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Shas'O Dorian wrote:Horus, Mortally wounded the emprah and all . . . You can't ignore his chaos powers any more than you could ignore Sangs wings.

Just Dave wrote:Basically, weapons included (not to the extent where they shift the balance too much) and pre-heresy/daemon primarchs.

Sangs wings were PRE-heresy, Horus's Chaos powers were not. So, yes you can. The OP said so

I agree with many of the suggestions, I'd say on people's points so far:

- Angron - although my bro' also suggested him - is almost certainly the most experienced Primarch in CC, however I imagine him neglecting technical ability due to his rage/anger, I'm not saying he's unskilled or anything, but I imagine his anger would cost him. Personally, but yeah, I still won't count him out per-say, but I think he's a double-edged sword(axe(s))...

- Fulgrim - I can't deny that the daemon weapon did have an effect on him, however I'm not sure at the point of defeating Ferrus (other than the killstroke) an avatar and wraithlord he was physically influenced by the sword, I mean, surely if he was he wouldn't have been able to let go of it (threw in air) when he defeated the avatar, whereas he couldn't later IIRC. I still wouldn't rule him out... and he did defeated ferrus using a non-daemonically possessed hammer... But yeah, rule out the Gulliman kill...

- Sanguinus - I also believe he could be capable of it, he defeated a greater daemon (lets not mention his legs eh?), had wings (mobility, as mentioned) and his legion was specialised in assault so I think it could well be him.

- Horus - He was also definately capable in CC, but it wouldnt be his speciality and when he defeated sanguinus he was chaos-ficated (I did A2 English, Ill make up words! ), he would be very good, no doubt, but I suspect others were better.

- Leman Russ - Like Laughter I remember hearing that Leman Russ lost to no-one but the Emperor and he would've been VERY good atleast, best? I suspect so but I'll admit being biased...

- Magnus - Stargate, i did at the top say ruling out psychic powers, even so he got beaten by Russ...

But yeah, i think this debate will go on, hopefully so, I think it's an interesting question tbh and Im impressed by people staying reasonable so far...

Russ, who the Emperor made to take out other Primarchs, would beat any of the others in one-on-one close combat. There is no question.

For the record, I don't think Sanguinius could have beaten Horus no matter what. The idea that he was trying to talk Horus down and so wasn't fighting to his fullest is a noble thought that suits Sanguinius's reputation but I doubt that the Angel really believed there was any chance of that by the time he was on the bridge of the battlebarge.

In a fistfight, no weapons, with armour, Ferrus, no contest, it was just Fulgrim's HAXX deamon sword that won, and he basically spent hie entire life trying to work out and purge any preceved weakness. Plus he has C'tan hands

With weapons, I would have to say Russ, the aforementioned Primarch-sized failsafe attack dog labled "pull in case of heresy." As this is pre-heresy, I refuse to count Fulgim's sword.

Firstly, Sanguinus was mentioned to be the greatest swordsman by many. I'd like to admit that if it weren't for him trying to talk Horus into stopping, he may've been able to live until the Emperor showed up and neither would be dead/half-dead. Horus himself even said Sanguinus was a beast to behold on the battlefield and he was more powerful than the Chaos-Lover.

This aside, I'd have to say the best bet would be Leman Russ. There WAS A REASON he was sent inadvertenly to Prospero to bring in Magnus. He was the primarch slayer in original fluff and was believed to be the most ruthless in combat, not insane like Anngron.

Im going to say that Fulgrim and Alpharius are the two biggest contenders.
Fulgrim because in the book he help the sword up to distract the avatar and hen beat him to death WITH HIS BARE HANDS!!! the Alpharius because he is so good at picking apart an enemys weaknesses before the know whats going on.(that how he killed Gulliman.)
so thats my argument.

My favorite Primarch is the best one and I dont read opening post!

^ lots of people in this thread.

All primarchs are deadly demi gods.

So lets look at what we have here.

Lemon Russ son of Mary sue can look at a planet and it explodes. Also extremely popular with the neckbeards. So hes in.

Horus is the favorite but never bet on a favorite so hes out.

Sanguigunius is really popular is an angel and has a new codex. So hes in.

Dorn, rowboat gilly, KHAN, Vulkan, Ferrus Manus, Alpharius, Omegeon, Perturbo, Fulgrim all the other no hope average primarchs go here.

Leaving Angron., The only primarch who will likely never get a HH book. The one who is awesome without being the protagonist (lemon russ just wait for dans book the we'll get heaps of threads about him being the best soon). The Primarch who spent almost all of his early years as a freaking gladiator in CC without guns, whose implants were to make him better at close combat not worse.

The facts are clear Pre heresy Angron is the most deadly at close combat. He spent his early years doing CC, was modified with dark age technology to be better at it. Leman Russ (canis helix you say.. unfortunately in being a bezerker angron is better, Russ is a pretend savage anyways) and Sangy cannot claim any advantages other then just being primarchs they did not spend all their time fighting in CC..

Angron wins.

Stop toting your favorite. (Alpahrius and the Night haunter are my favorites)

@Shaman: I made the avatar you're using! lol

Shaman wrote:

Lemon Russ son of Mary sue can look at a planet and it explodes. Also extremely popular with the neckbeards. So hes in.

Russ is a pretend savage anyways) and Sangy cannot claim any advantages other then just being primarchs they did not spend all their time fighting in CC..

Angron wins.

Except Leman Russ fought to survive. Not in the same way Anngron had to in order not to die a gruesome death in the arena, but to actually go on living and not starve from no fishing grounds or proper places to live.

FENRIS! The almighty death planet of survival. Sorry, but I still say the axe-wielding bastard of a primarch has a good chance against Anngron. Angryon had a serious berserker craze to him and used little style, which is said in a lot of stories about him. Kharn was able to see flaws in his fighting style when he just went down to speak to him. Russ, on the other hand, did have style and was clear-headed enough to use it.

I think somewhere i read that Sanguinius was equal to Horus during the Siege of Terra, despite all of Horus's gifts from the chaos gods but Sanguinius was too tired from all the fighting.

Manchu wrote:@Shaman: I made the avatar you're using! lol

Really

Thats awesome.

Im as pleased as this man to bear your mark honored lord.

Horus has been refered to the Emperor's "clone brother" in the fluff so I'm going to have to go with him even without psychic powers.

StarGate wrote:Its Mangus... He can turn your mind to pudding and then come over and put a boot in ur @$$..... Dont mess why pyskers... May be whimpy on the outside but inside there going too Mind&^&%( you....

Wimpy on the outside? The dude was a giant! He'd spend more time scraping the wafer-thin remains of the other primarchs off his boot soles than he would squishing them.

If you read the new thousand sons book you'll find magnus size seems to be able to change due to his psychic powers. So no.

@ lorgar's blessed its not a contest to who can start a campfire first, survival isnt cc.

Angron.

Vlad Von Carstien wrote: the Alpharius because he is so good at picking apart an enemys weaknesses before the know whats going on.(that how he killed Gulliman.)
so thats my argument.

Actually, Alpharius was (arguably) killed by gulliman and lost that fight because he incorrectly percieved weakness, it was Fulgrim that beat-up Rowboat...

Well I think it's been pretty much narrowed down to, in order of popularity, Angron, Russ, Sanguinus and Fulgrim IMHO, which I agree with, however, bias as it may be, I still dont think Angron would be the best 1v1, I feel Russ had it...

As I said, I think Angrons simple rage (his enhancements made him more bloodthirsty and stronger IIRC) would hamper his technical ability, whereas I feel Russ has the balance between brute force, cunning and ability. As I said, although he's one of my favourite's, I still think Russ would have it, people have made good points for both Russ and Angron, but I still feel Russ would have it...

And as has been said, if unarmed then Ferrus would almost certainly get it due to having shiney hands...

Just Dave wrote:


As I said, I think Angrons simple rage (his enhancements made him more bloodthirsty and stronger IIRC) would hamper his technical ability, whereas I feel Russ has the balance between brute force, cunning and ability. As I said, although he's one of my favourite's, I still think Russ would have it, people have made good points for both Russ and Angron, but I still feel Russ would have it...

And as has been said, if unarmed then Ferrus would almost certainly get it due to having shiney hands...

As someone who has fought with an axe before. . . technique really doesn't matter that much. An axe is kind of halfway between a sword and a mace, you basically just hit things with the edge until they stop twitching. With a sword, technique is VERY important, not so much with an axe.

So basically, I would vote Angron just because being stronger is more important than being technically proficient with his chosen weapon. And in a strength contest, Angron wins. If Leman Russ and Angron had butted heads, Angron would have won just because he would swing his weapon faster/harder, which is what you need when you're fighting with large weapons.

Give Angron a stiletto and he'd be screwed. With Gorefather in his hands, I wouldn't care to bet on anyone to beat him.

Why has no-one mentioned Mortarion yet? You could beat on that dude all MONTH and he'd still have the durability to gore you on his scythe.

L. Wrex

Angron would win i think. He used to be a gladiator did he not? So surely fighting one on one is what hes going to be best at.

Fighting humans/humanoids is different from fighting Primarchs and with a primarch in the Arena i doubt the people of the planet that he lived on found it amusing to put him against one opponent. Angron also never killed anything as awesome as a wraithlord, bloodthirster, avatar, or primarch...

Fair point haha.

I'm not sure on the precise time period here, but if it includes the whole heresy then the final incarnation of Horus wins, hands down. He crippled the Emperor.

For comparison, Russ lost to the Emperor without effort, while Angron's attacks saw him sent to his legion for essentially chillaxe lessons. Horus' final version, blessed by all 4 gods, was the galaxy's waking nightmare, the incarnation of the Warp's contempt for the Materium. No fouler foe has ever existed.

The new thousand sons Horus Heresy Book is out?!?!

And on topic:

I think Dorn has a chance, he has been described as being like a 'yellow streak of lightning' and he's yellow! YELLOW!

Yellow is such a funny word....

Mortarion was tough pre-heresy, but I doubt he was that much more durable then the other primarchs, I mean, how much tougher can a primarch get?!

Russ used Mjalnar, which was a sword and not an axe. so the arguement that Angry-ron would win becuase they both used large simple weapons is a bit flawed.

Armed, I would say that Sangy actually has the advantage of being the best swordsman, the only reason Horus killed him was because of the blessings of all the chaos gods, (whom which would not count, because then its actually 1v5)

After the sparkly-vampire I would say Russ is a close second. Angron may have spent his early life as a pit fighter, but who was he fighting? normal people? pphhhht, sorry, he is angry and more than a bit psychologically messed up, but he was not the best in close-combat.


Unarmed would be a fight between Ferrus and Russ, but I think Russ would still win out of sheer awesomeness and fanboy-ism.

lol if you count Alpharious-Omegon he would definitely have an advantage over anyone other than Horus during the Heresy

Just Dave wrote:

Vlad Von Carstien wrote: the Alpharius because he is so good at picking apart an enemys weaknesses before the know whats going on.(that how he killed Gulliman.)
so thats my argument.

Actually, Alpharius was (arguably) killed by gulliman and lost that fight because he incorrectly percieved weakness, it was Fulgrim that beat-up Rowboat...

Why does everyone remember this part, but conveniently forget to mention that the Ultramarines themselves have no record of this ever taking place, and the whole thing was probably a fake, as the Inquisitor 'reporting' it was eventually revealed to be an agent of... the Alpha Legion?

Anyway...

If it came down to Angron v. Russ, Russ would triumph. They both rage no doubt but Russ has a great advantage seemingly shared by no other Primarch--a sense of humor or, more particularly, a sense of irony. This is an edge because it lets Russ be sincerely self-critical. Russ may have many flaws but overweening hubris is not one of them. That cannot be said for any other Primarch. I know I will draw the objection of Sanguinius's nobility but I would assert that there is a strong element of overconfidence in his confrontation of Horus. Horus comes off in this thread as primarily a strategic genius rather than an excellent fighter, which I think is absolutely false. He may not have been as mighty a melee combatant as Angron, Sanguinius, or Russ but I doubt he would ever allow himself to engage any enemy at his own disadvantage.

hmm well now that I'm a little more educated thanks to the thread I would say Fulgrim Russ sanguinius and Angron are the top contenders.
But if psychic powers were in I would say Magnus and mortarain would be real contenders too.

Did Mortarion have psychic powers before the heresy?

Poor ferrus mannus. Overall my fav primarch. Id say Alpharius likely has a running chance of being one of the toughest though.

Let's see, I think I'll give every primarch a "win" in a differn't catagory.

With prep time, night haunted,

HtH, Ferrus.

Armed, Sanguinis.

Against a buhmillion mooks, Angron.

Fifty miles away from each other, at night, naked, with only knives, Corax(?)

Tag team, Alpharius Omegon beats Horus Abbadon anyday.

Invigorating theological debate, Lorgar =P.

"Mercy" Mortarion.

Extreme essay writing, Rowboat.

In a duel, Fulgrim.

Inside a fortification, Dorn.

Outside a fortification, Petereubo.

In a build a better moustrap compitition, on fire, Vulkan.

With pets, Russ.

In a chess match, Magnus.

Overall, Horus.

There? Is everone happy with a consseion?