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Orlanth wrote:

Alpharius wrote:

To be brief (because it is OT AND painful to recount):

R said 'Get ready for Confrontation v4 and Rag'narok v2! Stock up on your favorite models now!" and then pulled the rug out from everyone, canned metals and switched wholesale to a pre-painted plastic mass battle game.

Needless to say, many were not happy.

I didnt know that and would like to know more.

Trust me, no you don't.

Orlanth wrote:

Alpharius wrote:
On Topic: this sale seems great IF you live in Europe and IF you think R will be around for a while or IF you don't care either way.

Pretty much how I see it, though you can break even to non EU and US destinations.

Rackham for all its posturing might close, it clearly has no control over its manufacturing, they have Chinese fleas and are itching. This is the eventual fate of outsourcers.
While I do care I am stocked up for the end. may armies are big enough that if Rackham disappeared 'tomorrow' I would firesle up all the ONI i wanted and play on. Just because a game is dead doesnt mean its dead, in fact with no Rackham to feth up the rules fan editions can finally flourish. Near complete rewrites where needed.

See, here I would completely back you up. Rackham is NOT great at answering rules questions, but guys like Aftermath definitely are.

However, there is one problem. You say that just because RE does not support your game, your models do NOT burst into flame and you CAN still play the game they made and then moved on from.

That violates the only commandment that C3-lovers have. You see, when a company stops doing things the way you want, all of your miniatures disappear, you cannot play their game anymore despite owning a copy of the rules, and you absolutely, positively cannot continue your own support for the game despite having a strong passion for the rules. Well, strong if the amount of board posts is any indication. You have to sell off all your figures and then complain. It's the only way to make things like the way they were.

Scottywan82 wrote:

Trust me, no you don't.

Yes I do. I am curious and its good to understand Rackham, especially with the money I have been sinking in their games.

Scottywan82 wrote:

See, here I would completely back you up. Rackham is NOT great at answering rules questions, but guys like Aftermath definitely are.

Maybe, but my group is likely to DIY, with AT-43 gone we are likely to start over and fully DIY. we are calling the slightly modified version AT-44 and the complete rewrite AT-45.

Scottywan82 wrote:
However, there is one problem..... That violates the only commandment that C3-lovers have. You see, when a company stops doing things the way you want, all of your miniatures disappear, you cannot play their game anymore despite owning a copy of the rules, and you absolutely, positively cannot continue your own support for the game despite having a strong passion for the rules.

ONOZ my miniatures are going to blow up and catch fire.

Sure the Confrontation feth over might have hurt you, but that is because they went to a new edition and didnt carry the customer base though properly. If AT-43 goes under its likely due be replaced by nothing but dust ashes and rolling tumbleweed.

Scottywan82 wrote:
However, there is one problem. You say that just because RE does not support your game, your models do NOT burst into flame and you CAN still play the game they made and then moved on from.

That violates the only commandment that C3-lovers have. You see, when a company stops doing things the way you want, all of your miniatures disappear, you cannot play their game anymore despite owning a copy of the rules, and you absolutely, positively cannot continue your own support for the game despite having a strong passion for the rules. Well, strong if the amount of board posts is any indication. You have to sell off all your figures and then complain. It's the only way to make things like the way they were.

Scotty's being more than a little disingenuous here.

To be honest with you, I'm not even sure how the biggest Rackham apologists can defend the company for the crap that they pulled back during the Great Swindle.

Their stuff may be super awesome funtastic today, but that doesn't remove the stain of how they handled it.

Alpharius wrote:

To be honest with you, I'm not even sure how the biggest Rackham apologists can defend the company for the crap that they pulled back during the Great Swindle.

Their stuff may be super awesome funtastic today, but that doesn't remove the stain of how they handled it.

I have to admit, the Great Swindle makes it sound epic. I almost shot OJ all over my keyboard.

I think I am as susceptible to frustration over dodgy behavior as the next guy, but I still cannot figure out where the rage comes from over C:AoR. The game changed. It was well publicized, there was plenty of warning, they even produced some metal figures after the announcement. I think that's grade A transition.

I need another bandwagon to jump on - explain the Great Swindle? Is there anyone we can shoe-horn Jervis into this?

[quote=Orlanth
Yes I do. I am curious and its good to understand Rackham, especially with the money I have been sinking in their games.

That's a bit of a dramatization and it ignores some important points.

C2. Let's start there, since that's where R's popularity took off.

Miniatures magazines and RPG magazines such as Dragon and Dungeon started placing English speaking ads for Rackham figures. the rules were included in each blister pack. General figures held the basic rules, mages held the incantation rules, heroes contained the incarnation rules, faithful had the divination rules.

Everything looked SICK. Like amazing figures, breathtaking paint jobs. Look at the French Golden Demon if you doubt me. The painting of Rackham's painters was unstoppable, and they could make Nagash look like a Monet.

The game took off, and people wanted a real rulebook instead of reading a blister pack sized book. So, there were some important, helpful changes made and C3 was born. Rackham continued to sculpt awe inspiring metal figures, no more than 3 or 4 to a blister, same as GW as far as blisters go, but the figures were WAY better. there were a few super cool boxed sets too, for groups of heroes called clan boxes. Rackham even made battle scale rules called Ragnarok and gave us a slick boxed set for the game with two gorgeous full color rulebooks. Amazing stuff, and worth every penny.

All was right with the world.

AT-43 was previewed. Sci fi from Rackham!?!? I just pooped my pants in joy. SO freaking cool. The sketches were awesomesauce.

Then rumors began to trickle out... AT-43 was PPP. Prepainted plastic. Like Heroclix? Non non non, R said. Pas le meme chose.

And it wasn't! The first AT-43 figures were pretty nice. Amazing for PPP. The plastic was good, the game was enjoyable, much faster and cleaner than Rag or C3. So R decided that this was the direction they wanted to go in. And everyone freaked.

R announced that they were redoing C3 as a battle game in the same scale as AT-43 and ending it's metal line, replacing it with the PPP figures that ad done so well with AT-43. So no more metal. Not even casting the existing figures. They were destroying the molds and dropping their old sculptors in favor of the sculpting team they used for AT-43, which was a chinese toymaker.

this really upset the people who enjoyed playing C3 and C3.5 and Rag 1 and 2. they liked the beautiful metal figs, enjoyed painting and modeling, and loved skirmish sized battles with deep, intricate rules.

R argued that this would improve the game and help bring in customers who were not dedicated modelers and painters.

that's the argument. R made what they thought was an intelligent business decision. They were lambasted by their current customer base. I will leave my opinions of either sides actions out. This is - I hope and intend - a purely factual account.

Scottywan82 wrote:That's a bit of a dramatization and it ignores some important points.
(...)
This is - I hope and intend - a purely factual account.

Not to start a debate or anything, but that statement of yours is kind of arguable...

HudsonD wrote:

Scottywan82 wrote:That's a bit of a dramatization and it ignores some important points.
(...)
This is - I hope and intend - a purely factual account.

Not to start a debate or anything, but that statement of yours is kind of arguable...

Hence the hope and intent. I didn't offer much of an arguable opinion. I think everyone would agree with my superlatives concerning the metal Rackham figures.

Scottywan82 wrote:

HudsonD wrote:

Scottywan82 wrote:That's a bit of a dramatization and it ignores some important points.
(...)
This is - I hope and intend - a purely factual account.

Not to start a debate or anything, but that statement of yours is kind of arguable...

Hence the hope and intent. I didn't offer much of an arguable opinion. I think everyone would agree with my superlatives concerning the metal Rackham figures.

Scotty, if you REALLY think R was upfront and clear about what was happening with Confrontation and Rag'narok, well, then I guess I can understand your posts a lot better AND we're going to have to agree to disagree...

Hmm... If Rackham goes out of business, and then I can get stuff for pennies on the dollar locally, rather than merely half-off internationally.

Alpharius wrote:

Scottywan82 wrote:

HudsonD wrote:

Scottywan82 wrote:That's a bit of a dramatization and it ignores some important points.
(...)
This is - I hope and intend - a purely factual account.

Not to start a debate or anything, but that statement of yours is kind of arguable...

Hence the hope and intent. I didn't offer much of an arguable opinion. I think everyone would agree with my superlatives concerning the metal Rackham figures.

Scotty, if you REALLY think R was upfront and clear about what was happening with Confrontation and Rag'narok, well, then I guess I can understand your posts a lot better AND we're going to have to agree to disagree...

I do.

Just out of curiosity , i apologize i dont know what the original purpose of the thread is ( discussing the company or discussing the sale ) So i was wondering , for the people that are ordering , what items are you all getting ^^

Scottywan82 wrote:

Alpharius wrote:

Scottywan82 wrote:

HudsonD wrote:

Scottywan82 wrote:That's a bit of a dramatization and it ignores some important points.
(...)
This is - I hope and intend - a purely factual account.

Not to start a debate or anything, but that statement of yours is kind of arguable...

Hence the hope and intent. I didn't offer much of an arguable opinion. I think everyone would agree with my superlatives concerning the metal Rackham figures.

Scotty, if you REALLY think R was upfront and clear about what was happening with Confrontation and Rag'narok, well, then I guess I can understand your posts a lot better AND we're going to have to agree to disagree...

I do.

I don't know what else to say...

And the REAL story is too long, too depressing and too off topic to recount here.

If someone else has a link to it, or wants to bring it up somewhere else, sounds good to me!

On topic...

Enjoy the sale!

Ok, I can see how with AT-43's success that R would want to emulate that with C3 - no issue there and I can't see why people would get annoyed at that.

But destroying the metal moulds? Removing metal from the line completely? That seems a little drastic?

I mean, it's akin to, say, Ford starting up a line of white goods, seeing that they do really well, so they burn their car factories down to make more white good factories.

For all GW's bumbling idiocy and lack of talent, at the end of the day they still make 40K. Seems R did everything they could to kill Confrontation. Weird...

H.B.M.C. wrote:Ok, I can see how with AT-43's success that R would want to emulate that with C3 - no issue there and I can't see why people would get annoyed at that.

But destroying the metal moulds? Removing metal from the line completely? That seems a little drastic?

I mean, it's akin to, say, Ford starting up a line of white goods, seeing that they do really well, so they burn their car factories down to make more white good factories.

For all GW's bumbling idiocy and lack of talent, at the end of the day they still make 40K. Seems R did everything they could to kill Confrontation. Weird...

I see it as now different from the switch from 2nd edition to 3rd. It was DRASTIC. But it didn't invalidate anything I already owned. I still have second edition 40K. All the codices, and all the rules and cards, templates.... whatever. I could still play if I wanted. But I enjoy the post-3rd edition world.

The minis change was also drastic, but it's not like they decided to go ppp on friday and melted the molds on monday. They kept making and selling metal figures for over a year.

Scottywan82 wrote:

H.B.M.C. wrote:Ok, I can see how with AT-43's success that R would want to emulate that with C3 - no issue there and I can't see why people would get annoyed at that.

But destroying the metal moulds? Removing metal from the line completely? That seems a little drastic?

I mean, it's akin to, say, Ford starting up a line of white goods, seeing that they do really well, so they burn their car factories down to make more white good factories.

For all GW's bumbling idiocy and lack of talent, at the end of the day they still make 40K. Seems R did everything they could to kill Confrontation. Weird...

I see it as now different from the switch from 2nd edition to 3rd. It was DRASTIC. But it didn't invalidate anything I already owned. I still have second edition 40K. All the codices, and all the rules and cards, templates.... whatever. I could still play if I wanted. But I enjoy the post-3rd edition world.

Good luck finding a game of Confrontation v3. Or 2nd edition 40K for that matter.

The minis change was also drastic, but it's not like they decided to go ppp on friday and melted the molds on monday. They kept making and selling metal figures for over a year.

Alpharius wrote:

Scottywan82 wrote:I see it as now different from the switch from 2nd edition to 3rd. It was DRASTIC. But it didn't invalidate anything I already owned. I still have second edition 40K. All the codices, and all the rules and cards, templates.... whatever. I could still play if I wanted. But I enjoy the post-3rd edition world.

Good luck finding a game of Confrontation v3. Or 2nd edition 40K for that matter.

Scottywan82 wrote:The minis change was also drastic, but it's not like they decided to go ppp on friday and melted the molds on monday. They kept making and selling metal figures for over a year.

Sure they did.

AFTER they launched the new version of Confragnarok, going against what they said they were going to do, which was update Confrontation (skirmish) and Rag'narok (mass battle).

Really Scotty, what are you up to here?

Don't worry, Alpharius, I'm writing you an email right now to explain it all. I'm writing it in MS Word so I can be sure I get it all down. My position will be clear.

And my brother and I play 2nd edition 40K all the time. It's toned down since neither of us have guys armed with hand flamers or anything, but it's enjoyable all the same to use datafax cards and strategy cards. I'm probably going to sell it off soon though, as he and I no longer live in the same city, and - as I said - I enjoy 5th edition.

There were lots of more sad episodes in R story I will just name a few... things like, people at rackham pissing on everyone with claims like... our PPP is same level as our metal dont worry ( just to fans check 6 months later the crap level they were)... releasing paint lines to close one year later... the trash of Cryhavoc magazine for a spam newsletters... continuous antagonizing fans and continuous blaming fans for their own msitakes, censure on forums, so much shifting of distributors that no one wants to carry it... They completely lost it... not only the fans but all their credibility.
Theres so much crap that theres no point digging it all up... let it be dead and burried.

NAVARRO wrote:There were lots of more sad episodes in R story I will just name a few... things like, people at rackham pissing on everyone with claims like... our PPP is same level as our metal dont worry ( just to fans check 6 months later the crap level they were)... releasing paint lines to close one year later... the trash of Cryhavoc magazine for a spam newsletters... continuous antagonizing fans and continuous blaming fans for their own msitakes, censure on forums, so much shifting of distributors that no one wants to carry it... They completely lost it... not only the fans but all their credibility.
Theres so much crap that theres no point digging it all up... let it be dead and burried.

x2 x2 x2

I was also a big fan of Rackham - loved the metals, loved Cry Havoc and loved C3 (yes I did - and I am happy to admit it.) I have their board game and expansion and their brief foray into quality plastics was awesome. The Aberration Prime is one of the best models I have come across as a plastic.

I was also happy when they annouced they were going PP. If they can bring their talent to rank troops and leave me to paint the metals etc I was happy. Dear god. What a total feth up that turned out to be. Since my last metal purchase from Rackham I haven't spent a single penny on their products. The Confrontation minis are god aweful - the paint is shiny for god's sake. The detail has next to no crispness to them. Aweful.

The promise of resin seemed to die away so no more painting pieces from them.

I am sure I am not the only one who went from buying huge lots of models from them to zero

Hyenajoe wrote:

Orlanth wrote:
Yes I do. I am curious and its good to understand Rackham, especially with the money I have been sinking in their games.

Hummm, are you sure you do?

Get closer as I'm going to tell you about R sad story, or How my favorite game company died.

The sad story of R is always a pain for me, being an early player on Conf' (believe me when I say early).

Thanks for this. I raise eyebrows at Rackham every now and then. Just look on the AT-43 heavy sub-forum here and you will see plenty of discourse. I dont trust Rackham and I am sceptical about the companies medium term survivability.

So I want to know more.

On the other hand not being as Confrontation player I haven't had my fingers burnt and have no ill will as a result. Your tale is sad to you, i view it with complete detachment. Besides I also like the look of some of the new PPP Confrontation and might get an army or two while they are cheap.

Interesting how you mention Mage Knight though. I see a similarity of marketing sales and availability within the PPP industry. I collected Mechwarrior Dark Age for a little while, which was a waste of time and useful only as a marketing tool for Battletech during its limbo years.

What I am seeing here is the same pattern throughout, they are trying to run a company that is effectively controlled from the factories in China by someone else, who have completely different agendas. They might not want to produce this set or that set or this second run or that rerun when you want to because they have other contracts often for far higher volume sales such as mas market toys. If the factory has to get out steel trooper attachments or say Pikachus out to fill an order gap the yellow mouse will win all the time, because crap thought it is it has a market value likely thousands of times that of AT-43.

Rackham could control their flow when they had a foundry. The only plastic miniature company I heard of which can control its stock flow is GW, because it owns the plastics factory and distribution.

Knowing this I could either buy in big or not at all. A few units here or there is no good as if Rackham goes under I am left with scraps. If I buy in big when its cheap it doesnt matter if Rackham collapses tomorrow or not at all. i have a lifetimes worth of At-43 to play and need concern myself only with irreplacable breakages and calculating the possibility of the items gaining in value after a while.

H.B.M.C. wrote:I need another bandwagon to jump on - explain the Great Swindle? Is there anyone we can shoe-horn Jervis into this?

Here goes. Jervis manages to make a bigger hash up with more resources and no Chinese influence. Rackham ultimately has excuses, GW studio is 100% home grown feth up with none to blame but themselves. Had they better brains noone else should have a chance.

LunaHound wrote:Just out of curiosity , i apologize i dont know what the original purpose of the thread is ( discussing the company or discussing the sale ) So i was wondering , for the people that are ordering , what items are you all getting ^^

Well its about the sale and for one of my threads it has been hijacked suprisingly little, even the hijack is still partly on topic. Besides some of the comments are much welcomed and helpful with planning purchases. Rackham is having a sale (on topic), why? (on topic), are they in trouble? (semi on topic), should I buy minitures from them if they are/may be in trouble? (on topic).

I bought:
2x Storm Arachn
2x East Trike
1x Sierp
1x Fire Crawler

Compared to what I get from miniatures market this is a bit order. It also cost as much as I spent on MM for a 6000AP Karman army, though that price is without postage and customs.

Orlanth what bit or conversion will you do with the Trikes and the Arachns?

LunaHound wrote:Orlanth what bit or conversion will you do with the Trikes and the Arachns?

I think you think I have fewer armies than I do. Straight answer is: no conversions likely needed. I now have all four core armies. it may behoove me at some point to personalikse each vehicle to determine who takes what damage. For Karmans that means the little roundels you get on Tau transfer sheets. For Therians inking and for the human factions unit numbering usinf imperial guard transfers and some military modelling. I bought some Soviet tank and aircraft transfer sheets to decorate my Red Blok vehicles, especially those in the army box sets. All I am now lacking for my Karman army (which will bring it to 8000AP, alongside my other armies is the Karman army box set. My purchasing has been built around that and it fits in my army like a jigsaw piece. As the Karmans will likely need some drybrush inkwash and decorative work i will at the time buy some model sports car decals. Some go faster stripes etc should be enough to proper street cred for my Storm Mammoth. All this is in the future though.


However I might need to do a bit of creative painting on one arachn relay. From what little i know of the boxset, having never seen any arachn you get six in the box, one of which is as relay. I have two boxes so I will be using one unit of twelves or two units of six, this means alternately using one or two relays.

If I am lucky there might be a relay piece like you get in Goliath boxes, in which case one relay piece will be glued in, the other left swappable. If not a bit of knife or paintwork will make one relay more distinctive than the other, this will be my relay when I am using all twelve in one unit. I might instead do nothing and bitz buy one arachn in my next order from Miniatures Market. As bitz they are expensive, but an extra standard arachn would be a handy swap out for my second relay unit.

Oh I forgot I now have two Fire Crawlers and both are under decorated. UNA vehicles tend to have nose art as seen with western military aircraft. You know the art for Bad Dog, Number One, Copperhead etc. I have been looking for art to put on five of my Fire Toads (I can only have one Number One), different images on my other Cobra and some form of decoration on my Fire Crawlers. and this was before I knew I was getting two. The natural answer are of course reclining girls, and the occasional tail art such as snarling tiger heads etc. I can get transfer sheets full of pinups, mostly reclining in swimwear just by entering 'nose art decals' on eBay but it is difficult to find any without 40's hairstyles. Other stuff is harder to do, most tail art is set for as particular model of aircraft and is shaped as the tailplane. Pin ups on the other hand are recline alone. I can use Bretonnian Heraldry for one Fire Toads by painting as heater shield where the four aces are tampered on. But I want to get all the insignia ready balanced and right before I touch any of them.

Eh... i was just curious to what you use Trikes and Arachns for , i never thought or cared how many armies people own o_o

For example when i think Trike i think Grots Bomber,
and Arachns... i dunno thats why i asked you out of curiosity -_-

I, for one, was happy about R scrapping their metals because the metal they used to cast them were too brittle and soft for my taste. Most of my metal R-minis are broken at least in one spot each and with the introduction of PPP I could scrap the crappy metals and get something that survived both the gametable and my agility-disabled cat whom has no sence of his surroundings whatsoever.

Today I own 4 CaoR armies of respectable sizes and 5 AT-43 armies, the largest being my COGs that are based around 8 army-boxes (16000 points just that!). Needless to say; I have done my part to cheer on the new direction that R turned to when they ditched C3.

Also, I like the CaoR rules better then the C3 ones. (My giganormous Nefarious beast gets one-shot but a lame leper-goblin with a pointed stick because he critted me? Seriously... ) CaoR > C3 in my book in every concievable way!

Orlanth wrote:

LunaHound wrote:Orlanth what bit or conversion will you do with the Trikes and the Arachns?

Oh I forgot I now have two Fire Crawlers and both are under decorated. UNA vehicles tend to have nose art as seen with western military aircraft. You know the art for Bad Dog, Number One, Copperhead etc. I have been looking for art to put on five of my Fire Toads (I can only have one Number One), different images on my other Cobra and some form of decoration on my Fire Crawlers. and this was before I knew I was getting two. The natural answer are of course reclining girls, and the occasional tail art such as snarling tiger heads etc. I can get transfer sheets full of pinups, mostly reclining in swimwear just by entering 'nose art decals' on eBay but it is difficult to find any without 40's hairstyles. Other stuff is harder to do, most tail art is set for as particular model of aircraft and is shaped as the tailplane. Pin ups on the other hand are recline alone. I can use Bretonnian Heraldry for one Fire Toads by painting as heater shield where the four aces are tampered on. But I want to get all the insignia ready balanced and right before I touch any of them.

http://www.starshipmodeler.com/newshop/index.cfm?fuseaction=category.display&category_id=186

There you will find pinup decals of many types be it early 20th century, anime, or more modern.

I actually started a Warriors of Chaos army using all Rackham models when the Warstore had a sale a while back. Fantastic metals, and I was really sad to see them go away. Why they wouldn't bother to offer both buggers imagination, considering that metal is relatively cheap to make in small amounts (or so I am told.)

Man that still makes me sad every time I see them in my figure cases...

My order arrived yesterday morning and I finally got some time to get the models out and have a look see.

I had seen it all before because these were all supplementary purchases, except when it came to the Storm Arachn.

Here is the stock picture of one of the little nasties. Most web sellers use this image, including Rackham.


Here is the AT-43 comic strip on them rushing to to nestle ehind a low wall before detonating.


Then the references for the Arachn list them as the only size one unit in the game, smaller than all others, dirt cheap unimpressive statline, largest unit size for the army with a single, fairly average (for Therians) blade attack.

So as they are a horde unit.... I might as well buy two boxers so I get a full sized unit. Twelve little spider things will be better than six. I dont regret this, but the thought was rather premature.

They are a lot bigger than advertised, and they look mean. The stock image in general circulation, even on the Rackham website is out of date and likely refers to a pre-production model.

Rackham has undersold this one, if not underpriced. Put it this way, I stood one next to a Genestealer, no comparison, so I got out a Tyranid warrior and a Ravener. They were more of a match, in fat the Storm Arachn fits somewhere between the them and the 'stealer. Its on a smaller base but its easily as big as a Kolossus suit, let me clarify that, the body is not too big, about four foot across in real terms, but as we know a four foot sphere is much bigger than most men, though the size one is justifiable if it is a ground crawler. However the thing mounts on four legs which raise it to head height, taller than the puicture above indicates. The scything talons, yes in the production model they are different from the legs stick out the top, roughly face forward are as big as those on a Tyranid Warrior, and there are four of them. I like.

Here is a fresher image also from MM in the bitz section, somehow I never really noticed it before:

This thing is much bigger than it looks and the top talon will sweep clear over the head of a Tyranid Warrior.

Thanks for the heads up on the storm arachns. I sold my 8000 AP of therians before FFG dropped the line, so I was able to recoup the majority of my investment prior to the price plummet of the fire sales.

That, the other ** succubus and the *** strider was all I needed to complete them, but I needed the cash and felt it was better to keep my 10K AP of Red Blok instead.

Sad to see they arent as small as previously hinted at, even in the frostbite rules. But there is no denying they are a very fun unit ruleswise.

Keep the Faith, Orlanth.

I preferred the pre production version. I was thinking of getting some just for the hell of it.