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Ok, let me put this plainly, boneripper cannot be taken BY HIMSELF right? then he can't be your general. the fact that he is a companion monster to another character speaks for it self. if he has to follow another character into the battle, then he cannot be your general. to argue otherwise is just silly. i know RAW isn't on my side, but common sense MUST be used. No, you are not using common sense, you are trying to find a loophole to make your rats Ld 10. that is all you are doing.

I hope this is enough to show the common sense:

Bodyguard of Thanquol: Boneripper is a specially
modified Rat Ogre constructed to guard the Grey Seer.
Boneripper must be within 12" of Thanquol. If, at the
start of any friendly turn, Boneripper is not within 12"
of his master, then he is programmed to shut down.
While shut down, Boneripper cannot move and in
combat he will be hit automatically and will not strike
back. If the game ends while Boneripper is shut down,
he counts as a casualty. If Thanquol is slain or flees off
the table, Boneripper is removed as a casualty as well.

It really doesnt get any more obvious than this OP...
If this looks like a supposed General would be , by all means go for it.
Just dont be surprised if people point + laugh + refuse to play against you.

I know , LD 10 is nice right? But no.

LunaHound wrote:I hope this is enough to show the common sense:

Bodyguard of Thanquol: Boneripper is a specially
modified Rat Ogre constructed to guard the Grey Seer.
Boneripper must be within 12" of Thanquol. If, at the
start of any friendly turn, Boneripper is not within 12"
of his master, then he is programmed to shut down.
While shut down, Boneripper cannot move and in
combat he will be hit automatically and will not strike
back. If the game ends while Boneripper is shut down,
he counts as a casualty. If Thanquol is slain or flees off
the table, Boneripper is removed as a casualty as well.

It really doesnt get any more obvious than this OP...
If this looks like a supposed General would be , by all means go for it.
Just dont be surprised if people point + laugh + refuse to play against you.

I know , LD 10 is nice right? But no.

At this rate, I'm not sure this is enough...

Also, this falls down to are the rules restrictive or permissive.

"It doesn't say he cannot be my general" vs. "It does not say he can be my general".

Either way, whilst you seem to be right RAW, you cannot merely play from an RAW standpoint.

Regardless, it seems you cannot be moved from your position, and if you want him to honestly be your general, go for it.

LunaHound wrote:I hope this is enough to show the common sense:

Bodyguard of Thanquol: Boneripper is a specially
modified Rat Ogre constructed to guard the Grey Seer.
Boneripper must be within 12" of Thanquol. If, at the
start of any friendly turn, Boneripper is not within 12"
of his master, then he is programmed to shut down.
While shut down, Boneripper cannot move and in
combat he will be hit automatically and will not strike
back. If the game ends while Boneripper is shut down,
he counts as a casualty. If Thanquol is slain or flees off
the table, Boneripper is removed as a casualty as well.

It really doesnt get any more obvious than this OP...
If this looks like a supposed General would be , by all means go for it.
Just dont be surprised if people point + laugh + refuse to play against you.

I know , LD 10 is nice right? But no.

How is that enough? All that means is that if Boneripper is outside of the Thanquol bubble he doesn't work.
You haven't shown me any rule anywhere saying "Boneripper is a Monster" or "boneripper cannot be your general"
What you're doing here is inferring through a set of thematic concepts that Boneripper cannot possibly be your General.
However there's _nothing_ backing that up. Again, I agree with all of you that he shouldn't be, but you haven't proven to me
via the Rulebook or the Skaven army book that Boneripper cannot be my General.

Ok, let me put this plainly, boneripper cannot be taken BY HIMSELF right? then he can't be your general. the fact that he is a companion monster to another character speaks for it self. if he has to follow another character into the battle, then he cannot be your general. to argue otherwise is just silly. i know RAW isn't on my side, but common sense MUST be used. No, you are not using common sense, you are trying to find a loophole to make your rats Ld 10. that is all you are doing.

First off, your logic works just as well against Thanquol Watch:

Ok, let me put this plainly, Thanquol cannot be taken BY HIMSELF right? then he can't be your general. the fact that he is a companion wizard to another character speaks for it self.

I'm not even using a loophole here. I'm staring at the book. It has a Lord level entry that lists two models that are placed separately on the battlefield. They both operate independently and both are characters unless someone finds a Loophole to make Boneripper suddenly not a Character. He's got a name, stat-line, special rules just like any other character.
If looks like a duck, quacks like a duck, well then it must be a duck.

I appreciate the hate and all but I'm attacking this from a pure RAW angle and i'm interested if anyone has evidence to the contrary. I suppose they don't

strange_eric wrote:I appreciate the hate and all

Are you high?

Cryonicleech wrote:

LunaHound wrote:I hope this is enough to show the common sense:

Bodyguard of Thanquol: Boneripper is a specially
modified Rat Ogre constructed to guard the Grey Seer.
Boneripper must be within 12" of Thanquol. If, at the
start of any friendly turn, Boneripper is not within 12"
of his master, then he is programmed to shut down.
While shut down, Boneripper cannot move and in
combat he will be hit automatically and will not strike
back. If the game ends while Boneripper is shut down,
he counts as a casualty. If Thanquol is slain or flees off
the table, Boneripper is removed as a casualty as well.

It really doesnt get any more obvious than this OP...
If this looks like a supposed General would be , by all means go for it.
Just dont be surprised if people point + laugh + refuse to play against you.

I know , LD 10 is nice right? But no.

At this rate, I'm not sure this is enough...

Also, this falls down to are the rules restrictive or permissive.

"It doesn't say he cannot be my general" vs. "It does not say he can be my general".

Either way, whilst you seem to be right RAW, you cannot merely play from an RAW standpoint.

Regardless, it seems you cannot be moved from your position, and if you want him to honestly be your general, go for it.

Um im not the one that want it , im not strange_eric

So, you will play RAW at the expense of playing the game for any fun? got it. I hope you have fun trying to find anyone to play.

Point is you take Thanquol, not Boneripper. Boneripper is the guardian of Thanquol, not the other way around. Your Logic is flawed. How can a mindless robot be your general when he cannot even lead himself? How can he give his leadership to another unit when, if he is too far from his leader, he can't even operate? RAW is NOT common sense. You are abusing letter of the rule and dismissing the CLEAR INTENT. Let me guess, you are one of those that wouldn't let VC cast IoN into combat, even though it was STRONGLY suggested that they could by the text.

EDIT for spelling, I have Fat Fingers when I type

strange_eric wrote:They both operate independently

Sorry , i just have hard time not laughing at the irony of this sentence + bone ripper's rule.

strange_eric wrote:It has a Lord level entry that lists two models that are placed separately on the battlefield. They both operate independently and both are characters unless someone finds a Loophole to make Boneripper suddenly not a Character. He's got a name, stat-line, special rules just like any other character.
If looks like a duck, quacks like a duck, well then it must be a duck.

I appreciate the hate and all but I'm attacking this from a pure RAW angle and i'm interested if anyone has evidence to the contrary. I suppose they don't

Yes , you made it sound like those 2 chars are equal. In reality they are not.
Can Thanqol survive if Bone Ripper ( his companion body guard ) is destroyed? Yes he can
Can Bone Ripper exist if Thanquo is dead? Nope! not only that , if his dog leash doesnt go far enough , he shuts down.

Actually, thinking about this a little more, I MIGHT just let him be the general. That way I have more options to get the bonus victory points for killing the general. 1)kill bone ripper. 2) Kill Thanquol, 3) somehow get Thanquol and Boneripper away from each other so he shuts down. But, as for a more convincing argument, since you are arguing that they are both Characters and are both in a Lord spot, then you cannot bring Thanquol and Boneripper unless the game is at least 3,000 pts. Since you CANNOT bring one without the other, and you CANNOT bring more than one Lord until 3,000 points, and the are BOTH lord level characters, then you can't use them until you are playing a 3,000 point game.

strange_eric wrote:
I'm not even using a loophole here. I'm staring at the book. It has a Lord level entry that lists two models that are placed separately on the battlefield. They both operate independently and both are characters unless someone finds a Loophole to make Boneripper suddenly not a Character. He's got a name, stat-line, special rules just like any other character.
If looks like a duck, quacks like a duck, well then it must be a duck.

I appreciate the hate and all but I'm attacking this from a pure RAW angle and i'm interested if anyone has evidence to the contrary. I suppose they don't

True, but you're taking this from RAW too strictly.

Yes, you're right. There is nothing that disallows you.

What we are saying is, however, is that it would be incorrect to assume that because RAW states it is so, that it is a correct ruling. Rules are agreed upon by you and your opponent before the game, as although someone may share your view, there are still people who disagree, and rather than simply arguing about it for hours, we can just apply some common sense to the matter.

However, I have one question.

You said there is nothing that states Boneripper is not a character. However, I ask you where it states that he IS a character. He is taken as a Lords choice, but nowhere does it say that he is specifically a character, and follows their rules as such.

Arion wrote:Actually, thinking about this a little more, I MIGHT just let him be the general. That way I have more options to get the bonus victory points for killing the general. 1)kill bone ripper. 2) Kill Thanquol, 3) somehow get Thanquol and Boneripper away from each other so he shuts down. But, as for a more convincing argument, since you are arguing that they are both Characters and are both in a Lord spot, then you cannot bring Thanquol and Boneripper unless the game is at least 3,000 pts. Since you CANNOT bring one without the other, and you CANNOT bring more than one Lord until 3,000 points, and the are BOTH lord level characters, then you can't use them until you are playing a 3,000 point game.

Thats a great idea , that means i get to have 2 Lord Bubbles , one running forward while the shut off bone ripper can baby sit the
rest of the army.

You win! ( this is you --> )
How about these guys? for the same logic Eric , are the doggies and the casket = the General? Because they are Lord Choices and no where does it say they arnt .
And yes i went through the effort of confirming they arnt monstrous mounts , they arnt mount of any kind , and they have their own leader ship. They are the same , *companions to their Lord.

Sorry Eric , but we dont accept the logic of " it doesnt say i cant which mean i can! " as far as im concerned you have no case to be legally allowed to treat bone ripper as general.

Oh and Luna, the red quote of yours was referring to strange_Eric, not you.

Cryonicleech wrote:Oh and Luna, the red quote of yours was referring to strange_Eric, not you.

ah k i was confused about thta since i only see me in the quote ^^
What do you think about those 3 units i just listed though? they have the same over all rules as bone ripper,
they dont fall under mounts , or monstrous mounts , they have their own leader ship and own entry.

According to the logic used so far to whats "allowed" shall we agree the 3 are now also Lords?

I'm not too keen on the Casket, but Orion's Hounds and the Sabretusks do make fine examples.

The casket actually specifies that it is a rare choice. I don't know about the other two, but any Skaven player wishing to field Thanquol in the standard 2250 game will be disappointed.

strange_eric wrote:Your reasoning is only valid if indeed Boneripper was a Mount. Name me all the other Models that are bought alongside another model that operate independently and on their own?

At a guess: Felix and Kell. Though you might ignore Kell as he is 40K. Sure Felix joins with Gotrek but he is a seperate character not and add on, the two go together. Also I might be an edition behind anyway but...

In a very similar way Boneripper is not an add on to Thanquol, they are a partnership just like Felix and Gotrek. Bonerippers status is IMHO an oversight by GW and the characrter is supposed to be Thanquols loyal slave, but that is not the RAW. If you want go make Boneripper general go ahead, grey seers are powers behind thrones anyway, so its not as stupid for Boneripper to be titular army head as it at first looks.

Boneripper is a puppet, but he is big and impressive. If Thanquol says 'follow Boneripper' and Boneripper rears up roars and makes beckonging arm movements before lumbering forward I can see the Skaven army following him with Thanquol tagging along safely at the back. The more I look at it this is a very valid way for Thanquol to operate and Skaven are nothing if not easily led.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

LunaHound wrote:
How about these guys? for the same logic Eric , are the doggies and the casket = the General? Because they are Lord Choices and no where does it say they arnt .
And yes i went through the effort of confirming they arnt monstrous mounts , they arnt mount of any kind , and they have their own leader ship. They are the same , *companions to their Lord.

Sorry Eric , but we dont accept the logic of " it doesnt say i cant which mean i can! " as far as im concerned you have no case to be legally allowed to treat bone ripper as general.

We can eliminate Orion's dogs because Orion MUST be army general.

What about Skarsnik and Gobbla! I want an big mean squig to be my General!

Skarsnik and Gobbla occupy a single base, so no.

Cryonicleech wrote:Skarsnik and Gobbla occupy a single base, so no.

Show me in the rules where it says I can't just pry Skarsnick off the base!
/sarcasm

Ahh, that's right.

Arion wrote:So, you will play RAW at the expense of playing the game for any fun? got it. I hope you have fun trying to find anyone to play.

Point is you take Thanquol, not Boneripper. Boneripper is the guardian of Thanquol, not the other way around. Your Logic is flawed. How can a mindless robot be your general when he cannot even lead himself? How can he give his leadership to another unit when, if he is too far from his leader, he can't even operate? RAW is NOT common sense. You are abusing letter of the rule and dismissing the CLEAR INTENT. Let me guess, you are one of those that wouldn't let VC cast IoN into combat, even though it was STRONGLY suggested that they could by the text.

EDIT for spelling, I have Fat Fingers when I type

So i see you're not reading my whole posts. I clearly don't play this way. I'm engaging in a RAW discussion. Secondly, I am not taking Thanquol. I am taking
"Thanquol and Boneripper" One is not greater or lesser than the other in the rules. And RAW isn't common sense, to some degree, its a direct interpretation of the rules. (its a different brand of "common sense" i suppose "common logic" or "straight reasoning" might be better words suited in this case)

Clear intent is also immaterial in a RAW discussion, since in a RAW discussion we're not here to discuss how was intended to be fielded but how the rules allow him to be fielded.

What do you think about those 3 units i just listed though? they have the same over all rules as bone ripper,
they dont fall under mounts , or monstrous mounts , they have their own leader ship and own entry.

As was discussed, Orion must be your general. As for the Sabretusks, they're bought in addition to. As in an upgrade. There's a couple of things needed there for them to be in the same level as Boneripper:
1.) Must be Unconditionally bought
2.) Must have higher leadership
3.) Must take up the same slot
4.) Must be a Named Character model

As to why I call boneripper a character is that he follows all the normal templating and listing as every other Special Character out there. I wish Thanquol came by himself and you had to buy Boneripper, or i dunno. something.

Also:

Thats a great idea , that means i get to have 2 Lord Bubbles , one running forward while the shut off bone ripper can baby sit the
rest of the army.

You can't have two generals. The rules specifically state you choose the one character with the highest leadership. Also there are many instances in Fantasy where multiple models take up 1 slot. (Chariots for example) This is just a similar case, for one lord slot you get two models that operate independently.

Sorry , i just have hard time not laughing at the irony of this sentence + bone ripper's rule.

Oh its completely hilarious. But its true :( Can Boneripper do whatever he wants as long as he's within 12" of Thanquol? sure can

Right, BUT, by your interpretation, both Thanquol and boneripper are Character found in the LORD section, thus making them both Lords. Now, you can't have two lord in a game under 3,000, so no one wishing to field thanquol in a standard 2250 game can do so. Or are you suggesting we are now getting two Lord character for one Lord spot? As for "one is not greater or lesser than the other" you are clearly wrong. If boneripper is outside of the 12" bubble, then he shuts down being that he is dependent on Thanquol. Thanquol on the other hand can continue to function without problem. Seem to me like Boneripper sure is lesser than thanquol seeing as he need thanquol to function.

You're right, you are looking at this from a pure RAW point of view, WHICH IS WRONG!!!

To correct an earlier point - you canot join a unit of skirmishers unless you are US1, so Boneripper can only join a plague furnace unit or, in higher point games, a screaming bell unit.

To correct an earlier point - you canot join a unit of skirmishers unless you are US1, so Boneripper can only join a plague furnace unit or, in higher point games, a screaming bell unit.

Are you talking about Rat Swarms? Cause they're not skirmishers. They are unbreakable and small. Boneripper can feel free to join them.

Arion wrote:Right, BUT, by your interpretation, both Thanquol and boneripper are Character found in the LORD section, thus making them both Lords. Now, you can't have two lord in a game under 3,000, so no one wishing to field thanquol in a standard 2250 game can do so. Or are you suggesting we are now getting two Lord character for one Lord spot? As for "one is not greater or lesser than the other" you are clearly wrong. If boneripper is outside of the 12" bubble, then he shuts down being that he is dependent on Thanquol. Thanquol on the other hand can continue to function without problem. Seem to me like Boneripper sure is lesser than thanquol seeing as he need thanquol to function.

I just pointed out how GW makes a habit of having multiple things take up one slot. Just because there are two characters doesn't mean that it equals 2 lord slots. Conversely there are characters that don't takeup _any_ slots. And yes I am wholly pointing out that you are getting 2 Lord level models for 1 slot. I don't see how I'm wrong on this point other than you telling me "you're wrong" and having that based on absolutely nothing.

Also you're still basing your judgement on what the model should be on a thematic component. Which isn't a rule at all. Boneripper shutting down doesn't mean he can't be a general. It only means if he wants to be your General then Thanquol had best be on the table and within 12 inches.

You're right, you are looking at this from a pure RAW point of view, WHICH IS WRONG!!!

We should totall encourage GW to write crappier and more vague rules that require lots of assumptions that your opponent is "A sporting fellow" and not one who , you know, reads his army book.

strange_eric wrote:I don't see how I'm wrong on this point other than you telling me "you're wrong" and having that based on absolutely nothing.

Other than your " im right" is based on absolutely nothing as well.

LunaHound wrote:

strange_eric wrote:I don't see how I'm wrong on this point other than you telling me "you're wrong" and having that based on absolutely nothing.

Other than your " im right" is based on absolutely nothing as well.

Other than the rulebook I'm staring at? Everything Im claiming is backed up by normal templating and normal rules.

strange_eric wrote:

LunaHound wrote:

strange_eric wrote:I don't see how I'm wrong on this point other than you telling me "you're wrong" and having that based on absolutely nothing.

Other than your " im right" is based on absolutely nothing as well.

Other than the rulebook I'm staring at? Everything Im claiming is backed up by normal templating and normal rules.

Like what?

LunaHound wrote:

strange_eric wrote:

LunaHound wrote:

strange_eric wrote:I don't see how I'm wrong on this point other than you telling me "you're wrong" and having that based on absolutely nothing.

Other than your " im right" is based on absolutely nothing as well.

Other than the rulebook I'm staring at? Everything Im claiming is backed up by normal templating and normal rules.

Like what?

First off, How do you know what model is a character? By what the rules and how army books are laid out He's either a Hero or a Lord. Ok So you're looking in the Lord section. Now normally you'd have _one_ model to stare at, he'd have a list of special rules and you'd bring him to battle and life would be dandy. But here you don't have an option. You have two completely seperate models, that dont sit on the same base, dont sit in the same unit, attack, charge, move around seperately etc. Now in this situation, GW would normally notify you of what can or can't be your general. Or they'd say something like "Boneripper cannot join units, and is just a regular rat ogre, etc" Something to let the player know that this guy is not a Character.
Monsters being characters is nothing new, they do it constantly, Dragon Ogre Shaggoths, Ogre Kings, Treeman, etc. So it can be expected that an ogre sized model can be a Character.
Well if Boneripper is a character and he's got the highest leadership, the rules (pg 97 skaven codex) say the Character with the highest leadership is your General.

The crux of this entire matter is, Is boneripper a Character? If you answer yes to this, then he can be a general.

The one thing that someone could've pointed out the entire time in this discussion is the Summary where it lists a dash next to Bonerippers name. Now, it would stand to reason that it means that Boneripper is akin to a mount/additional part of the model. But he doesn't follow _any_ of those conventions. So we're back at square one. What is he? What does the book tell me that he is? He just happens to follow all the formatting and lay out of a Special Character in a skaven book.

OK, here is the deal. Boneripper is Thanquols BODYGUARD. That means he id the body guard of THANQUOL. That is his JOB. He can't be the general. He is NOT A CHARACTER. You are making stupid argument for no good reason. You pointed out that he is an ADDITION TO ANOTHER CHARACTER.

strange_eric wrote:What is he? What does the book tell me that he is? He just happens to follow all the formatting and lay out of a Special Character in a skaven book.

What he is , is an oversight from GW. ( or its so obvious that GW didnt feel they need to bother to explain anymore )
I'll wait for yakface to respond to this thread. He is both more experienced and better at writing than me.

Arion wrote:OK, here is the deal. Boneripper is Thanquols BODYGUARD. That means he id the body guard of THANQUOL. That is his JOB. He can't be the general. He is NOT A CHARACTER. You are making stupid argument for no good reason. You pointed out that he is an ADDITION TO ANOTHER CHARACTER.

I agree , i think the only reason Bone Ripper's LD is so high is because so he can block off any charge and not run away in a turn leaving Thanquo shuddering in his own puddle of pee.

This is still going on, seriously?

Yes, by RAW, Boneripper can be the general. Every argument against it is a fluff argument.

RAI, nearly everyone is going to play it that he can't be the general, just as nearly everyone is going to play the storm banner as one use only.

Like Manfred said, play the game, not the rules.

There, no can we freaking drop it now?