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I think the 'duel' effect could be accomplished by having a psychic hood type roll off automatically occur every time a power is used so long as the appropriate model for each race is on the table. RoW would still have its place then, making the 'casting' more difficult and other items like psychic hoods, could add a +1 to the opposed roll so long as they are within 24", etc. It would make for more interaction and not add alot of time or difficulty to the game. Plus, the one time your LD7 weirdboy blocks a critical "Doom" on the nob squad its gonna be hilarious.

I think the 'duel' effect could be accomplished by having a psychic hood type roll off automatically occur every time a power is used so long as the appropriate model for each race is on the table. RoW would still have its place then, making the 'casting' more difficult and other items like psychic hoods, could add a +1 to the opposed roll so long as they are within 24", etc. It would make for more interaction and not add alot of time or difficulty to the game. Plus, the one time your LD7 weirdboy blocks a critical "Doom" on the nob squad its gonna be hilarious.

I think this is the easiest way to add in this type of duel to the game, however it would dramatically reduce the effectiveness of psykers. Ork Wierdboyz would be almost entirely pointless and you'd find it was generally just a Imp vs Eldar vs 'Nids thing as most of the other races lack a psyker, Tau would therefore become comparatively even weaker than they already are...

The problem is implementing any sort of change in the Psyker system to include this sort of duel would mean a total rehash of all the codexes a la Versions 2 and 3...

Yes it would be great to get a bit of interaction between the psykers and a system like above looks ideal. But as I said this ouwld mean a rehash of all the codexes to actually implement and would we want that?

FlingitNow wrote:
I think this is the easiest way to add in this type of duel to the game, however it would dramatically reduce the effectiveness of psykers. Ork Wierdboyz would be almost entirely pointless and you'd find it was generally just a Imp vs Eldar vs 'Nids thing as most of the other races lack a psyker, Tau would therefore become comparatively even weaker than they already are...

The problem is implementing any sort of change in the Psyker system to include this sort of duel would mean a total rehash of all the codexes a la Versions 2 and 3...

Yes it would be great to get a bit of interaction between the psykers and a system like above looks ideal. But as I said this ouwld mean a rehash of all the codexes to actually implement and would we want that?

I don't really think you need a codex rehash to make a duel type system work. Just need to identify an applicable model in each race. For example, you could say that Etherals have the ability to negate psychic powers because of a signature device given to them by their psychically minded allies. It wouldn't take much to make it playable in the interim and then give Codexes slight upgrades as you go along.

I don't really think you need a codex rehash to make a duel type system work. Just need to identify an applicable model in each race. For example, you could say that Etherals have the ability to negate psychic powers because of a signature device given to them by their psychically minded allies. It wouldn't take much to make it playable in the interim and then give Codexes slight upgrades as you go along.

Games workshop doesn't add new rules to codexes after print. To do this you'd have to add in stuff to every codex and the way GW work means they would rehash the codexes.

Also having this in presumably an expansion (or in 6th Ed) would mean it would have to say it supersedes the rules in the codexes, which then means they can't change how things work in later codexes without siome complicated system of defining which codex supersedes the rulebook and which don't... Meaning someone new to the game will be totally lost. Hence why GW would rehash the codex...

Still doesn't show a need for a codex rehash. If its something GW wants to do, all they have to do is a little WD article with an appropriate table such as the this:

The following models listed below may make an automatic dispel attempt. You may only make one dispel attempt per successful psychic power cast, even if you have multiple models able to make dispel attempts.

CODEX UNITS
SM Librarian
CSM Sorceror, Sorceror Lord
ELDAR Farseer, Warlock
DARK ELDAR Haemonculus
TYRANIDS Hive Tyrant, Zoanthrope
NECRONS Pariah
TAU Ethereal
ORKS Weirdboy
DH Justicars, GK Captain, GK Grandmaster, Inquisitors
WH Inquisitors

Quick and simple. All you have to do is write the appropriate fluff reasons why non-psykers can protect their forces (i.e. wargear piece, unique resistance because of non-warp signature, etc.). Easy way to revamp psychic powers to give more of a duel feel without any need to rewrite codexes or core rules.

That is a good look at the rules for Psychics in 40k PanzerLeader.

However, i think GW needs to tone down the Psychic power and Magic in both systems.

For WHFB; magic has the ability to overwhlem the game and break armies. Magic and Psychic powers should enhance an army in either system not be a totally over-powering and game winner without even getting in to combat.

Besides the ability to null the opponents power in 40k i think it is an alright system. Better balanced than WHFB.

Platuan4th wrote:I think both 40K and Fantasy should go back to having a card game in the middle of the turn.

I know you were being sarcastic, but I actually enjoyed that stuff quite a bit!

(I know, I know...)

Alpharius wrote:

Platuan4th wrote:I think both 40K and Fantasy should go back to having a card game in the middle of the turn.

I know you were being sarcastic, but I actually enjoyed that stuff quite a bit!

(I know, I know...)

Only half. Since each deck had more than 6 spells and the power/dispel deck was intermixed, I think it better represented how they talk about the Winds of Magic in the fluff(waxing and waning at random). I like that you can choose the first spell in the list in the new system, but the greater variety of spells made magic a bit more fun. That's why I love Kairos and grey seers, they have so many spells available.

T'au could have some resistance Fluff wise. The line that says their minds don't register in the warp. They would be the dwarves of 40K. they cannot comprehend the warp so the mind altering prospects have a difficult time hurting them.

"Ignorence is bliss"


There is probably a reason the cards got "discarded" by GW.

lol thats so wrong, sorry.

like i said earlier necrons would be the dwarfs

they hate the warp and their tech 'negates' it

tau minds BARELY register so they would just be lame and get blasted

tau need to learn from necrons, oh and steal their inertialess drive too while they are at it.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Platuan4th wrote:

Alpharius wrote:

Platuan4th wrote:I think both 40K and Fantasy should go back to having a card game in the middle of the turn.

I know you were being sarcastic, but I actually enjoyed that stuff quite a bit!

(I know, I know...)

Only half. Since each deck had more than 6 spells and the power/dispel deck was intermixed, I think it better represented how they talk about the Winds of Magic in the fluff(waxing and waning at random). I like that you can choose the first spell in the list in the new system, but the greater variety of spells made magic a bit more fun. That's why I love Kairos and grey seers, they have so many spells available.

Platuan4th, did you like the old strategy cards too?!

so I put on my power armor and psychic hood....

Kurgash wrote:so I put on my power armor and psychic hood....

bloodninja lol.

Grey Templar wrote:I am aware of RoW and it is true that a Space Marines hood is 24", but you may not be aware that a GK hood has an unlimited range

Besides I can pretty much shut down your OP eldar psychic attacks for the paltry 100 points that a libby costs. while you have to pay for RoW.

on 3D6 the average roll is 10 so I have a 50% chance of passing my test instead of the normal 85%.

Hoods can NEVER be negated, so I spit on you pathetic, heretical, Xeno Tech.


And finally Nids have a very nasty thing called a Zoanthrope that can lay down the hurt.

RoW can never be negated either lol. And people play Daemonhunters? (plus you failed to mention that specific wargear). Theoryhammer can be good, but it always comes down to what happens on the table. OP psychic attacks? I don't rely much those anyway, I got the rest of the army that makes hurt.

Zoanthropes has been around for quite some time now *looks at 3rd Ed codex* ok, they didn't have Shadow of the Warp in that edition, but I don't find many who uses that, maybe in a thourny I would use it, usaly brings zoanthropes anyway.

As a Thousand Son I defo want more Psychic Powers.

And for the love of Tzeentch, can the Sorceror God Worshippers have some defence against enemy powers?
Resurrect the Warp Blade or the Talisman of Tzeentch.

Thorheim wrote:You sir, are not aware of the little wargear called Runes of Warding. No range (compared to your psychic hood of 24"), All enemy psychic tests must be taken on 3d6 and suffering a PotW attack on any roll of 12 or above.

No sir, I look down on your pathetical mon-keigh "technology".

Ld 10 chance of Psychic Success (Vs RoW)= 62.5%
Ld 10 chance of Psychic Success (Vs Psychic Hood)= ~56%

Not just "no", but "HELL NO".

GW did it in 2nd edition, and it sucked. I know. I played 2nd edition, and it sucked. Here's why:


40k is a tactical game more than anything else. It's hard to integrate psychics into a tactical game when you have distinct phases. ie: movement (and charges in 2nd edition), shooting, "assaults" (3rd edition) or "hand to hand combat phase" (up to 2nd edition), etc. The fact that you had to use psychic powers in a separate phase meant that you could never use them in a coordinated fashion.

Why is this important? Well, for some armies it's not. Eldar, for instance, do everything at the beginning of the turn. Marine powers include mostly shooting attacks and movement powers, which have to be done in that phase. Why? Because you want to shoot, say, Avenger, at something before you assault it. Or you want to Gate somewhere before you shoot whatever's closeby.


2nd edition had a lot of slowed rules, ie: shoot the closest target, charge in the movement phase (can't fire before assault), a goofy deep strike, awful jump pack rules, vehicle datafaxes (cute but not streamlined), "wargear cards", incredible cheese (ok my 100 pt Assassin with polymorphine, a displacer field, and Terminator armor on a bike shows up next to your Land Raider and Hello Vortex Grenade!), and last but not least, the psychic phase.


Goodbye psychic phase, may you burn in hell.

incredible cheese (ok my 100 pt Assassin with polymorphine, a displacer field, and Terminator armor on a bike shows up next to your Land Raider and Hello Vortex Grenade!)

Not to mention the classic I'm Space Wolves so I'm going to take 6 Wolfguard all with Cyclone Missile Launchers and Assault Cannons and hit your entire deployment Zone with Krak Grenade in turn 1... Then Assault Cannon whatever survives...

Cyclone Missile launchers were ridiculous in 2nd Ed. There were lots of good things about 2nd Ed though (i.e. a shooting army was just as powerful if not more so than an Assault army, where as now everything is so scewed to assault, not to mention no Dark Eldar).

The psychic system was A LOT better than in 1st Ed. It was a fun phase too just a bit of a distraction and as you say no where near as integrated and felt almost like a 2nd game unrelated to the tactics of the main game. You have to remember a lot of the issues with the game were due to 1st edition essentially trying to be a roleplay type skirmish game using the Warhammer Fantasy Battles game mechanics. So things like the Charging in the movement phase which work fine in Warhammer came over, making flamers almost entirely useless...

2nd Edition was mainly a tidy up on the sprawling mess that was 1st ed and make it intoo a coherent game. 3rd edition was the first game really designed from the ground up to be 40K.

FlingitNow wrote:

2nd Edition was mainly a tidy up on the sprawling mess that was 1st ed and make it intoo a coherent game. 3rd edition was the first game really designed from the ground up to be 40K.

Agreed. And it really did help GW get moving, from a business standpoint. Not only did they sell a ton of 2nd ed boxed sets, but they also sold a bunch of Dark Millennium supplements that went with it. Which, for anyone who doesn't know, was all the psychic stuff and a lot of the wargear. Basically you had to have both.

The one thing I do miss from 1st edition, even though it's more cracked out than vehicle datafaxes, was the way shooting at vehicles worked with the template. In 1st, it was a lot like Epic, but more complicated.

The one thing I do miss from 1st edition, even though it's more cracked out than vehicle datafaxes, was the way shooting at vehicles worked with the template. In 1st, it was a lot like Epic, but more complicated.

Presumably you mean when they first introduced armour vaklues? Not the old a Vehicle is effectively just a large monster with 40 wounds from rogue trader...

When you aimed at a point and it would then scatter in a random direction and you could use you BS to correct to hit a different that point or another. Each point you hit had a different AV and would do different damage (i.e. you could only destroy a weapon by hitting it). It made War Walkers really difficult to hit but it was nigh impossible to miss a Landraider (which makes sense).

It was a nice idea and was great from a fluff point of view but very messy...

I would like to have a similer cover/shooting system to fantasy.

Think about it. If you are hiding behind a tree and i shoot a lascannon in your general direction, I may not see which tree you are behind and so miss, but if I do hit the tree your hiding behind you are so dead.

Cover reducing BS not granting a save.

I also think Weapon destroyed results should be randomized between all the remaining weapons on a vehicle. Or maybe glancing hits can only destroy Defensive weaponry.

@ Grey Templar: BS reduction is mostly irrelevant. Take a marine being hit by a Krak missile from a BS4 firer.

Current rules: .66 hits, .83 wounds, .5 save for a ~27% chance to kill.

Older/fantasy-esque rules: .33 hits (-2 modifier for hard cover), .83 wounds for a ~27% chance to kill.

Both actually work out to exactly 0.2739 if you want to be exact and the math does not change for any weapons that wound on a 2+ and have an AP of 3 or greater.

FlingitNow wrote:

The one thing I do miss from 1st edition, even though it's more cracked out than vehicle datafaxes, was the way shooting at vehicles worked with the template. In 1st, it was a lot like Epic, but more complicated.

Presumably you mean when they first introduced armour vaklues? Not the old a Vehicle is effectively just a large monster with 40 wounds from rogue trader...

When you aimed at a point and it would then scatter in a random direction and you could use you BS to correct to hit a different that point or another. Each point you hit had a different AV and would do different damage (i.e. you could only destroy a weapon by hitting it). It made War Walkers really difficult to hit but it was nigh impossible to miss a Landraider (which makes sense).

It was a nice idea and was great from a fluff point of view but very messy...

Exactly. You aim at a point then scatter.

Most realistic method, but that was back when a Tactical Squad was nearly 1/3 of a 1,500 point list. There wasn't quite as much going on. When we try to resolve such things for, say, assault cannon (3 sustained fire dice, oh noez!) vs. a squadron of warwalkers (oh dear!), it would be a minigame in and of itself!



And, ironically, that was also back when 2 Land Raiders came in one package for $20.

And we digress.

nuggztheninja,

nowhere did i say a seperate phase.

several times i mentioned that its the interaction of psykers which is sorely lacking

also this (interaction)would add to the 'tactics' of 40k even if done on a simple level.

do you not think so?

Exactly. You aim at a point then scatter.

Most realistic method, but that was back when a Tactical Squad was nearly 1/3 of a 1,500 point list. There wasn't quite as much going on. When we try to resolve such things for, say, assault cannon (3 sustained fire dice, oh noez!) vs. a squadron of warwalkers (oh dear!), it would be a minigame in and of itself!

And, ironically, that was also back when 2 Land Raiders came in one package for $20.

They were frigging ugly back then though and about the same size as the Rhino's are now... The system was really realistic but in the modern game just unworkable as we now fight small battles rather than tiny skirmishes.

However back on subject.

Yes I think interaction between psykers would be a good thing and it feels a little strange that on the hole the psykers effectively ignore each other as they go about tearing each others armies apart. The problem is that psykers are not prevelant in enough armies to make this work in a balanced way. Adding in psychic resistance to the armies the way the rules work now would basically mean everyone needs a new codex. You could try to shoe horn it in has described by others above but I can't see GW ever doing that.

I do like that powers are used as when is necessary rather than in a specific phase and I think on the whole the balance is about right, though they are becoming ever stronger (yes JotWW I'm looking at you). I generally prefer the pyschic powers that enhance or augment an army rather than the out and out shooting as that feels better in 40K. Stuff like Guide and Doom are essential to how the Eldar work. Whilst Nullzone and GoI give the Space Marines great tactical options.

MOMUS wrote:And we digress.

nuggztheninja,

nowhere did i say a seperate phase.

several times i mentioned that its the interaction of psykers which is sorely lacking

also this (interaction)would add to the 'tactics' of 40k even if done on a simple level.

do you not think so?

You've got psychic hoods and RoW for psychic battles and nullification, and aegis suits for psychic resistance.

Psykers can interact. If you want to be fluffy about it, play Eldar and mindwar an enemy psyker.


Personally I think it's perfectly fine as-is. Psykers are treated as a component of the army. In the case of some armies, they're just joe blows with no invul who can cause a lot of damage and offer new tactical options (ie: Space Marines), or they bolster your entire army and become a centerpoint of your plans (ie: Eldar).


IMO the psychic powers are fine the way they are now. There are a few things out there that will resist magic, and a few things out there that will nullify enemy psykers. Magic is just rare enough right now that it's incredibly dangerous while not being the centerpoint of the game.

If thats what you call interaction you must have some pretty stale games of 40k.

-that wasnt a personal attack

im thinkin with the next edition they could mix things up again

or have some optional psychic rules

the wargear and ONE power you mentioned barely scratches the surface.

there is such a rich vien of unmined material.

in 2nd+3rd ed things changed loads, so the argument about redo of codexes is void.

will be posting rules soon, constructive criticism welcome

I'd like to see it work differently for each race. For instance Necron Pirah's can nullify any Psychic power attempted within 12" of them on say a 4+, but Tau do a leadership roll off for powers directly effecting a unit (i.e. being doomed or Avengered, but not a unit shooting at them being guided or GoI'ed near by).

Whilst all psykers effectively have a psychic hood. The only different is things already with Psychic hoods either get unlimited range (rather than 24") or a +1 to their role.

This owuld actually tone down the effect of psychic powers in the game as they are again starting to creep up in power.

So the 2 races that don't have access to any Psykers (Tau and Necrons) get some sort of natural resistance (Necrons more than the susceptible Tau) and all the other have the option to take a psyker that gives them the chance to nulify powers one way or another.

I was thinking something similar about necrons
maybe pirahs or other nec units would add to their armies dispell 'pool' or have built in resistance

agreed about powers getting more powerful, i wonder what nasties tyranids have got revamped

tau would have to....die lol
no
maybe they built something after medusa as a secret project?

-set amount of dice each game turn, maybe option of saving one for next turn(power build up)
these can be used to attack or defend/dispell
psykers get +1 when power is directed at them/or unit they are in
something like that
what you think?

im on call and feel sick lol

-set amount of dice each game turn, maybe option of saving one for next turn(power build up)

Nah that is too much like the warhammer system. It should be a range/target thing where you always get a chance to nullify something under certain circumstance (i.e. having a Psyker within 24", or the attack being directed at your Unit).

Tau don't understand psykers or the warp at all so a technology fix I don't think would work. Hence my suggestion as Tau have average leadership and most psykers have LD10 they'd be fighting an uphill battle unless they had an Ethereal in their unit (which would make them almost useful). The only army they'd have a good chance against is Orks which again makes sense fluff wise the description being not that the Tau nullify the attack but they just refuse so strongly to believe in it that it does not effect them. Hence why it would work the way i said above as they can only in such a way ignore things that directly effect them rather than the ability to shut down their oponents. Also the Ethereals power exerted over the race of the race could be psychic (as yet unknown) so again the fact that the Tau would be less susceptible when an Ethereal is nearby again makes sense.

Pirahs are anti-pyskers so the reason for their power and how it works is obvious and they have the same chance of stopping any power no matter the caster because they just shut down the connection to the warp rather than have some sort of battle of the minds with the Psyker.

However you could put in a roll if 2 pyskers are rolling off the results are as follows:

1) Caster has the highest score - power is successful
2) Defender has the highest score - Power is nullified
3) Draw - Psykers are locked in a mind war, the power is nulified and neither psyker can attempt to use another power for the rest of the player turn and the next player turn.

What do you think?

Ok i think that could make sense
-each psyker has a sphere of influence (24range)

i like the roll off idea
i was thinkin maybe a table... (the word of dread lol)
with some 'interesting' effects, like 'power drain' or 'overload' = diminished powers next turn, pyschic pyrotechnics! :-D

as for tau
they are a bit of a sticker as they dnt have a firm stance on psykers... im not sure you can believe not to be on fire/exploded, otherwise they would chose not to believe in cc attacks.
im not sure ethereals are psychic as each force(fluff terms) must have at least one, yet they dnt warp jump
they could be controlling the race as a whole in secret

how about you can either use powers like normal or 'seek out' an enemy psyker using warp sense and attack him/her/it
this would be longer range than 24
just like fluff psychic sense

this could include effects like 'puppet master'
-move, shoot only tho

also would demonic units have 'resistance' or maybe 'deduct 1' from effect rule

great stuff!

T'au would have no resistance what so ever, because they are essentially soulless. Yes this is in the DEX.


Necrons would have some resistance because they have had eons to perfect their tech against it.

If these changes were made Hoods would have to go back to unlimited range and 1+ on the resistance.

Grey Templar wrote:T'au would have no resistance what so ever, because they are essentially soulless. Yes this is in the DEX.

The Tau themselves would be boned by Psychic Powers, but they could always draft some Psykers from one of the many alien races in their Hegemony.

p.s. I'm frankly surprised that the Kroot haven't eaten a Psyker yet and developed their own Shamen yet.
Many probably would be unstable as they have no experience training them but some Gue'la should be able to help them with that.