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Just once I'd like to see "angry college students attempt to swarm admin building, college police perform provolone beat down with mass tasering." Where's Mall Cop when you need him?

SilverMK2 wrote:

Frazzled wrote:Like math, science, business, geology, all that hard sciency stuff?

I assume here that you are talking to me?

I don't know the exact mechanics of the US system, but generally here in the UK you will pick a single subject, or two subjects which are generally closely related (although I have seen courses drawn together from 2 different study areas, similar to how I believe the US system works). All of these choices are offered by the university and as far as I am aware, you cannot just go in and ask to do subjects x and y, even if they are both offered as individual courses by the university. They have to be offered as a single degree choice.

So if you wanted to do "maths and German", you have to check the university offered a degree which was "maths with German" (or "German with maths"), rather than being able to pick the two subjects and just make your own degree..

Do American universities allow you to just pick a single subject? Or do you have to pick two different ones?

I personally believe that it is best to be the master of one subject, rather than the jack of several.

As noted, colleges and universities in the US normally have “general education” requirements. Like making everyone take a couple of basic English (composition mostly, but often including some literature) and math courses, maybe a critical thinking class, and then elective courses- say a couple of science classes, a couple of history courses, a psychology course (etc.), but you choose which ones, regardless of what degree you’re doing. The idea is to make sure you have some basic skills and acquaintance with areas of higher learning in general. As Dogma said, some of this (often including math and English) you can choose to test out of instead of spending the time and money on, if you already have a good base of knowledge in the subject coming in. Whether this is done in the first year, prior to choosing a major, or whether you choose a major going in and then take the courses (including the electives and interdisciplinary courses) in whatever order makes the courses most convenient varies from school to school and degree program to degree program.

Why cant the Americans be as self loathing as we are? You dont get any nooses in universitys in Britain, in fact, if you dont constantly apologise for the fact that maybe one of your ancestors took over somewhere via the medium of putting a British flag in it, your a racist piece of slime and you should be placed on the sex offendors register as well for good measure!

JEB_Stuart wrote:You can't do that and hope to gain any reasonable credibility. History is full of illogical people, so you can't expect logic to apply to it. Logic says Britain should have crushed the American Revolution, Germany wouldn't have declared war on the US, etc, etc. Simply put, we can only make points if they are based on credible history.

Logic doesn't say any of those things. Logic says that those things were possible, but that's not the same thing as stating that something happened. You're confusing logic with reason, they are very different.

JEB_Stuart wrote:
Trust me, I applied logic in just one paper in college, and it went poorly for me. My professor had a long chat with me on how logic is great in other fields, but it doesn't work in History.

I'm guessing you chose to describe what should have been done, rather than what might have been done. The thing about academic speculation is that it must always be clearly labeled as academic speculation. Of course, that usually won't stop readers from ignoring the label in order to score some cheap points during peer review, but that's why we have thesis defenses.

JEB_Stuart wrote:
The Mongol conquests against Rome? Or the later incursions?

The incursions during the 1200's.

JEB_Stuart wrote:
That is why you don't mix politics and conjecture into this branch of academia. It is a very dangerous path to take, and one that I am not willing to try and take.

Its worth noting that Orientalism was a reaction to what was perceived as the injection of politics into the study of history, culture, and otherness.

Frazzled wrote:Just once I'd like to see "angry college students attempt to swarm admin building, college police perform provolone beat down with mass tasering." Where's Mall Cop when you need him?

Pft. If the campus police did any sort of riot control, they'd be facing a swarm of lawsuits from some ACLU jackass claiming that there's "no need for fascism in an educational protest!"

Maybe. Of course you never hear about this on a college campus in the South. I know the school I went to our cops had real guns because of the neighborhood. Plus we have a different view on riots here, which is why, well they don't happen here.

Frazzled wrote:Maybe. Of course you never hear about this on a college campus in the South. I know the school I went to our cops had real guns because of the neighborhood. Plus we have a different view on riots here, which is why, well they don't happen here.

Well of course you don't hear about it in the South.

If you so much as look at a black guy wrong in the South as a white guy, you get called a racist and shouted down by church groups. The community college I go to has a huge amount of black kids from a poorer section of Raleigh who're on financial aid and do nothing but sit around in the student lounge all day.

I do actually mean "all day", not "in between classes". Had one day awhile back where all my classes for the day were canceled, and so I opted to sit in the student lounge and start filling out paperwork for the next semester early.

These kids never moved from the tv/couches. At all.
And when the security guards told them to go, they started screaming it was racial discrimination.

Never understood this white guilt/racial thing that happens in the US, i hear that stuff alot, its like everything you say is racist in some kind of way.

I think its slowed. Kind of like if england blamed sweden today becuase of viking pillaging during the viking age. Although i can't say i have very much insight in the matter.

I used to party at that school 14 or so years ago......feeling older now. (I was not a student....just a frequent face). I was not aware of anything like that in the past. Things change.

San Diego, like many big cities has it's share of neo nazis. I have been chased by a group on 2 separate occasions when I lived down there. Harassed enough not to go to certain clubs there as well. I feel whether the students intentionally ( which I think it was) made these statements and actions to have the meaning it did or not, they are representing the same ideals as the skin heads. I am surprised at the college for not stamping this out quicker than they are. Make a statement, expel students or send them to court ordered classes for cultural sensitivity. I do not believe those classes work, it is more to force the offenders from doing it again by annoyance / punishment. The chances of them learning something is like junkies, only quit if you are ready / want the change.

As for the radio station, I think a college run station has much free range in what it does. Without hearing the actual wording, if it is taken out of context, or satirically spoken I cannot make an assumption. If it was done to be derogatory however, I feel there is no place for that in higher education.

As for taking gender / cultural classes in curriculum, I think that is a good idea to include them. It is an expanding world, get to know it better and see other points of view. Should it be a prerequisite? I do not think so.

JEB_Stuart wrote:

Kilkrazy wrote:The majority power group often find it hard to understand that the default version of history/culture/social issues taught is their version.

From that perspective, black students are forced to take white oriented courses and it is not unreasonable maybe for them to want the favor to be returned. It isn't possible as the law stands now.

It would be better to have a unbiased course which includes the perspective of all racial groups.

No that would be incredibly slowed. I took an immense amount of history classes in college, surprise surprise, and the amount of information that was taught was incredible. Trying to teach it from multiple perspectives is both impossible but stupid. Then there is no standard on what history actually took place. Do you realize how much more history would be complicated by such a thing? Its hard enough to agree on major events now, Lets not make it any worse.

I was arguing with a friend of mine who goes to UCSD last month while she was home. She is black, and was outraged at this ghetto party. I am part of a minority, and I find the constant whining and crying by others to be disgusting and annoying. I mean it almost made me hate my own ethnic group for how much they complain! Anyway, I asked her: Would you be mad if this was a Redneck Party? And she responded, "No, cuz that isn't racist." I then explained to her that neither was this ghetto party. It doesn't say anything about being black or making fun of blacks, it was just a party poking fun at ghetto people. If it is considered racist, then you have to consider a redneck party racist.

I don't know what a redneck party is.

Anyway, I don't see what the problem is with acknowledging the biases in history as accepted from the majority perspective.

It is the basis of anti-discrimination law and plays an important part in human resources management.

Kanluwen wrote:

Frazzled wrote:Maybe. Of course you never hear about this on a college campus in the South. I know the school I went to our cops had real guns because of the neighborhood. Plus we have a different view on riots here, which is why, well they don't happen here.

Well of course you don't hear about it in the South.

If you so much as look at a black guy wrong in the South as a white guy, you get called a racist and shouted down by church groups. The community college I go to has a huge amount of black kids from a poorer section of Raleigh who're on financial aid and do nothing but sit around in the student lounge all day.

I do actually mean "all day", not "in between classes". Had one day awhile back where all my classes for the day were canceled, and so I opted to sit in the student lounge and start filling out paperwork for the next semester early.

These kids never moved from the tv/couches. At all.
And when the security guards told them to go, they started screaming it was racial discrimination.

There is a book out called "How to Play the Race Card and Lose". This is a good example. Many people say such things due to the reaction they get or it is an easy cop out. In that situation it was definitely the wrong move, In fact it is the wrong move 99% of the time.

Frazzled wrote:Maybe. Of course you never hear about this on a college campus in the South.

Jackson State 1970, and Ole Miss 1962 are two good examples. There was a riot in January over Lane Kiffin's departure from University of Tennessee.

Frazzled wrote:
Plus we have a different view on riots here, which is why, well they don't happen here.

They don't generally happen anywhere, not in the sense that they did during the 60's, unless they're tied to athletic events. Its been a long time since there has been a major, politically motivated, campus riot.

Well this sounds iffy. Cant make up my mind on supporting them or not. But then again i live in Norway

Can anyone defend a student putting up the noose? I can't.

On the other hand, I think using as a way to draft 32 demands is a little over the top. If I was the University President, I'd only recognize one demand - whoever did would be punished, and I'd try to expel them. There's no need for any mamby-bamby classes about diversity. There's a right way and a wrong way to treat people. Putting up a noose in the library is the wrong way.

When I was at Penn State in the early 90's, there was a black student journalist named Chino Wilson who advocated violence against the white "devils" and accused whites of developing the AIDS virus to wipe out blacks. I realize that as a white person, I may be a little biased, but my feeling at the time was that the university should have harshly disciplined him. And, I'd bet dollars to donuts that if a white journalism student had made similar attacks against minorities, they would have been.

http://www.collegian.psu.edu/archive/1992/01/01-28-92tdc/01-28-92dops-column-01.asp
http://www.collegian.psu.edu/archive/1991/01/01-24-91tdc/01-24-91dops-column-01.asp
http://www.nytimes.com/1992/02/16/nyregion/campus-life-penn-state-black-columnist-sets-off-a-furor-with-call-to-arms.html?pagewanted=1

And this is where political correctness has failed. It's made excuses for people. There's right and wrong, and both the noose and Chino's rants are wrong.

So, in summary, throw out whoever put up the noose and be done with it. No amount of sensitiviy training matters, but if people know they will be expelled for stupid stuff, they won't do it. We've made too many excuses for people.

I'll consider the possibility of unbiased history education just as soon as every 40K player in the world accepts the INAT faq, which is to say, it isn't possible.

I think campus police should have hit em with fire hoses....

er wait....

Non-lethal tear gas.......

Er wait...

K-9 support units....

Damnit!

Nerf Arrows and Twizzle sticks!

In all reality, I feel that this was a huge over-reaction on the part of the students. Hell, somebody spraypainted "Die Whitey" a couple of summers ago on the local campus, and nobody threw a fit over it much less threw a small riot. We just painted over it and moved on.

Some people really just need to get over themselfs and grow the hell up.

Commissar Molotov wrote:The other stuff - the insensitive party and the media in support of it - is indeed trivial and not worth mentioning...

But the noose is serious business. That's definitely a hate crime, and was most certainly placed to "send a message." Not as flamboyant as the old burning cross, admittedly, but just as chilling.

They definitely had a right to be pissed.

If they didn't make such a big deal out of it, the entire concept would go away. If you give an object power over you expect for it to be used as such.

If no one had mentioned it, and just threw it in the trash or gave it quietly to the police, there would be no story and the person who did it wouldn't have gotten exactly what they wanted which was a bunch of pissed off minorities and pissed of whites who are sympathetic to minorities.

Was it a bad thing for the noose maker to do? Certainly.

Still, I must place some of the blame for this continued phenomenon on the people who give a symbol so much power over their lives.

Bla_Ze wrote:Never understood this white guilt/racial thing that happens in the US, i hear that stuff alot, its like everything you say is racist in some kind of way.

I think its slowed. Kind of like if england blamed sweden today becuase of viking pillaging during the viking age. Although i can't say i have very much insight in the matter.

No, I think you've pretty much got it 100% correct.

As long as people keep pulling this kind of crap, some black people will feel genuine cause for fear. I tend to concur with dietrich that 32 demands seems a bit excessive, but finding and (if possible) expelling the jackass who did it seems entirely appropriate and right.

Monster Rain wrote:
If they didn't make such a big deal out of it, the entire concept would go away. If you give an object power over you expect for it to be used as such.

If no one had mentioned it, and just threw it in the trash or gave it quietly to the police, there would be no story and the person who did it wouldn't have gotten exactly what they wanted which was a bunch of pissed off minorities and pissed of whites who are sympathetic to minorities.

Was it a bad thing for the noose maker to do? Certainly.

Still, I must place some of the blame for this continued phenomenon on the people who give a symbol so much power over their lives.

I cannot disagree more. The hanging of the noose is the exact same level of vile escalation as painting swastikas on synagogues or burning a cross on the lawn. It's a very major warning sign that there might be a great deal worse to come. You ignore signs like this at your own peril, and if you happen to be the minority group, only if you are fools.

And the difference between a redneck party and the ghetto party... well for one you aren't going to have too many people attending proudly as "ghetto residents". Doesn't matter where you go in NA you'll get proud rednecks there.

As to Mattyms assertion about no nooses in Britian perhaps he should look a bit more carefully at his not quite so jolly old England. Nooses aren't required.

We're no better in Canada. http://www.doubletongued.org/index.php/dictionary/starlight_tour/

Racism is something that requires constant attention to stomp out, and ignoring it encourages it.

I think they'd see less of this if they saw a noose and said something along the lines of "This is clearly the work of some backward, ignorant person. It doesn't bother me."

The hysterical reaction is a reward for the bad behavior.

I remember many many moons ago in a frozen landscape in the wastes of Montreal a University known as McGill had graffitti everywhere stating "Cut it out or Cut it off!" and "Men are animals". The radical feminisim was so in your face, that it became as common place as cigarette butts on the ground and pizza flyers in your mailbox. Was anything ever done? Of course, they let them take over the Student's union the year I left. They also wanted to rename the school as James McGill had been a slave owner in the late 1700s (Gasp!).

You have to face history, not change it. Now is not then. Apologise for nothing. Everyone has an ancestor or two at both ends of the food chain. People have to get over themselves.

There's a difference between getting upset over the college being named after someone who owned slaves (Thomas Jefferson, anyone?), vs getting upset over the hanging of a noose. The former is past, and unchangeable. The latter is an implement of murder used within the lifetimes of many of us, and a symbol of current and real racist terrorism and intimidation.

It also doesn't help anything 'storming offices' after someone hangs a noose.

But as it stands, it seems the bigger the rabble rousing here in the states, the more likely you are to get anything done.

sebster wrote:But then I'm one of those guys that likes the idea of university teaching kids to think, not just teaching them a job.

Oh, this 100%.

And if this is the case, then it follows that we should teach young people not to hate each other based on the colour of their skin. And for the people parotting the phrase 'white guilt' - just knock it off, it's not 'white guilt' to be careful not to offend racial minorities. Some people just seem to use that term to excuse their frankly questionable views.

Albatross wrote:

sebster wrote:But then I'm one of those guys that likes the idea of university teaching kids to think, not just teaching them a job.

Oh, this 100%.

And if this is the case, then it follows that we should teach young people not to hate each other based on the colour of their skin. And for the people parotting the phrase 'white guilt' - just knock it off, it's not 'white guilt' to be careful not to offend racial minorities. Some people just seem to use that term to excuse their frankly questionable views.

Actually I find that some people take not offending minorities to such a patronizing level that it is, in it's own elitist way, racist.

Mannahnin wrote:There's a difference between getting upset over the college being named after someone who owned slaves (Thomas Jefferson, anyone?), vs getting upset over the hanging of a noose. The former is past, and unchangeable. The latter is an implement of murder used within the lifetimes of many of us, and a symbol of current and real racist terrorism and intimidation.

I thought the graffiti slogans of "Cut it out, or Cut it off!" , being the only example I can remember as it was ages ago, could be taken on par as a visual display of a noose. These slogans were everywhere: walls, steps, stickers on stop signs. To me the slogans are on the same level as "[INSERT NAME OF GROUP] out!" or "Death to [INSERT GROUP THIRD PERSON PLURAL PERSONAL PRONOUN]!" It's intimidating for anyone to see any kind of visual display that makes them feel the target of any kind of hate. I think the hanging of the noose is terrible, don't get me wrong and it is extreme. But this gak is everywhere. It is the symbolism that gets the message across, whether a noose or hate filled slogans. You're right there is a HUGE differece between renaming a school and the hanging of the noose. In my original post, I was trying to show how University groups which are drawn to action usually shoot themselves in the foot by making ridiculous demands when the have legitimate grievences. The students have a more than legitimate grievence about the hanging of a noose in the library. They are right to demand justice. But changes in the curriculum? With the Chancellor? They'll have to take that gak up with the state. In addition, all I know of this story is what was posted in a gaming Off-topic forum. I'm sure there is a lot more to be known by all.

Or perhaps, someone was just trying to top themselves, and thought better of it at an inopportune time?

Still, I find claims of racism hard to swallow whilst some try to distinguish themselves from the body of mankind by, well race.

We're all human beings. Deal with it. Being black, white, red, purple, yellow, yes even beige ultimaely makes you not one iota different from me. We can share blood via transplant. Despite having differing levels of melanin in our skin, if you need a kidney, one of mine would do.

Both extreme sides in this debacle need to STFU and grow up.

Monster Rain wrote:Actually I find that some people take not offending minorities to such a patronizing level that it is, in it's own elitist way, racist.

I will enjoy your explanation as to how that is elitist. And how you can patronise someone without offending them.

Also, if you wouldn't mind, please provide examples of people being racist by not offending a member of an ethnic minority.

There are two different kinds of racisim at work here. The first is overt, The noose is a direct threat, "We will kill you" I don't fear so much for myself, but what about my Wife (who is white) or my mixed kid? Now I may fear seeing my child swing from the old courthouse tree. The only kind of fear most Black people feel about a noose is somthing of the dread off terrorist some people feel on a plane.

The Other is Covert racisim Like the crappy black comedians of the early 90's whose only puch line is "White people do things stiff and uncool, black people do things cool" It just leads to sterotypes and generalizations. And you end up trying to avoid doing those things lest the Majority you try to intergrate with frown down on you.

Besides it's 2010 can't a brother go to school without a Noose being strung, or people taking a dump on his culture, or calling him names?

Besides it's 2010 can't a brother go to school without a Noose being strung, or people taking a dump on his culture, or calling him names?

Exactly.