Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

n0t_u wrote:

Not really. Chaplans are usually black, right? Tech Marines are usually red, right? Blue like that is usually the colour used for the Librarians. So you'll see stuff like the Salamander's Librarian in the SM codex where he's painted like an Ultramarine, but has some green on him in places to show that he is from the Salamanders Chapter.

Well I did call it as a librarian. Librarians aren't just blue but also have gold + yellow highlights. Does that sound like any army we know? My point with the visual was a side-by-side of the two most common blood ravens units (troopers + libarians/psykers) which pair up perfectly with the pre-heresy 1ksons and post heresy 1ksons. It wasn't the basis of my entire argument for them being 1ksons successors, but it is another thing to be considered.

Yup, also to support my theory, Tsons units currently have one sorcerer and rubric/former non-psychic marines. BR fluff indicates they also very commonly use a libby in a squad due to the extremely high numbers. Not to mention fielding squads of all librarians. That last one is from lexicanum 40k wiki, so I'm not sure the source so bigger grain of salt than the rest.

I played Chaos Rising this weekend, pretty cool if a little samey. DOWII is an awesome engine and a ballsy move to a new dynamic, but I still prefer DOWI overall.

SCII plays pretty much exactly as the original for all intents and purposes, but I didnt play the original in multiplayer, just campaign so it is pretty fun for me. I can see how it would be stale for a vet though.

Back on topic, it would be great for GW to actually do something with a story instead of leaving it as the status quo for 20 years, or better yet retconning the whole she-bang and dumbing it down lol!

im not sure either way but i found big decisions like this GW usually doesnt touch and rather lets each person deside for themselves.

i always thought of it as the blood ravens are the loyalist remains from the thousand sons and the rubric of arihman or whatever destroyed that part of their memory. The Imperium being what it is they're fighting so constantly that its just left a big hole in their records and to much war to find out

The DoW games ( imo the best sources of fluff for that chapter which conveniently allows us to ignore Goto's drivel) have yet to show a convincing hint that the Bloodravens are Thousand Sons successors. Though, their somewhat odd relationship with the Black Legion is proven.

Halsfield wrote:Lexicanum supports this as well with the entry: "The Blood Ravens are decended from the Thousand Sons one clear indication of this is found in Dawn of War Tempest when the sorcerer Ahriman says "Remember this, Rhamah, Son of Ahriman".

When he calls him Son of Ahriman its because that Librarian joins Ahriman's Super Special Psyker squad called the Sons of Ahriman, which only exists in the Goto books.

Soladrin wrote:No, because I refuse to see the Blood Ravens as a canon Chapter, thanks to your's truly, C.S. Goto.

Too bad their existence is supported in Codex Space Marines 4th Ed and 5th ed, plus numerous WD articles.

I don't see the hate for the chapter nor the refusal to see the games as canon. They have the GW logo slapped on them. The only things with that on them that I refute are the Goto books, any of them.

The problem with the Blood Ravens is the same as that with the 2nd and 11th Legions. They don't know their primarch or history so people have to invent them. And then the arguments start.

Personally I have no major qualms with the Dawn of War books (apart from the fact they should have stuck to the game events more, like actually getting to the END of Dawn of War II instead of finishing halfway through....)

The idea of them being descended from the Thousand Sons is intriguing, but if the Exorcists didn't know they were related to the Grey Knights would people say the same about them??

I have not read the original Dawn of War trilogy but I did start reading the DOW 2 novel last night and after reading through this post some things jumped out to support the 1k sons theory. First of all, in the first chapter the Blood Ravens are on the planet Prosperon to retrieve a ancient relic before the tyranids consume everything. (For those who read it, why was the Carnifex just standing in a trance while in front of the temple that housed the artifact?) Then in the next chapter they mention that the Blood Ravens have an unusual number of Librarians in their chapter.

I know, nothing earth shattering but I thought it was a nice little nod to the theory.

grubnards wrote:I have not read the original Dawn of War trilogy but I did start reading the DOW 2 novel last night and after reading through this post some things jumped out to support the 1k sons theory. First of all, in the first chapter the Blood Ravens are on the planet Prosperon to retrieve a ancient relic before the tyranids consume everything. (For those who read it, why was the Carnifex just standing in a trance while in front of the temple that housed the artifact?) Then in the next chapter they mention that the Blood Ravens have an unusual number of Librarians in their chapter.

I know, nothing earth shattering but I thought it was a nice little nod to the theory.

DON'T read DoW trilogy... You'll thank me for the warning and you'll beg you'd listened if you do read it.

Seriously, BAAAAD books.

What is all this hatred for the DoW series?

Some of the other books in the Warhammer 40000 range haven't been brilliant (I'm looking at you Legion) but none come in for the scorn these are getting.

The guy had a tough job, getting books out of computer games where players make their own stories and decisions.

It's always the problem where you have "the book of the film" or "the book of the game". The author has to make his own version while staying true to the film/game's representation.

So please just move on.

Corennus wrote:What is all this hatred for the DoW series?

Some of the other books in the Warhammer 40000 range haven't been brilliant (I'm looking at you Legion) but none come in for the scorn these are getting.

The guy had a tough job, getting books out of computer games where players make their own stories and decisions.

It's always the problem where you have "the book of the film" or "the book of the game". The author has to make his own version while staying true to the film/game's representation.

So please just move on.

I havn't read it personally, but apparantly Land Raiders can transform into Razobacks with multilasers while Gabriel Angelos surfs on top.

That's pretty terrible.

not unless Goto's writing them.

MULTILASERS!

multilasers.......i'm sure he means either a twin-linked lascannon or a superlaser gatling gun

Corennus wrote:What is all this hatred for the DoW series?

Some of the other books in the Warhammer 40000 range haven't been brilliant (I'm looking at you Legion) but none come in for the scorn these are getting.

The guy had a tough job, getting books out of computer games where players make their own stories and decisions.

It's always the problem where you have "the book of the film" or "the book of the game". The author has to make his own version while staying true to the film/game's representation.

So please just move on.

The first game you didn't get to create your own story, your were following a set path. Goto in the books wrecked a lot of the stuff established by the first game, and was exceptionably horrible about what he did to the first expansion, Winter Assault. He changed the Ultramarines in the game to being Alpha Legion in disguise, he made Taldeer a member of Beil-Tann, then he killed her in one of the books that took place before Dark Crusade. What else is there? Oh the Psyker Chaplains, Arhiman but he's mentioned with out any Thousand Sons. Multi-Laz marines. Tank surfing, not riding on top of, but surfing.

WGXH wrote:

Corennus wrote:What is all this hatred for the DoW series?

Some of the other books in the Warhammer 40000 range haven't been brilliant (I'm looking at you Legion) but none come in for the scorn these are getting.

The guy had a tough job, getting books out of computer games where players make their own stories and decisions.

It's always the problem where you have "the book of the film" or "the book of the game". The author has to make his own version while staying true to the film/game's representation.

So please just move on.

I havn't read it personally, but apparantly Land Raiders can transform into Razobacks with multilasers while Gabriel Angelos surfs on top.

That's pretty terrible.

I recall Uriel Ventris doing something similar on a rhino and unless you've read the books yourself then your opinion is only that of someone else's.

all is dust

and yet...



This, given the apparant name drop of the Blood Ravens in the new BA Dex...

I thought Legion was quite good.

The only terrible Horus Heresy book so far has been Mechanicum, which made me want to blind myself incase I ever read anything as bad again.

so now the blood ravens are descendants of blood angels AND thousand sons?

i'm confused, run that by me again....

It could be either.

I like the idea of them being decendants of thousand sons the best and it seems to fit pretty wel but thats just what i think

WGXH wrote:and yet...



This, given the apparant name drop of the Blood Ravens in the new BA Dex...

The bigger mystery is what that game is. Seriously, I have never seen that before.

it's DoW 2, chaos rising...
unless you knew that already and are just being sarcastic...

could they possibly be from both? just wondering...

That item was just a complete random drop from the first campaign. Nobody would even think to check the text on it before throwing it aside.

Unless they were bored out of their minds, as I was.

A mix of both then maybe? Just what the imperium needs bloodthirsty psychotic master psykers

Sounds like a great mix to me.

Just as a side note, are the DoW games any good?

blazinpsycho&typhooni wrote:Just as a side note, are the DoW games any good?

That's like asking if the sky is blue.

blazinpsycho&typhooni wrote:
Just as a side note, are the DoW games any good?

That's like asking if the sky is blue.

so is that a yes or no?

blazinpsycho&typhooni wrote:

blazinpsycho&typhooni wrote:
Just as a side note, are the DoW games any good?

That's like asking if the sky is blue.

so is that a yes or no?

That's also like asking if the sky is blue. It's one of the best games out there.