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It has nothing to do with "I don't like that rule" but it has everything to do with the fact that Boneripper cannot exsist without Thanaqol and because of that there is no possible way he can be a character.

Kolek can exsist on his own and function with out any boundaries. He does not have a rule that states he is bound to another model ( in this case a character). Also there is not a rule that states Kolek is a Dragon Ogre Shaggoth, only a fluff description that states he is the oldest living one. Where as the rules for Boneripper explicitly state he is a Rat Ogre.

An Assassin is a Character choice and as such is not a gutter runner.

That he shuts down without Thanqol has no effect on whether he's a character or not.

The Green Knight has to stay within a certain area...Are you saying that he's not a character?

There can be no question that Boneripper is a character, its just a matter of what type of character he is.

He is at the very least a named special charqacter, because he hasa name and exists outside the normal rules. This is not unusual monstes can be characters, chaos had a named two headed dragon, named chaos spawn etc.

Some are lord or heo choices, some come out of the army allocation. Some cannot be general. Those that cannot be general hacve stated on their entry.

Boneripper has no such entry, but he does have his own named entry in the army book. The only restriction is that he must be taken with Thanquol.

This is stupid, and anyone who tried this should get a broken nose for their thoughts.

However, I'm pretty sure that Orlanth is, as of now, right. Or, at least, that this is a heap more complicated than that.

All RAI aside (it doesn't make sense, he's just a Rat Ogre, etc.), the problem is as follows:

When you buy Thanquol, you buy the Lord choice: Thanquol and Boneripper. Two models. One Lord choice.
This isn't like an elf riding a dragon that takes up a hero slot-both of these models are part of this Lord choice.

So yes, Thanquol is a character. He's a Lord choice. Half of one. Boneripper is the other half.

So what I (and I would believe Orlanth) is trying to say is this: Boneripper should have something, some little phrase or rule, that makes him unable to be the army general, or, better yet, make him part of Thanquol's equipment, or part of his special rules.

skyth wrote:Neither is a Dragon Ogre Shaggoth, but there is one that is a character.

Said Dragon Ogre Shaggoths use to have the option to be bought as either a Rare Choice or Character Choice. Said Dragon Ogre Shaggoth Lord is a Character as he's given special magic items, rules, is (I'm almost positive) mentioned with specific leadership effects in mind, etcetera.

A gutter runner is not a character, so that means that an Assassin isn't?

Are you even trying? "A Night Goblin is not a Character, does that mean a Night Goblin Big Boss isn't a character"? That's the exact same thing you're saying.

The fact that Boneripper shuts down without Thanaqol does not bring in any ambiguty as to whether he is a character. The general has to be the character that has the highest leadership barring a rule that says otherwise.

Thus with a leadership 10, Boneripper HAS to be the general unless you have another character that has leadership 10.

Bone Ripper is not a character. He cannot declare challenges, he cannot be attached to units, etcetera.

All the arguments that I've heard against Boneripper being the general boil down to 'I don't like that rule and you're a bad person if you play by it'.

By your logic: The highest leadership in my Goblin Army is a Leadership 7 model. However, it ties with the leadership of a Gigantic Spider. Could I thus make a Gigantic Spider my army's general: After all, said Gigantic Spider would be intimidating. It also is in the same character slot as my Goblin Big Boss, and there's nothing stating it doesn't count as a character. If my opponent says no, it's just them being a meanie because they don't like me having a monster as my general.

skyth wrote:
The Green Knight has to stay within a certain area...Are you saying that he's not a character?

I am not saying that the Green Knight isn't a character, but his rules do indicate that he cannot be the General and he cannot join other units.

I guess we will just need to see what the FAQ says.

Minsc wrote:

skyth wrote:Neither is a Dragon Ogre Shaggoth, but there is one that is a character.

Said Dragon Ogre Shaggoths use to have the option to be bought as either a Rare Choice or Character Choice. Said Dragon Ogre Shaggoth Lord is a Character as he's given special magic items, rules, is (I'm almost positive) mentioned with specific leadership effects in mind, etcetera.

Boneripper has special items and rules. Kholek does not have special leadership rules btw.

A gutter runner is not a character, so that means that an Assassin isn't?

Are you even trying? "A Night Goblin is not a Character, does that mean a Night Goblin Big Boss isn't a character"? That's the exact same thing you're saying.

No, that's the same exact thing that you're saying. It's the same argument that A Rat Ogre is not a character so Boneripper is not a character.

The fact that Boneripper shuts down without Thanaqol does not bring in any ambiguty as to whether he is a character. The general has to be the character that has the highest leadership barring a rule that says otherwise.

Thus with a leadership 10, Boneripper HAS to be the general unless you have another character that has leadership 10.

Bone Ripper is not a character. He cannot declare challenges, he cannot be attached to units, etcetera.

He cannot join units because he's unbreakable not because he isn't a character. He should be able to declare challenges as he IS a character.

All the arguments that I've heard against Boneripper being the general boil down to 'I don't like that rule and you're a bad person if you play by it'.

By your logic: The highest leadership in my Goblin Army is a Leadership 7 model. However, it ties with the leadership of a Gigantic Spider. Could I thus make a Gigantic Spider my army's general: After all, said Gigantic Spider would be intimidating. It also is in the same character slot as my Goblin Big Boss, and there's nothing stating it doesn't count as a character. If my opponent says no, it's just them being a meanie because they don't like me having a monster as my general.

I would say that mounts aren't characters. However, nothing in the rules actually define what makes something a character.

Warpsolution wrote:
So yes, Thanquol is a character. He's a Lord choice. Half of one. Boneripper is the other half.

Yes, I think you hit on how to word this correctly. Boneripper is half a lord choice, and so is Thanquol. They are just like Felix and Gotrek in this regard, in fact the two pairs are often seen as the anthersis of each other and are possibly destined to meet for a final confrontation, who knows.

Warpsolution wrote:
So what I (and I would believe Orlanth) is trying to say is this: Boneripper should have something, some little phrase or rule, that makes him unable to be the army general, or, better yet, make him part of Thanquol's equipment, or part of his special rules.

You have quoted me correctly, Boneripper ought to have had the special rule omiting him from leadership if that was what waas intended. Point being he doesnt.

Even more important he need not have. Boneripper makes sense as a puppet general. The theme fits Thanquol and Grey Seer mentality perfectly. The problem is not his general status but Ld10.

The entry needs fixing but I would sooner see Boneripper as potential puppet general with leadership reduced to about 8 and the unbreakable special rule.

skyth wrote:Neither is a Dragon Ogre Shaggoth, but there is one that is a character.

I'm pretty certain this one would be listed in the 'special characters' section of the book. Is he an add-on to an existing character?

A gutter runner is not a character, so that means that an Assassin isn't?

Gutter runners are listed in the rare choices section (incidentally just like Rat Ogres). Assassins, on the other hand, are in the character section of the book.

The fact that Boneripper shuts down without Thanaqol does not bring in any ambiguty as to whether he is a character. The general has to be the character that has the highest leadership barring a rule that says otherwise. Thus with a leadership 10, Boneripper HAS to be the general unless you have another character that has leadership 10.

If you really want to face LD 10 + up to 5 for ranks skaven, be my guest. I play skaven myself and think that would be grossly overpowered.

Or to quote a Spaniard: "You keep using those words. I do not think they mean what you think they mean."


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skyth wrote:That he shuts down without Thanqol has no effect on whether he's a character or not.

The Green Knight has to stay within a certain area...Are you saying that he's not a character?

Hunh? You mean like, on the board? Because there are no limitations on where the Green Knight can go, only where he appears at.

This is why YMDC gets abit hard to read sometimes.
Instead of trying to figure out whats really intended in the rules , it always ended up into a debate to "who is right" , instead of "what should the rule really be"
Now im seeing people selecting only certain parts of sentence to discuss on , almost like avoiding answering the main point of the post.

Vulcan wrote:

skyth wrote:Neither is a Dragon Ogre Shaggoth, but there is one that is a character.

I'm pretty certain this one would be listed in the 'special characters' section of the book. Is he an add-on to an existing character?

A gutter runner is not a character, so that means that an Assassin isn't?

Gutter runners are listed in the rare choices section (incidentally just like Rat Ogres). Assassins, on the other hand, are in the character section of the book.

And Boneripper is in the character section of the book. Thanqal is just an add-on for Boneripper.

If you really want to face LD 10 + up to 5 for ranks skaven, be my guest. I play skaven myself and think that would be grossly overpowered.

Stats can't go above 10, and Rank bonus is limited to +3. You'd be facing Leadership 10 with Thanqal as the general most of the time also. To me it doesn't matter...I am just saying what the rules actually say.

Green Knight has to stay within a certain area...Are you saying that he's not a character?

Hunh? You mean like, on the board? Because there are no limitations on where the Green Knight can go, only where he appears at.

The problem you get in when you start discussing intent is that you have no point of reference. Common Sense arguments hold more weight in general than intent arguments simply because none of us are the designers and do not know what they intended when they wrote the rules. What we can do is look at the rules and see what makes sense. In this case the common sense approach would be to say that Boneripper cannot be the General. The rules at this point ambiguous and as such the best option at this part is to take the least advantageous approach.

Other than there is no ambiguity in his rules at all.

I would say the Bodyguard of Thanquol rule provides a significant amount of ambiguity.

Seriously Skyth do you think that when the FAQ comes out it will allow Boneripper to be the General?

I think they screwed up and he shouldn't be the general, but by the rules, it is unambiguous that he must be the general.

Negativemoney wrote:
Seriously Skyth do you think that when the FAQ comes out it will allow Boneripper to be the General?

As someone who just read all of this from a neutral position I would say quite clearly none of them who are talking this point expect that, all folks are saying is, right now RAW says you can. Thats a more damning situation regarding the way the book has been written, rather than those pointing it out.

Personally I find it amusing whoever wrote the book missed that out, and in the meantime I like Orlanth's view, it does seem a very Thanqol thing to do.

No doubt in my mind it'd be FAQ'd to say Boneripper can't be General though, if and when GW get round to doing that of course. Maybe the polite thing to do is send a email to GW to point it out that RAW at the moment regarding this issue is maybe not as they had planned.

skyth wrote:I think they screwed up and he shouldn't be the general, but by the rules, it is unambiguous that he must be the general.

"Boneripper is a specially modified Rat Ogre constructed to guard the Grey Seer" If he is constructed to guard then how can he lead?

That's fluff not actual rules. There is no 'Boneripper cannot be the general' in the rules.

Its in the Special Rules section and is the first line. I would not consider that to be Fluff but actual rules.

It describes the rule and is fluff...It has no game effect. No where in Boneripper's rules does it say that he cannot be the general.

No it describes what type of model he is.

Thanquol -> Grey Seer
Boneripper -> Rat Ogre

a Rat Ogre is not a character I don't know where the confusion really is

Negativemoney wrote:No it describes what type of model he is.

Thanquol -> Grey Seer
Boneripper -> Rat Ogre

a Rat Ogre is not a character I don't know where the confusion really is

Irrelevant.

Boneripper is called 'Boneripper' not 'Rat Ogre' or 'Rat ogre bodyguard'.

He is a character of the subset called special characters. Special characters exist partly outside the rules. So you can have a special character who is of a type that is normally a monster or mount. Chaos has a special character dragon. he is a character not a mount even though Chaos dragons are normally only mounts for Chaos lords. The clue is in the name and entry special characters are individually named and have their own entry.

Boneripper is very clearly a special character.

There is no rule that states that Galrauch explicity states he is a Chaos Dragon but rather rules that say the he uses the same breaths as a chaos dragon as is considered a Dragon Sorcerer. There is no indication that he is the same as a Chaos Dragon apart from those references.

Where as Scyla's entry states that he is a chaos spawn but gives special permission for him to issue and accept challenges but is by all means not a character. This is the best example to compare Boneripper to.

The rules for Boneripper state that he is a Rat Ogre there is no indication that he is character and nothing that overrides the fact that he is nothing more than a Named Rat Ogre.

Other than he's unbreakable, has better stats and different equipment. It's made excessively clear that Boneripper is NOT a normal Rat Ogre.

Having the Name and being in the Lord section is all that matters really. It is 100% clear via the rules that he is a character.

What you are doing is the equivalent of trying to argue that a Night Goblin Boss is not a character because a regular Night Goblin isn't.

skyth wrote:Other than he's unbreakable, has better stats and different equipment. It's made excessively clear that Boneripper is NOT a normal Rat Ogre.

Correct he is a mindless construct completely under the power of Thanquol.

skyth wrote:
Having the Name and being in the Lord section is all that matters really. It is 100% clear via the rules that he is a character.

I would agree if he had his own army choice selection in the rules but he doesn't He must be taking with Thanquol and Thanquol must be alive and within 12" of him to work. He is 100% dependent on another model to survive. This is another example of why he is not a character.

skyth wrote:What you are doing is the equivalent of trying to argue that a Night Goblin Boss is not a character because a regular Night Goblin isn't.

That's a streach as the main argument here is that Boneripper is a 'SPECIAL' Character where as you are talking about a Character. What I am saying that that this supposed Special Character has a rule that states he is a Rat Ogre.

What you are doing here is ignoring and dismissing a clear indication that Boneripper is not a character.

I am dismissing it because you have not provided any proof from the rules (not the background, but the rules) that he isn't a character.


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This situation is analagous to having an O&G army with only Orcs in it...Plenty of Black Orcs, Big'uns, and Boar riders...With the only character being a Goblin hero with no magical equipment. The background tells us that no way would the Goblin Hero be the general as one of the Orc champions would have disposed of him and taken over...However, by the rules, the Goblin IS the army general.

ok so lets look at this shall we?
ok body gaurd rule states hes a modified rat ogre constuct tasked to gaurd Thanq. it also states the Thanq is the master, and thus boneripper is subservient to Thanq and will shut down if over 12 inches away from Thanq.
so the logical answer is :

NO!! he is not allowed to be a character.


however if you wish to play alone with yourself, and/or get dragged outa your local club and lynched repeatedly while listening to the just ridicule of your peers. i say go for it, just make sure before anouncing your intensions that someone has a vid camera so it can be put on youtube for all our enjoyment....

i truely wonder if people dare to ask questions like this outside of the internet.

None of that precludes him being a character, but nice of you to bring up the 'I don't like this rule and you're a bad person if you follow it' argument. Especially with the implied threat of physical violence.

not implied at all, if your willing in RL to face the consequenses of your actions with your peers i say go for it, what your peers do to you is their business, i just wanna watch .

as for 'I don't like this rule and you're a bad person if you follow it' i didnt say that at all. the OP is clearly trying to break a rule and use it for his own benifit.

but your right, he is a characte, he just cant be the army general. my fauxpas.

And what you are doing is a logical error, which I believe is called 'Argument via force or threat'.

The OP is also not breaking any rules...
If he is a character, the character with the highest leadership MUST be the army general barring a rule specifying otherwise otherwise. Boneripper is a character and does not have a rule specifically saying that he cannot be the general. Thus he must be the general.