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Dashofpepper wrote:Flightmek, you're deftly dodging around the point with holier-than-thou self-defense that isn't warranted.

No one is arguing that you shouldn't take max Lootas when possible. We *all* agree on that. No one is personally attacking you either.

Where we differ is this:

You think taking 5 Lootas is preferable to 0 Lootas.
I think taking 0 Lootas is preferable to 5 Lootas.

There's no perfect scenario required for killing 5 Lootas - your examples are bordering ridiculous. Its a matter of simple firepower...its not that a speeder with a flamer is ideally situated for killing Lootas (they could kill a full Loota squad too) but the fact that statistics are NOT in favor of the Lootas, and that any firepower from anything that can range them can take them off the table. Leadership 7 means a 50% chance to fail leadership and run. A coversave of 4+ means a 50% chance of failing. Only 5 models?

Even if this Loota squad loses 2-3 models and passes leadership, it leaves a 2-3 ork squad needing 5+ to hit without the barrage of shots that makes them effective in the first place. There's simply no win in this.

In a kill point game the 5 lootas may be a liability. I still consider them worth the risk because if you go first they have a chance of making back that kill point instantly with a shot at a rhino or similar AV 11 vehicle.

In every other game (66% of them) it's strictly better than not filling the slot.

If your opponent kills the unit you lost a whopping 75 points worth of models and forced one to two units of long range shooting to respect it. As I explained in an earlier post, even 5 lootas has a decent chance to shake or stun an enemy manticore or vendetta or medusa or whirlwind or thunderfire cannon or other such long range shooting vehicle or artillery that can otherwise wreck an ork army even if it gets to fire for only a couple turns.

If your opponent shoots at the unit and forces a test a whopping 45 points of lootas ran off the table (since 2 were already dead). In a non kill point game why do we care about this?

Lets recap:

1) 5 Lootas can stun or shake an AV 11 or AV 12 vehicle or even outright destroy it which can have a huge impact on the game for minimal investment. If you've ever played against a heavy fire long range guard army you know you can possibly lose the game in just one round of shooting from your opponent, shaking a single pie vehicle for even one turn can save the game for you.

2) 66% of games are non kill point games. Your opponent wiping a small loota unit means absolutely nothing aside from 75 points lost, or less than 5% of a tourney sized list, which the lootas can often make up with 1 round of shooting anyway.

3) 33% of the time they may be a liability but only if they don't manage to blow up a rhino or similar vehicle before they get wiped.

So a majority of the time they are worth taking over nothing. Maybe you play in an environment where you get to tailor your list based on KP missions or objective missions but I don't have that luxury in the tournaments in which I play. So I will take the risk and the odds and figure the extra shooting is worth it.

As I said before I'd run them either maxed or mimimum size and generally avoid anything in between. Maxed at 15 gives me the best chance of staying on the table. Minimum means that when they do test I'm only losing 45 points.

The worst case scenario is to run something like 10. Under that scenario my opponent kills 2 lootas, forces a test, and then possibly 120 points are running off the table.

So run 15 or 5. But don't run 10 and certainly don't run leave the FO open.

I *do* like single deffkoptas. I fit them into most of my 1850 lists. With a 24" pre-turn 1 turbo-boost, it can be in your face and assaulting on turn1.

So you're criticizing small loota squads because they might yeild a kill point but simultaneously advocating taking single deffkoptas which indeed suck in KP games.

Make up your mind.

Kevin Nash wrote:
The worst case scenario is to run something like 10. Under that scenario my opponent kills 2 lootas, forces a test, and then possibly 120 points are running off the table.

I think you meant 3, but I get your point.

If I was playing against the OP's list, then I would ignore a unit of 5 lootas while I focused on his large mobs. Once they moved far enough away from the Lootas, then I would maneuver for a few shots at them. That would give the Lootas 2-3 turns of shooting to do a little damage.

I haven't seen too many lists that would use 36"+ range weapons on the 5 man lootas rather than the large mobs of boyz...except for maybe lascannon preds that see there is no armor to target...or lists with deepstriking/outflanking units...

Ok, so there isn't a lot of lists out there that I see would prioritize 5 lootas over boyz.

FlightMek wrote:Lets recap:
1.) I can not play you "General_Chaos" because I do not know who you are or where you live, nor would I like to. Thanks for "telling me what". I can feel the awesomeness seething from you!

Just cause this "tactic" works in your daddy's basement playing your little brother doesn't prove it's even remotely a good idea at all.

But let me rephrase my statement for you "If you play ANY reasonable player with minimal common sense tactical understand of the game they would see 5 lootas as an easy kill point placing them high on the target list" that better?

General_Chaos wrote:

FlightMek wrote:Lets recap:
1.) I can not play you "General_Chaos" because I do not know who you are or where you live, nor would I like to. Thanks for "telling me what". I can feel the awesomeness seething from you!

Just cause this "tactic" works in your daddy's basement playing your little brother doesn't prove it's even remotely a good idea at all.

But let me rephrase my statement for you "If you play ANY reasonable player with minimal common sense tactical understand of the game they would see 5 lootas as an easy kill point placing them high on the target list" that better?

More name calling. Seems you have the same "tactical" discussion approach as the guy with the lime-headed cat. We are all dumber for having read your post. You are awarded no points and may God have mercy on your soul.

Your argument is based purely on 1 mission of 3 (that's only 33% chance in case you are not good with math). Also, it has been pointed out so many times already by myself and others on this very thread that this unit is not invinceable by any means and is admittedly squishy. That was never a point of contention. We only suggested that this choice could manipulate your opponent to adress a part of the battlefield you decide on during deployment. For 75 points it isn't as horrific as you make it seem.

You are either a victim of A.D.D, illiterate, or ignorant. I Never - NEVER - NEVER said it was some huge tactical advantage. ONCE AGAIN: I simply pointed out that I did it in several games and the lootas did ok. I apologize - once again - if you are offended by the fact that my lootas weren't wiped. I am also sorry that myslef and the people I play with are dunderheads in comparison to your greatness. Finally, I concede that I am not worthy of an opinion when in your presence. <place sarcasm here>

You have proven - beyond any shadow of a doubt - that your desire to smoke someone on a forum outweighs your actual skill to do so.

OP: I sincerly apologize to you (no sarcasm) for your thread turning into a display of bickering. I hope you get a game in soon.

General_Chaos wrote:

FlightMek wrote:Lets recap:
1.) I can not play you "General_Chaos" because I do not know who you are or where you live, nor would I like to. Thanks for "telling me what". I can feel the awesomeness seething from you!

Just cause this "tactic" works in your daddy's basement playing your little brother doesn't prove it's even remotely a good idea at all.

But let me rephrase my statement for you "If you play ANY reasonable player with minimal common sense tactical understand of the game they would see 5 lootas as an easy kill point placing them high on the target list" that better?

Which is completely irrelevant in 66% of all games.

So I guess your point is valid 33% of the time.

I'll take those odds.

*ponders*

I'm always game to explore new things, and the killpoint idea *does* sound fruity when I'm comparing it against a single deffkopta. Believe it or not, I also admit when I'm wrong. =p I'm not sure that I'm wrong here, but I'm no longer dead set against it.

My 1850 list for an upcoming tournament as a single twin-linked deffkopta with a buzzsaw. 70 points. I'm seriously pondering the Loota idea.

Dashofpepper wrote:*ponders*

I'm always game to explore new things, and the killpoint idea *does* sound fruity when I'm comparing it against a single deffkopta. Believe it or not, I also admit when I'm wrong. =p I'm not sure that I'm wrong here, but I'm no longer dead set against it.

My 1850 list for an upcoming tournament as a single twin-linked deffkopta with a buzzsaw. 70 points. I'm seriously pondering the Loota idea.

I usually run both singleton buzzsaw deffkoptas AND lootas. The deffkoptas have burned me once. I played a guy in a KP mission who had ZERO vehicles. The Deffkopta was a disaster. That said in almost every other game I play? They are always worthwhile.

One Deffkopta? How do you keep them alive long enough to get them where you need? It would seem like the enemy would think of it as an easy target

As for my lootas dilemma i have decided to take out 6 boyz (making squads 25,25,30) and the grot shield (wouldn't have done much anyways) for 4 kannons.

daemon wrote:One Deffkopta? How do you keep them alive long enough to get them where you need? It would seem like the enemy would think of it as an easy target

As for my lootas dilemma i have decided to take out 6 boyz (making squads 25,25,30) and the grot shield (wouldn't have done much anyways) for 4 kannons.

They rely on going first. If you go first in a game, you can use your scout move to turbo boost 24" off the starting position, then use your 1st turn to move behind a vehicle, shoot it on rear armor, and if it is still alive, assault it. Since the vehicle hasn't had a chance to move yet, it is pretty much a guaranteed one vehicle kill, typically followed by the opponent eating your deffkopta.

And if you don't go first, you keep it in reserve and outflank it.

Oh right, I just reread the scout entry in the BRB. Hm. Now i feel like trying to incorporate deffkoptas.

Kannons or 1 deffkopta?

For mechanized orks...kannons if your battlewagons don't have other weapons. If you move 6" or less (or 7" with RPJ) you can fire the kannon as a primary weapon (STR8 AP3). If you move more than 6", you can fire it as a defensive weapon template (STR4 AP5) with the submunition round.

Dash, a battlewagon is a tank and cannot fire anything if it moves more than 6" as that is cruising speed. The tank isn't a fast vehicle so you cannot fire

Oops. I've been playing DE for a while now where I get to move 6" and fire everything, or 12" and fire one.

Yeah....I remember now - taking a battlewagon with a big shoota and a kannon, or a rokkit and a kannon means that you can move 6" and fire both the big shoota and the kannon, using the kannon's small blast template as a defensive weapon.

And given that its a small blast template, its a nice addition to your big shoota.

lol aye you get used to fast vehicles

daemon wrote:Oh right, I just reread the scout entry in the BRB. Hm. Now i feel like trying to incorporate deffkoptas.

Kannons or 1 deffkopta?

Man...you made us nearly kill eachother and now you're not even going to use the Lootas?! Just kidding, man.

I have not used kannons, but they seem to be a popular choice among Ork players who incorporate arty. I have used zzap gunz and find them better fielded with some ammo runts. If it were me, daemon, I would use a few kannons w/ runts over a single, tricked-out deffkopta. The Dks have some awesome options (i.e. outflanking, turbo boost, etc.), but I think your goal here was for anti-vehicle, wasn't it? It is strictly my opinion that a couple of kannon batteries have more survivability than a single DK in the anti-vehicle category. Even if you outflank with the DK, you only get one (two for TLed) 5+ shot to kill that vehicle. If the DK misses or doesn't destroy the vehicle - as others have said - it is dead the following turn.

My point: I think the kannon option (3BS, multiple attacks, two types of fire, more wounds, less exposed, two seperate units) is a more conservative choice than the DK. I would go with two batteries and include as many ammo runts as possible (only 3pts ea.)

The single Deffkopta is a suicide unit, plain and simple. If you get to do the turboboost turn 1 assault, it can pay for itself by destroying or crippling a much more valuable tank and/or Devastator-type unit. But you have to go into that with the idea that it will die, horribly, after it gets its job done. If you don't get turn 1, it outflanks and hopefully contributes something later or contests an objective with a late turboboost move.

I don't know if small Loota squads are worth taking or not; haven't tested it, but the "small threat" aspect might have some merit. But I can vouch for the fact that 10-man units are next to worthless. Part of that is that I rarely have luck with lootas, but that they are just enough of a threat that they get prioritized, lose a couple, and then run screaming from the board. So, I only take them in 15 when possible, and if not in cover, with a grot screen.

On the other hand, they are still orks and, amusingly enough, my 10-man unit was charged by a lictor once and they kicked his ass, losing only one loota to a rending attack. Guess it pissed 'em off.

FlightMek wrote: Even if you outflank with the DK, you only get one (two for TLed) 5+ shot to kill that vehicle. If the DK misses or doesn't destroy the vehicle - as others have said - it is dead the following turn.

...shake his head... The anti-tank killing power of a DethKoptas isn't the TL rokkits, it's the buzzsaw... good grief man

Lol sorry for the uproar on the whole lootas thing but i suppose it did lead to a somewhat insightful strategy for future use...(maybe).

Thanks for all the help i think i will go for the 2 squads of 2 kannons with ammo runts.

daemon wrote:Lol sorry for the uproar on the whole lootas thing but i suppose it did lead to a somewhat insightful strategy for future use...(maybe).

Thanks for all the help i think i will go for the 2 squads of 2 kannons with ammo runts.

No Problem - be sure to post a BatRep and let us know how they did.

I will. I won't be able to finish my army until a few months from now though as im buying it pretty slowly but i'll make sure to write one when i get a game in

daemon wrote:Lol sorry for the uproar on the whole lootas thing but i suppose it did lead to a somewhat insightful strategy for future use...(maybe).

Thanks for all the help i think i will go for the 2 squads of 2 kannons with ammo runts.

I laughed out loud on this one, too. This thread managed to make Dash doubt his koptas in favor of small loota groups, and convinced daemon that koptas were worth fielding over lootas.

I guess it's a testament to the points made in each side of the discussion. It's rare that you see opposed points make it through when both sides know they are right. Based on your success with that breakthrough, would any of you care to join in Mideast peace talks?

Now I'm not only doubting the lone kopta, but I'm second guessing my Kommando squad's size...

Dashofpepper wrote:Now I'm not only doubting the lone kopta, but I'm second guessing my Kommando squad's size...

Just put it all back. Put back the trukk shootas and whatever else you're second guessing.
Play the list you've been comfortable with and that has apparently led you to dozens of unanswered wins.

A GT list is not the place to test out new stuff or strange ideas, you'll have plenty of time to play around later and tweak it.

Btw anyone know where to buy kannons? I just went to the shop today and they said you can only get them online. Ebay hasn't been very promising. Anyone know where?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Btw for those who are curious. I just did some dice rolling for both 5 lootas and 4 kannons (excluding ammo runts) and came up with some interesting results.

For lootas it really depends on luck of the roll.
These tests are against marines out of cover.

When rolling the D3 you can expect on a:

1-2=5 dice rolled. 0-1 kills
3-4=10 dice rolled, about 3-4 hit on average, 1-2 die
5-6=15 dice rolled, about 4-5 hit on average,2-3 die

And there is always the really bad rolls and the really good ones so it varies but not really in your favour.

For 4 Kannons excluding ammo runts it would look a bit like this.

4 rolled
2 hit
2 die (unless you get that unlucky one)
Kannons have a more definite result due to instant kill and BS3.

Generally they are about the same but the only difference is that kannons have lower range and if they are shot at theres a low chance the kannons will survive (too lazy to do math). As well, the lootas would also most likely be found fleeing but at a farther range the chance of anyone shooting at them is low, especially when most people would only shoot at them later on in the game (due to horde).

The main problem with the lootas shooting is that they don't get the instant kill so the marines can save a lot with their stupid power armour but against anything t3 the lootas will be by far the better choice due to range and multitude of hits.

Just on a side note as my third choice for my support unit in my army:the single deffkopta

With or without the first turn assault the deffkopta is going to do something. (unless you don't get the flank you want). The problem with the kopta is that it is a one turn use and really depends on how the opponent rolls for his damage chart. On the slight up side, the kopta will be sure to take out its target unlike the grots and lootas which are pecking at things due to their low numbers.

In other words i am rethinking my choice on the kannons for 5 lootas as their only weakness is high toughness/save units. (They have about the same effect on vehicles)

daemon wrote:Btw anyone know where to buy kannons? I just went to the shop today and they said you can only get them online. Ebay hasn't been very promising. Anyone know where?

Games Workshop's website sells them. You'll never get a discount there, but they do free shipping if you have it shipped to one of your local stores. They figure they'll make up the shipping cost as you are likely to buy something else while you are there.

http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/catalog/armySubUnitCats.jsp?catId=cat1020018&rootCatGameStyle=

daemon wrote:Btw anyone know where to buy kannons? I just went to the shop today and they said you can only get them online. Ebay hasn't been very promising. Anyone know where?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Btw for those who are curious. I just did some dice rolling for both 5 lootas and 4 kannons (excluding ammo runts) and came up with some interesting results.

For lootas it really depends on luck of the roll.
These tests are against marines out of cover.

When rolling the D3 you can expect on a:

1-2=5 dice rolled. 0-1 kills
3-4=10 dice rolled, about 3-4 hit on average, 1-2 die
5-6=15 dice rolled, about 4-5 hit on average,2-3 die

And there is always the really bad rolls and the really good ones so it varies but not really in your favour.

For 4 Kannons excluding ammo runts it would look a bit like this.

4 rolled
2 hit
2 die (unless you get that unlucky one)
Kannons have a more definite result due to instant kill and BS3.

Generally they are about the same but the only difference is that kannons have lower range and if they are shot at theres a low chance the kannons will survive (too lazy to do math). As well, the lootas would also most likely be found fleeing but at a farther range the chance of anyone shooting at them is low, especially when most people would only shoot at them later on in the game (due to horde).

The main problem with the lootas shooting is that they don't get the instant kill so the marines can save a lot with their stupid power armour but against anything t3 the lootas will be by far the better choice due to range and multitude of hits.

Just on a side note as my third choice for my support unit in my army:the single deffkopta

With or without the first turn assault the deffkopta is going to do something. (unless you don't get the flank you want). The problem with the kopta is that it is a one turn use and really depends on how the opponent rolls for his damage chart. On the slight up side, the kopta will be sure to take out its target unlike the grots and lootas which are pecking at things due to their low numbers.

In other words i am rethinking my choice on the kannons for 5 lootas as their only weakness is high toughness/save units. (They have about the same effect on vehicles)

It is an interesting comparison point for point but there are differences as you've already discovered. Kannons have worse range. Kannons are AP 3 which is nice against marines and even better against MC nids. Also notable is a lot of the time your opponent gets a 4+ cover save anyway. Don't discount the ammo runts as they have a huge impact at the beginning of the game when they are needed most.

That said point for point a small loota squad is almost the same as a kannon unit. The loota can expand well beyond 5 however and most importantly, the lootas aren't competing against Battlewagons and Killa Kanz for FO placement.

Also as I said in an earlier post you should really consider adding more or all of these options to your list since as a whole it's short on firepower. A kannon unit w runts. A 5 man loota unit. Two singleton deffkoptas with TL rockitt and buzzsaws. These would all make your list better and I think they all should be added. You have 4 troops, 3 of which are extremely resilient in a 1500 point list. You don't need that many. Just drop one and then add all that firepower. It will balance the list much better.

daemon wrote:Btw anyone know where to buy kannons? I just went to the shop today and they said you can only get them online. Ebay hasn't been very promising. Anyone know where?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Btw for those who are curious. I just did some dice rolling for both 5 lootas and 4 kannons (excluding ammo runts) and came up with some interesting results.

For lootas it really depends on luck of the roll.

I highly recommend ebaying IG Lascannons (or some other big gun) and converting them. You could also search for some other miniatures - maybe even toy pirate cannons - and convert those as well. The GW artillery pieces are expensive for what you get.

Here are a couple of pics of my converted Zzap Gunz:

http://www.dakkadakka.com/gallery/79380-Converted%20Zzap%20Gunz.html
http://www.dakkadakka.com/gallery/79381-Converted%20Zzap%20Gunz%20-%20side.html

Sorry for not posting actual pics - having trouble getting them in.

The only problem is finding suitable wheels. I got mine from a construction set that came with little vehicles (you can see one in the background converted into a wartrakk) at Kmart. You could use actual Trukk wheels too, I guess, or even a small set of treads if you find can find them.

They aren't too hard to put together. Not that mine are the most superb conversions, but they certainly look like Ork gunz and get the job done. I doubt anyone would question what they are and I would think that most players would allow me to use them as Kannons too (though I have never tried.) Just throw all sorts of bitz on them and paint them orky! You will get three artillery pieces for a little more than half the cost of a single GW Kannon. plus, you'll have a blast making them and all the other nerds at the game store will appreciate your work.

About the lootas - I have seen them shine and seen them blow. They can anihilate everything in sight or suck royally. This is a big reason why many people despise the 5-loota squad. Five shots is useless when you have a BS2, but 15 can do some damage. I like both choices, but Kannons - at least at the points we are talking about - seem more reliable than Lootas. Lootas can always surprise you, though, and blow the hell out of something huge!

Kevin Nash-You bring up an interesting point as i've never played orks so i have no idea how potent only 60 boys would be (one being with grotsnik). It kind of seems like the enemy would go through them quite fast even though you'd be able to dish out a lot of power. Could you explain more on how it would work. I am kind of skeptical (although it does sound interesting)

FlightMek-Thanks for the help. I will look into the lascanons. It sounds fun and i've always loved converting units=]. (I would use the ion cannon for a kannon but its just a tad big)

daemon wrote:Kevin Nash-You bring up an interesting point as i've never played orks so i have no idea how potent only 60 boys would be (one being with grotsnik). It kind of seems like the enemy would go through them quite fast even though you'd be able to dish out a lot of power. Could you explain more on how it would work. I am kind of skeptical (although it does sound interesting)

The key to generic boyz are getting cover saves. You can achieve this with terrain or simply by putting more resilient or expendable units in front of them.

In a grotsnik list I'd just put 'ard boyz with grotsnik in front (4+ armor w FNP) and then a full unit of shoota boyz behind them getting cover.

If I was working with your models and list I'd try something like this:


mad dok grotsnik
29 ard boyz nob pk
30 shoota boyz nob pk 3 rockitts
5 lootas
5 lootas
5 kommandos snikrot 2 burnas cybork
5 stormboys nob pk
3 kannons w runts
3 kannons w runts
10 grots
1 deffkopta buzzsaw tl rockitt cybork
1 deffkopta buzzsaw tl rockitt cybork

grotsnik unlocks cybork bodies on everything so I like to put them on units that provide value when I run him. Deffkoptas are a nice choice here (only 5 more points on a 70 point model seems worth it). I decided to put them on snikrot's unit as well for better close combat resiliency. Maybe consider them on the stormboyz too. I didn't here but it's an option.

I tossed lootas AND kannons in there for some fire support that lets you blow up vehicles before the horde of 60 boys gets to the enemy. Stormboyz are either counter assault for your fire support or can go block an objective somehwere. Grots stay in reserve as long as possible and score an objective on your side of the table.

I didn't see much need for a warboss in a list without nobs that already has an HQ. I dropped him.

The grotsnik with ard boyz combo is a neat trick and can frustrate your opponent as these ork boyz suddenly become choppy necrons. It's amusing. I've run a similar list in the past. I don't think it's tier 1 tournament quality but it's really fun to play.