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Pika_power wrote:

TopC wrote:Would someone like to give RAW backup as to how you can attack from off table? This is exactly what tank shock is. An Attack

We've been over why a tankshock may be performed. Now can you please say why a model cannot 'attack' from off the table in this fashion?

because by coming on from reserve your allowed to do nothing other than make a NORMAL MOVE. Tank shock is not a normal move. It even states that INSTEAD of making a normal move under tank shock.

If you were allowed to attack from off table...imagine the things you could do w/ other races to break this game.


In essence the 40k world ends at the table edge. Beyond that nothing exists.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Gorkamorka wrote:

TopC wrote:Dawn of war is a standard deployment

Scout = special rule


What over rules what? the special rule, or the standard deployment? Special rule IMO otherwise whats the point of the word special?


Because an attack is an attack, you cant declare an attack from off table.

If your going to declare an attack legally from off table (which your not supposed to Via RAW) then you should by your same ruleset be allowed to make a scout move coming on from reserve turn 1.

So, even when the quote is right in front of you, you insist that units that have not entered the game, are not yet positioned just off the board, and 'must' enter on turn one can make scout moves?

And then you still refuse to provide any RAW backing for your repeated claim that you are prevented from declaring a tank shock because it is an attack.

You're wrong, I'll let other people repeat it until you get it.

yet you ignore past comment regarding: Special rule vs Standard deployment

whats the point of special rule if its not special?

TopC wrote:
Because an attack is an attack, you cant declare an attack from off table.

Quote this, best of luck finding it.

Pika_power wrote:
We've been over why a tankshock may be performed. Now can you please say why a model cannot 'attack' from off the table in this fashion?

Correct line of thinking.

TopC wrote:

Pika_power wrote:

TopC wrote:Would someone like to give RAW backup as to how you can attack from off table? This is exactly what tank shock is. An Attack

We've been over why a tankshock may be performed. Now can you please say why a model cannot 'attack' from off the table in this fashion?

because by coming on from reserve your allowed to do nothing other than make a NORMAL MOVE. Tank shock is not a normal move. It even states that INSTEAD of making a normal move under tank shock.

If you were allowed to attack from off table...imagine the things you could do w/ other races to break this game.


In essence the 40k world ends at the table edge. Beyond that nothing exists.

"When a unit arrives from reserve, it must move onto the table from the controlling player's own table edge" (p. 94, reserves)

"In his turn, a player may move any of his units [...]" (p.11, movement phase)

"When moving a tank, the player can declare that the vehicle is going to make a tank shock attack instead of moving normally." (p. 68, tank shock)

Sounds the same, except the player must move in the reserve 'phase', while he may move in the movement phase. That difference is irrelevant to our argument, because a tankshock is performed "when moving a tank", which both meet the criteria of.

In the interests of preventing future shenanigans, here's a quick reminder for everyone:

Acceptable:
"The rule works like this, because [insert relevant rules reference]."

Unacceptable:
"The rule works like this, and anyone who disagrees is an idiot."

Stick to the argument, stay away from attacks on people's intelligence or reading comprehension, and nobody will need to take a holiday.

All right, TopC, I'll give this a try.

You are correct that most models cannot attack from off the table. The reason for this isn't that 'the world ends at the table edge'. The reason is that you have to do things like have LoS, have a range, and you need to measure from the model. These things are impossible to do when a model is off the table.

However, a tank shock attack does not require these things. All you have to do is declare how far forward your tank is going, and then move the vehicle. We know where to assume the tank is when it's off the board (right at the edge), so we can figure out how where the tank will end up. Since no LoS or measurements are required, and at the end of the 'attack' (which is a form of movement) the tank ends up on the board, this can be completed using the rules as they stand.

Also, as has been stated, the tank shock is performed in the movement phase, 'instead of a normal move'. If the tank is allowed to make a normal move, the tank is allowed to tank shock.

Now, I know you're screaming 'but that's an attack. I want to shoot from off the table!'. We know, though, that models in reserve cannot perform any actions other than 'arriving from reserves'. When arriving from reserves, the unit can make a normal move onto the table. If the unit can make a normal move, and is a tank, it can make a tank shock move.

I won't get into why you're wrong about scouts until a later post, so you can't ignore the substance of this one and argue about that instead of why you're wrong about tank shock.

The move from off the table edge is considered to be a "normal move" and the tank shock may replace a normal move. In light of the lack of any rule explicitly saying you may not "attack" from off the table, you may tank shock from off the table.

willydstyle wrote:The move from off the table edge is considered to be a "normal move" and the tank shock may replace a normal move. In light of the lack of any rule explicitly saying you may not "attack" from off the table, you may tank shock from off the table.

Moving from table edge is yes a normal move.
Tank shock is a special move.

Tank shock is a special type of normal move. There is no rule preventing this from occurring as a tank MOVES onto the table.

TopC wrote:Tank shock is a special move.

...that is permitted whenever the Tank moves normally, provided the conditions are met.

Pika_power wrote:
"When a unit arrives from reserve, it must move onto the table from the controlling player's own table edge" (p. 94, reserves)

"In his turn, a player may move any of his units [...]" (p.11, movement phase)

"When moving a tank, the player can declare that the vehicle is going to make a tank shock attack instead of moving normally." (p. 68, tank shock)

Sounds the same, except the player must move in the reserve 'phase', while he may move in the movement phase. That difference is irrelevant to our argument, because a tankshock is performed "when moving a tank", which both meet the criteria of.

Just reposting this, because it seems it was missed.

Pika_power wrote:

Pika_power wrote:
"When a unit arrives from reserve, it must move onto the table from the controlling player's own table edge" (p. 94, reserves)

"In his turn, a player may move any of his units [...]" (p.11, movement phase)

"When moving a tank, the player can declare that the vehicle is going to make a tank shock attack instead of moving normally." (p. 68, tank shock)

Sounds the same, except the player must move in the reserve 'phase', while he may move in the movement phase. That difference is irrelevant to our argument, because a tankshock is performed "when moving a tank", which both meet the criteria of.

Just reposting this, because it seems it was missed.

QFT.

Point and...game.

Normal Tank shock, reserve and movement rules allow for this to happen. Since you can reach this situation by following normal rules, you would need a rule that specifically disallows this maneuver.

Since there is not one (AFAIK) it is legal.

Please tell me more of this reserve phase some of you seem to be stuck on. I for the life of me can not find any such thing. Because last I checked, Reserves are rolled for and arrive during the MOVEMENT PHASE.

InquisitorFabius wrote:Please tell me more of this reserve phase some of you seem to be stuck on. I for the life of me can not find any such thing. Because last I checked, Reserves are rolled for and arrive during the MOVEMENT PHASE.

Thus why I said " reserve 'phase' " and " movement phase ". Reserve phase is an easy way to refer to the reserves portion of the movement phase.

Ok, so you claim some sub-phase of the movement phase prohibits the usage of a type of movement.

TopC wrote:Its a turn0 movement by both sides before turn 1 movement begins.

Now you are just making things up.

Simply put though, a tankshock move, is literally a move, that COULD cause damage to an enemy unit. Its not a strait out attack, as it has no weapons profile at all. Hell you can play an entire game, moving your tanks in a tank shock fashion. If the tank hits nothing, guess what, all you did was move the tank.
Even when you come in contact with an enemy unit, it still isnt an "attack" unless the unit tries a DOG attack. You CAN tank shock from the table edge. It says no where in any rules in the book that you cannon tank shock from reserves, anywhere.

imweasel wrote:

TopC wrote:Its a turn0 movement by both sides before turn 1 movement begins.

Now you are just making things up.

He seems to have mysteriously disappeared...strange.

@TopC: Reserves wouldn't count as "Turn 0" since reserves (unless allowed by a special rule), don't come in on Turn 1.

Gwar! wrote:

Clthomps wrote:

It's Legal.

So how about a rules quote to back it up?

It's already been explained in this thread. No need to rehash it.

Then there was no need for your input. If you are going to post, without any rules explanations... it's your bad. If he asks you to post rules with your post, then he's in his place to do so, as you are supposed to by YMDC's rule 1. Even if others have said so or not.

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/253892.page

100s of posts just agreeing with what people said above doesn't help the discussion. He asked you for something concrete, don't be crass because you don't have anything new to add; next time, just don't post until you do.

However, I am not saying that we don't all +1 in threads... but if someone asks you for an actual reason why you are posting, be honest, you didn't have one except for the +1.

Actually, my reason for Posting is to inform the other user that the matter has already been dealt with in previous posts, and thus me essentially retyping what has already been typed out would be a waste of both mine and his time.

I had this question posed last night at a local store.. You cant declare tank shock off the table.... the Tank has to be on the table,( since its comming from reseveres), Plus in the Rules its say You turn to face the direction you going to tank shock. Also your declaring the tank shock from Off the table, any model off the table doesnt exist until it comes on the table.( am i right it the table edge is the world edge)
OK my Question is can you tank shock more then once??
Since Eldar have vector engines??? OK so you tank shock in the movement phase, and and since i have vector engine allowing me to move again. Can i declare another take shock?

StarGate wrote:You cant declare tank shock off the table.... the Tank has to be on the table,( since its comming from reseveres),

Ok. Why?

Plus in the Rules its say You turn to face the direction you going to tank shock.

That doesn't stop you from Tank Shocking. Before moving the tank on, as per the rules for Reserves, you assume the tank is moving on from just off the table edge. Nothing in the rules suggests that the tank about to so move on can not be turned in any direction you choose... Which is just as well, otherwise you would be forced to move your tank onto the table in whichever direction it was facing in your miniatures case...

Also your declaring the tank shock from Off the table, any model off the table doesnt exist until it comes on the table.( am i right it the table edge is the world edge)

There is no rule that says that models off the table don't exist. There are a few examples of models not on the table having an in-game effect (Autarchs and their Reserves bonus, for example).

From the moment that you roll your successful Reserves roll and go to move the tank on, it is a part of the battle. It moves onto the table normally. And tanks moving normally can choose to instead perform a tank shock.

OK my Question is can you tank shock more then once??

Tank shock is performed as a part of your movement. If the tank can move more than once, it could theoretically Tank Shock more than once.

Since Eldar have vector engines??? OK so you tank shock in the movement phase, and and since i have vector engine allowing me to move again. Can i declare another take shock?

I suspect that Vectored Engines don't do what you think they do... They certainly don't let you move twice.

OK how far do You have to be away from a emeny model?? One Inch Right, If the person is hugging the table edge, you dont have a Inch to come on to the table? Do you?? Plus dont you have to declare you Intentions before you do a action( like charge or shooting at a unit). If your in Reserves how can you. You dont know what coming on the table until you roll for it. Since you roll for each unit separately coming on the table. Yes certian character can do thing off the table in resevres.


Vector Engines allows you to move in the shooting Phases.

StarGate wrote:STAR Engines allows you to move in the shooting Phases.

Yes, well done. (I fixed for ya).

You do realise a Tank Shock may only be declared in the Movement phase yes?

StarGate wrote: OK how far do You have to be away from a emeny model?? One Inch Right, Unless, Of course, you're performing a Tank Shock. If the person is hugging the table edge, you dont have a Inch to come on to the table? You can declare a tank shock from off the table. Since it's a move. You can obviously declare movement from off the table, otherwise it would be impossible to ever come in from reserves. Do you?? Plus dont you have to declare you Intentions before you do a action( like charge or shooting at a unit). If your in Reserves how can you. By saying "I declare a tank shock" You dont know what coming on the table until you roll for it. Since you roll for each unit separately coming on the table. Yes. This does not, however, have anything to do with the discussion. Yes certian character can do thing off the table in resevres.


Vector Engines allows you to move in the shooting Phases.
Wrong, that's Star Engines. Might I suggest that, since you're mistaken about that and haven't bothered looking it up, maybe you could try looking up rules relevant to the tank shock discussion?

OK Since you say its ok to tank shock from off the table... and since i run a pure infantry army , I can skip the movement phase and shooting phase,( in the are book it doesnt really state that you have to move or shoot or do any actions when its your turn , basicly you can skip your turn if you want.) So my questions why cant you delclare a charge from Off the table, If I declare it before my reverse??, Since a tank shock is an attack right?

Sorry i dont play eldar, i just happen to over hear the discussion, they were having about a second tank shock, using vector or star engines but its still a movement am I right?

StarGate wrote:OK Since you say its ok to tank shock from off the table... and since i run a pure infantry army , I can skip the movement phase and shooting phase,( in the are book it doesnt really state that you have to move or shoot or do any actions when its your turn , basicly you can skip your turn if you want.) So my questions why cant you delclare a charge from Off the table, If I declare it before my reverse??, Since a tank shock is an attack right?

Sorry i dont play eldar, i just happen to over hear the discussion, they were having about a second tank shock, using vector or star engines but its still a movement am I right?

Errm... How about the rule that says you HAVE to move your models onto the table from reserves when they arrive?

OK so if your right with this tank shocking ruling , go to a GT and try it and get the official wording on it. Is the only real way of seeing if it Legal or illegal. Right or wrong?

StarGate wrote:OK so if your right with this tank shocking ruling , go to a GT and try it and get the official wording on it. Is the only real way of seeing if it Legal or illegal. Right or wrong?

No, the only way of seeing if it is Illegal or Legal is to read the rules. The Rules say it's legal.

StarGate wrote:OK so if your right with this tank shocking ruling , go to a GT and try it and get the official wording on it. Is the only real way of seeing if it Legal or illegal. Right or wrong?

You mean if it's legal or illegal for that GT?

Sure.

Any place else?

No.