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Captain Solon wrote:5 points?

I don't think any normal person wouldn't mind

but maybe a tounament, just risk assymetry.

What about 6 points?

Points on the dot or under. I've have never put an army on the table that was over, even by a point. I expect the same consideration. We didn't agree to 1502 points. We said 1500 points.

2 exceptions to the above:

A. A buddy trying out a new _____ and needs a few extra points to make it fit.

B. The opponent has tits. (But not man-tits.)

You're not obliged to use your full 2000 point limit, it is of course acceptable to fall under it. I don't see a good reason to go over, asking to be allowed to go a few points over seems to be the result of wanting all your favourite toys in the army even though you can't fit them all in. Tough choices have to be made as a general even if it means removing a favourite item and replacing it with a cheaper one.

In general I don't have a problem with an opponent going a bit over, but I think it's kind of silly to go over for the sake of semetry. A 1500 pt game is a 1500 point game. Why go over? Just drop the Stubber and eat the 5 points. If you absolutely have to have the stubber, then this is probably the best solution:

Raxmei wrote:Tell your opponent you're five over and offer him the opportunity to add ten extra points to his list to balance it out. He'll end up with a five point advantage but it probably won't matter.

You get to keep your stubber, and your opponent gets a 5 point bonus. If you do lose though, don't you dare mention the 5 pt "advantage" your oppent.

Its not a big deal if the unit is 10 or 15 pts over as long as its a friendly battle.

If we agreed to play a 2000 point battle, then it's a 2000 point battle, not a 2001 or 2002 or however much over. Under is fine, heck, I've attended 2K tourneys with an 1850 list. On purpose. It's fun. But over. No, not a single point.

Tournaments aside (as those are 'competitive') my experience has always been along the lines of one person saying "I'm X over can you match that or should I keep trying to adjust?" answered with either "Sure I can buy melta bombs for my Sergeants" or "Don't worry about it its only X points".

Personally I don't see 40k army books as so tightly tuned that any variance of less then 1% of the total is likely to matter.

Jack

insaniak wrote:

Eos Rahh wrote:But for freindly games 5 points is not that big a deal. 5 points has never been game breaking to anyone.

In which case there's no real reason for the player with the over-cost list to simply remove those 5 points and have a legal list, is there?

Aesthetics, fluff, etc. are viable reasons.

? OK, fluff says IG should have hundreds and hundreds of troops and tanks. So how many points over does taht allow me?

To me, we agree to a point value, that's what we play at. Want to go higher? Then in our initial agreement to play, suggest a higher value. After all, if we agree to play 1500 and then two or three days later you show up with a 1505 list, sorry, you've had time to tweak the list, it shouldn't be a problem to stick to our initial agreement and play as we azgreed. It's a trust issue. And if I can't trust you on keeping our agreement, well, what can I trust you on?

I'd go with the 'tell your opponent first' and suggest him chucking a melta bomb on his sergeant route if you really want to have the stubber on the tank if everything is WYSIWYG.

The thing is though, 5 points is quite a big amount when you think about it, especially for guard. 5 points is the difference between a mortar and an autocannon for example. - A fairly big difference for that rhino charging at you.

Personally, I've never much bothered with vehicle upgrades at all, so I can normally just say 'none of my tanks have any upgrades' and go on with the game. However, I do try to be clear with my character models, which is quite honestly, annoying as heck. I've got an old Imperial Guard Colonel/Lieutenant model armed with a shotgun, which I tend to end up paying points for as a boltgun (since they don't get shotguns anymore), however I'd be perfectly satisfied with neither a bolter or a shotgun and just having it be a simple lasgun or pistol. I've got the same issue with a bolt pistol on a Lieutenant.

Long story short, this ends up with me normally being 4 points over, or 1 point less. I play the army at 1499 points but at times I feel like I've crippled myself cause of those frikking bolters - "if only that was a lascannon and not a missile launcher...."

In summary, those 5 points DO have a big effect on the game.

The line has to be drawn somewhere.. and that somewhere is the point limit that's agreed on.
I usually won't complain for 1 or 2 pts, but I never do it myself. If an opponent asks, I'll check if its possible for me to add a simple (and useful!) piece of wargear somewhere to have the same total but if not, it will usually be 'no'.

Thanks for all the input everyone. I definitely agree with those who say that 5 pts out of 2000 is 0.25% over and so doesn't really matter.

I was surprised at how strongly many react to being over by even 1 point. I always try to put fun and good sportsmanship above everything else when playing plastic soldiers, so I have devised a solution.

I am going to add stubbers to both tanks (their models that is), but one will be manned and the other unmanned. This will differentiate my plasma chimeras from my other chimeras, and allow me (aesthetically) to keep my sanity.

The unmanned stubber will be just for looks, and I will run a 1995 list. Thanks again all!!

The game club allows a 5 point over limit and everyone that plays tends to have 1505, 2005, 3005, 5005pt lists..

The extra 5pts generally gets the players a specific upgrade etc but we have different lists for tournies..

I've always believed in the army with a story instead of a strict adherence and generally have no problem playing against people who may even have 50-100 over the pts limit..
I see it as a challenge personally..

apwill4765 wrote:

I am going to add stubbers to both tanks (their models that is), but one will be manned and the other unmanned. This will differentiate my plasma chimeras from my other chimeras, and allow me (aesthetically) to keep my sanity.

The unmanned stubber will be just for looks, and I will run a 1995 list. Thanks again all!!

I have to say, that's a brilliant solution! By differentiating the two, you can easily run with one or both depending on how your lists change, and you always have 10 points of flex one way or the other.

Under is fine, but never over. I don't want either myself or my opponents getting used to playing with an overcost list, it's bad form and creates bad habits.

That said, I don't see it as a horrible travesty, I just won't play or play against an overcost list.

Never assume it's going to be okay.
Make up your list at the +5 points. When you find an opponent, TELL HIM. Ask if he's okay with it or wants you to drop the weapon to bring it in at 2000 or less.

In friendly games, I'd be okay with it. When it happens in my regular group, we just tell each other "I'm X points over. Deal with it." Of course, that is a group of FRIENDS who have been playing together for YEARS. Also, it's never more than 10. Ten is about the reasonable limit.

--Of course, if the guy with the "over" list wins, it's because he's a "F***ing cheater" and, if the other guy wins it's despite the fact that the other guy's a "F***ing cheater." LOL


In a tournament... NEVER, of course.


Eric

I'd let someone away with it in a friendly game, to an extent, but would appreciate being told. Not at all in a tournament though.

Personally I say no. Most armies can shave a couple points SOMEWHERE to come at or under the game size. Id agree though with necrons, as they are pretty cut and dry as far as options go. But still Im with the mind that if you cant keep your army at or under the game size, then you didnt write up your list correctly.

I'd rather be under 20 than over 1. The points value is a ceiling, not a target, IMHO. If you allow a point variance on the ceiling, all you've done is set a higher ceiling.

Simple solution, if you go over points, you have to buy the other guy a beer.

I don't mind at all, though i would be a bit annoyed if the same player (or different ones) took advantage of this and repeatedly added an extra big choppa or what have you.

don_mondo wrote:? OK, fluff says IG should have hundreds and hundreds of troops and tanks. So how many points over does taht allow me?

To me, we agree to a point value, that's what we play at. Want to go higher? Then in our initial agreement to play, suggest a higher value. After all, if we agree to play 1500 and then two or three days later you show up with a 1505 list, sorry, you've had time to tweak the list, it shouldn't be a problem to stick to our initial agreement and play as we azgreed. It's a trust issue. And if I can't trust you on keeping our agreement, well, what can I trust you on?

I definitely agree with this if a game is planned a few days in advance. But when it's a pick-up game at a FLGS, sometimes those extra few points can require tweaking the rest of the army - and oftentimes, it's easier to just say, "Y'know what? Keep the extra points, I'll throw on a random upgrade or something to even it out." I know it's easy for me to tweak a list when I have a few days to put it together, but if I have 10-15 minutes to throw together a list to play a quick game at the store, I'm going to do my best to hit the limit and not be terribly concerned if I go a few points over, as long as I let the other guy know.

apwill4765 wrote:Thanks for all the input everyone. I definitely agree with those who say that 5 pts out of 2000 is 0.25% over and so doesn't really matter.

So, again, if that 5 points doesn't matter, why not just remove the offending item and keep your list legal?

I was surprised at how strongly many react to being over by even 1 point. I always try to put fun and good sportsmanship above everything else when playing plastic soldiers, ...

Is the poor sportsman really the person who is asking that you stick to the agree points limit? Or the one asking to break the rules because they've built in illegal list for no good reason?

That's what I don't get in these sorts of discussions... there's a perception amongst many players that those objecting to you going over are the 'bad guys' because 'a few points don't matter'. If those few points don't matter, just remove them from the list, and everyone's happy.

If you agree to a certain points limit, then that's what you should build your list to. It's that simple.

Solly wrote:The game club allows a 5 point over limit and everyone that plays tends to have 1505, 2005, 3005, 5005pt lists..

So effectively your club is just playing 1505, 2005, etc point games. Having the allowance for the extra points is completely pointless, because everyone will use it if its available.

Locclo wrote: I know it's easy for me to tweak a list when I have a few days to put it together, but if I have 10-15 minutes to throw together a list to play a quick game at the store, I'm going to do my best to hit the limit and not be terribly concerned if I go a few points over, as long as I let the other guy know.

So, you're showing up at a store to get a game in, and don't already have a list prepared? How very odd...

My friends and I have a rule, which is that you can have a 1% error margin. For example, in a 1500pt game, your list cannot, for any reason be under 1485pts, and cannot be over 1515pts. In a 2000pt game, 1980 is the lower limit, and 2020 is the upper limit. Works well because we only call it into play when we need to tweak a list, we always aim for the actual points limit.

insaniak wrote:So, you're showing up at a store to get a game in, and don't already have a list prepared? How very odd...

Hehe, I never write up lists until like 20 minutes before I get a game going. I have a rough idea of what I run typically, then I just tweak it depending on what I'm fighting (Swapping out certain things that are better for fighting horde than MEQs, for example).

No. no, and no! those 5 points could be a melta bomb that takes out a tank or a specialist hellfire thingy that takes out a hive tyrant or so on. 5 points does matter and there's a reason theres a limit. 2000 points means 2000 points. If your opponent can't fit it in, tell him to take a fig off the table. In a game as up-in-the-air with dice gods and rules lawyering and codex creep from army to army, I don't see it as unsporty to require that the other player plays by the rules. 3 extra points to me is a potential singing spear that could take out a land raider, and then I would have to hear about it afterwards. Save both players the arguement and just make sure you stay in points, is the way I look at it.

Friendly games, 5 points over I don't care. However, I never seem to have a problem, I always get to my 1500 perfectly, my CSM friend, on the other hand, is always off by a bit, maybe 1480ish.

BoxANT wrote:Simple solution, if you go over points, you have to buy the other guy a beer.

Seconded (",)

Locclo wrote:

insaniak wrote:So, you're showing up at a store to get a game in, and don't already have a list prepared? How very odd...

Hehe, I never write up lists until like 20 minutes before I get a game going. I have a rough idea of what I run typically, then I just tweak it depending on what I'm fighting (Swapping out certain things that are better for fighting horde than MEQs, for example).

I know this is going a bit off-topic, but do you ask your opponent what he plays before making your own list?

If "yes", how do you react if he says; "You'll see when we start"?

I think it's fair to know what an opponent plays, in an army sense, when making a list. Because they always know what I will be playing, and we don't all have the luxury of picking out of several armies when we show up at a game.

I would like to know I am playing against Marines or Necs or Tau or 'Nids for instance, when they know full well they are playing against Eldar (because that's all the figs I brought).

I don't need to know the details of his army, he doesn't need to know mine... but it is nice to know who you are going to battle against and try to plan accordingly. War wouldn't make sense otherwise (if it even made sense in the first place).

When both teams know who they are facing it can be a fun rock-paper-scissors sort of exchange between army lists and maneuvering accordingly, but when only one guy knows what the other guy is playing it kind of stacks the deck in his favor.