultras though for the following reasons:

1. I like the color blue.
2. Blue minis are easy to paint. I've been using the same bottle of Citadel (probably made by Coat d'Arms and rebranded) Ultramarines Blue for 15 years (almost empty finally) as my basecoat. Plenty of pigment and goes on beautifully with a single coat.
3. I like the overall administrative competence of the Ultramarines and their Primarch. In a galaxy full of reactionary and technophobic idiots, waste (how many guardsmen died in that frontal assault?), and corruption, at least a few planets have managed to institutionalize things like efficient management of economic resources, a stable development plan, and a decent quality of living. A strong economy is the foundation of a strong military, so it's not surprising that Ultramar supports one of the most well-organized PDFs and the single most successful and numerous Marine Legion. Whereas most other Primarchs are more like Alexander the Great, being hard-charging bloodthirsty fighters or brawlers, Roboute Guilliman is more like George C. Marshall or Gaius Marius: a consummate military professional with a brain that works. Of course, I majored in Economics and see myself attending Naval Postgraduate School to get a PhD in Operations Research somewhere down the line, so it's no surprise that this sort of thing pushes my buttons.

Disclaimer: I've read almost no Ultramarine fluff since early 3rd edition, so all this new "EVERYONE wants to be like us!" wankery is largely unknown to me.

I like Smurfs. I recently started playing them. I think if an Ultramarine army is done right, it can be a thing of beauty.

Noble713 wrote:I'd argue that Blood Angels actually came very close to this position during 2nd edition (which of course overlapped with GW's "Red Phase").

I completely agree. And, if that had come to pass, we'd be having this very same conversation, except it'd be about Blood Angels rather than Ultramarines.

H.B.M.C. wrote:A friend of mine found the idea of a Chapter Master defeating the Avatar to be utterly insane - the very thought of it insulted his senses. Then he read the entry in which Calgar defeats the Avatar and saw that Calgar only did so by being extremely lucky...

What worries me is that Gabriel Angelos also defeated an Avatar in Goto's first Dawn of War book. SMs killing Avatars in 1-on-1 combat just makes for atrociously vapid writing.

And people complain about a Firewarrior killing a SM in that one Tau book...

I don't hate them or like them but they have cheesy name,too much GW focus and no one plays necrons.

IvanTih wrote:I don't hate them or like them but they have cheesy name,too much GW focus and no one plays necrons.

"Ultramarine" as a shade of blue was around long before 40K's poster boys. It just so happens that Ultramarines are painted in... You guessed it... Ultramarine

My guess is GW just thought Space Marines painted in Ultramarine was a funny pun and stuck them with said name.

And GW focuses on them no more than they did the Crimson Fists back when they were the favorites. Every decade or so, GW just chooses another poster army to toss on all their boxes. Give it time.

As for no one playing Necrons, it could be because Necrons are terribad now, and tend to get steamrolled in tournament play. They're rumoured to be getting a slew of new units and a big reimagining when their new Dex' rolls of the line (right after the DE codex of course ).

metallifan wrote:

IvanTih wrote:I don't hate them or like them but they have cheesy name,too much GW focus and no one plays necrons.

"Ultramarine" as a shade of blue was around long before 40K's poster boys. It just so happens that Ultramarines are painted in... You guessed it... Ultramarine

My guess is GW just thought Space Marines painted in Ultramarine was a funny pun and stuck them with said name.

And GW focuses on them no more than they did the Crimson Fists back when they were the favorites. Every decade or so, GW just chooses another poster army to toss on all their boxes. Give it time.

As for no one playing Necrons, it could be because Necrons are terribad now, and tend to get steamrolled in tournament play. They're rumoured to be getting a slew of new units and a big reimagining when their new Dex' rolls of the line (right after the DE codex of course ).

The last one was meant to be a joke.

They're homo.

Its always "You do this this way or I exile you and poop on your papa"

They have no variety, they are the generalized chapter, like Humans in blood-bowl (anyone else thinking of getting it on the 26th? I know I am)

Meh, Smurfs are for 12 year olds.

I like the Ultarmarines Fluff-wise, but I would rather have my own chapter.

Archonate wrote:What worries me is that Gabriel Angelos also defeated an Avatar in Goto's first Dawn of War book.

You're missing the key part of that sentence - it's a Goto book. The same book where everyone rides in transports by standing on top of them - even Farseers on Falcons. I'm convinced that Goto came to a GW store once, saw some people using transports and saw a lot of models standing on transports. For us it's to tell us what unit is in what transport. For him it must've been a Road to Damascus-style moment, where he realised that important commanders road ON TOP of their transports. With this revelation (and several Multi-Lazors!) in hand, he returned to his home to write the sections of the book where a Terminator and a Kasrkin become BFF's and ride on top of a Razorback together.

God I wish I was making that up...

Archonate wrote:And people complain about a Firewarrior killing a SM in that one Tau book...

Firewarrior was far worse. It involved a Fire Warrior wiping out entire squads of Marines. At one point he even runs under the legs of a Marine causing one of the other Marines to kill his Battlebrother. It's absurd.

It seems that in 40k fluff, any main character can channel the power of the Emperor himself.



And on an unrelated note I present the Over-Marine!!

daedalusaf wrote:I hate them because they have their own movie coming out.

There. I said it.

Oh come ON! The movie is going to be kick ass, then all you guys can take you feet out of your mouths. Hell Ill help ya.


Personally, I dont like the smurfs, because yes they ARE pushed WAY more then anything else (one of the CEOs made them or something) And I think fluff wise, they are glory hogs.

H.B.M.C. wrote:

Archonate wrote:What worries me is that Gabriel Angelos also defeated an Avatar in Goto's first Dawn of War book.

You're missing the key part of that sentence - it's a Goto book.

But that's what I'm saying. Doesn't it bother you that the writers pulled a Goto on Marnie C.? SM killing an Avatar = Goto quality fluff?
Don't get me started on the Goto... I never made it through the first DoW book. The story begins with Eldar aspect warriors that retired to become Guardians. Then it was all downhill from there...

Ultra marines lack any sort of character, they have like no special units or play style, also everyone plays them, so everyone else hates them beacuse of the majority issiue. Just look at them, they do not ooze character like most other armies do.

I don't hate them in fact i'd love to start an army of them, the only thing that annoys me is the fact of them being all clean, no bad history, loyal...blah blah blah dirty loyalist scum!!!

They do however look great dead, on ork bases.

A good flocking of ultra corpses is what all warbosses strive for.

Because everyone plays ultramarines and they are on almost every single 40k picture and in all of the books, games, and movies. That and their color scheme looks bad. People like their history but they don't like the ultramarines themselves they are too proud they are too perfect. People want more story, people want differences and exceptions. People want a dark side to chapters. Like the Raven Guard, Crismon fists


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Because everyone plays ultramarines and they are on almost every single 40k picture and in all of the books, games, and movies. That and their color scheme looks bad. People like their history but they don't like the ultramarines themselves they are too proud they are too perfect. People want more story, people want differences and exceptions. People want a dark side to chapters. Like the Raven Guard, blood angels, dark angels, imperial fists and the Crismon fists. People like darker or brighter color schemes. Not BLUE!

Archonate wrote:But that's what I'm saying. Doesn't it bother you that the writers pulled a Goto on Marnie C.? SM killing an Avatar = Goto quality fluff?

No, because the circumstances and the method used were completely different. Calgar was very nearly killed the Avatar, and got lucky. Angelos simply climbed onto the Avatar and beat it to death with his power fist.

Asherian Command wrote:
Because everyone plays ultramarines and they are on almost every single 40k picture and in all of the books, games, and movies. That and their color scheme looks bad. People like their history but they don't like the ultramarines themselves they are too proud they are too perfect. People want more story, people want differences and exceptions. People want a dark side to chapters. Like the Raven Guard, blood angels, dark angels, imperial fists and the Crismon fists. People like darker or brighter color schemes. Not BLUE!

Crimson Fists are blue too, you know.

I like Ultras just fine. HBMC beat me to it earlier in saying how they're a brand image. A consistent image over the entire range so people aren't confused. For all those complaining, there's usually other schemes on the back of the box.

In all my time playing, I've only ever seen two Ultramarine armies. I've seen more Blood Angels armies than Ultramarines armies. I see plenty of Marines, but almost none of the Ultra variety.

They're alright, but Dark Angels, Black Templars, fething Space Wolves, and all CSM are better. I like Marneus Calgar cause he looks cool though.

Well, as most people have said the main reason I dislike them is they're everywhere. As a space marine player is there is ever an example of the product, Ultramarines! Front of the codex, Ultramarines! They're also one of the reasons I chose to play Dark Angels. I also find Ultramarines are too basic compared to some other chapters. Less fluff to work off for an interesting army.