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FlingitNow wrote:Lets go points for points 20 Guardsmen with first ranmk fire second rank fire against 10 Tau. FWs go first as they have longer range we'll assume both units are in cover:

There is little is proven by straight comparison of the two units. Unless armies of pure fire warriors were regularly taken and pitted against armies of naked guardsmen, then it's all a lot more complicated than that.

But I do agree that Firewarriors could come down in points, or be given access to greater tricks - more markerlights and more effective markerlights would probably go a long way.

I really don't think that we'll see Crisis/BSides in a FW unit.

I would say:
Fire Warrior Squad - 50 points
Shas'la - 2 3 3 3 1 2 1 7 4+
Shas'ui - 2 3 3 3 1 2 2 8 4+

Composition:
5 Shas'la and 1 Shas'ui

Wargear:
Pulse Rifle
Photon Grenades
Bonding Knife (Shas'ui only)
Pulse Pistol (Shas'ui only)

Options:
Up to 6 more Shas'la may be added for 8 points each.

Any Fire Warrior may replace their Pulse Rifle with a Pulse Carbine for no extra cost.

The entire squad may take EMP grenades for 20 points.

May take a Devilfish as a dedicated transport for X points.

The Shas'ui may take any of the following, at the cost listed:
*Inbuilt Networked Markerlight (may fire in addition to his normal weapon) - 10
*Targetting Array (+1BS) - 5
*EMP grenades - 3
*Target Lock - 5
*Drone Controller - Free - Must take 1-2 of the following:
***Gun Drone - X
***Shield Drone - X
***Marker Drone - X
***Medical Assaistance Drone (gives FNP to squad) - 40
***Heavy Gun Drone (as Forge World) - X

Black Antelope min squad size for Tau is 6 tey are a 6-12 army so should stay that way.

You've given then photon grenades but no way to get rid of them? That would completely screw the unit over why force them to take a peice of wargear that weakens them so greatly?

Oh and squad leaders are Shas'ui not Shas'vre.

Consider the squad size and leader name corrected.

Why are defensive grenades BAD?

Flingit doesn't like his firewarriors to live once assaulted and defensive grenades negate the +1 attack from assault so betters the chances of an assaulted FW squad's survival.

Me? I'm all for the tarpit. I don't leave units unsupported so if one unit is assaulted, I walk the supporting unit backwards a bit, fire at something else if I'm able, and wait for the tarpit to die before rapid firing the assaulters.

Squad Markerlight Drone: 32pts
One per squad.

It would be BS2 or BS3, must shoot at the same target as the rest of the squad.

When successful, all shots from the squad are:
+1BS (if drone is BS2)
-1 or -2 to all Cover Saves
Ridiculous Amount of Fire Power (RAFP): May only be used if the unit did not Move in their Movement Phase. The unit being fired upon (whether wounds are inflicted or not) add the number of Wounds of all the models and subtract the number of shots made (so if 10 models fire once, 10, if 10 models fire twice, 20) to a minimum 7. Then roll 2D6, if the combined result is greater than the previous result, then the unit may not Move in the following Movement phase, but may Shoot and Assault as normal (so they may Run).

Example: Ten Space Marines receive 20 shots. Their cumulative Wounds add to 10, subtract the number of shots, 20. The result is less than 7, so use seven. The Space Marine player rolls 2D6 and scores a 8. The Space Marine player may not move in their Movement Phase, but may Shoot and Assault as normal.

agnosto wrote:My idea was more a troop choice while yours seems more like an elite with them being a 'vre squad.

Shas'vre merely translates from Tau to "Fire Caste Hero" and Shas'el to "Fire caste Knight"

While Shazoooie would be a more DIRECT translation to Firewarrior veteran (as 'Ui means Veteran in "Firecastian") I went with Vre as they are heroes of the Tau Empire but as the Tau Empire follows its strict rules, they have not yet served long enough to be given the honors of a XV8/88 Battle-suit, and they were not trained to use XV2 suits, thus the lack of stealth-suits in my example.

That being said, what I listed would be a troops choice in the same sense that Veteran Guardsmen are considered troops. The are just about to become Elites/Heavy support/HQs but a majority of the squad just isnt there yet.

I did forget to add the option of Rail Rifles. Ill be adding that in a moment. I also intend on showing this to our Tau player and letting him play test this unit, my only "second thoughts" would be that the Firewarrior Shas'vre would not count towards the 1+ Firewarrior requirement and the squad itself would probably be a 0-1 (possibly 0-2) availability. If anyones interested I will probably make a thread about how it worked out in a few months of testing. (I also intend on having the dude test out the Kauyon/Mont'Ka rules)

On that Shas'vre: Definitely a Tau Elites choice. Or at very least a 0-1 Troops choice. Even by the description of them, they would be relatively rare, being neither normal Firewarriors nor Crisis/Stealth Suit pilots. As for mixing the unit with Suits, that seems awkward and ungainly. Tactically your squad would become limited. You are neither infantry nor light vehicle. Your infantry is hindered by the ungainly size of the suits and your suits are hindered by the light service of your infantry. And in general I think this is just a round about way of getting the same unit with BS4 and additional gear. Pointed correctly, no-one will take Firewarriors with a unit like this as the same unit option.

If it is a Troop (even 0-1) it will always be taken. If it is Elites, the minimum number of FW troops will be taken and as many of these taken instead (I can already see the half dozen threads Captain Solon would make to trade Troops, Fast Attack, and Heavy Support, and even a the extra HQ so Tau can take more of these Shas'vre). Putting them in Elites would at least force players to make decisions; do I want Shas'vre or do I want X instead? But I think a 0-1 limit is a bare minimum both ways.

~

I will have our tau guy play test them at 0-1 and 0-2. Tested as troops. The suit limits the ability to take a transport, its also very expensive (as is the squad, you are spending 50% more the typical model cost for +1 BS +1LD optional weapons.) If 0-1 makes them too useless, then 0-2 will be tried, if 0-2 is overpowered, then 0-1 will be reassessed. Either way you still require at least 1 normal firewarrior squad as per normal Tau rules.

We will see if its good/bad/an interesting addition. I'll give a full report.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I will have our tau guy play test them at 0-1 and 0-2. Tested as troops. The suit limits the ability to take a transport, its also very expensive (as is the squad, you are spending 50% more the typical model cost for +1 BS +1LD optional weapons.) If 0-1 makes them too useless, then 0-2 will be tried, if 0-2 is overpowered, then 0-1 will be reassessed. Either way you still require at least 1 normal firewarrior squad as per normal Tau rules.

We will see if its good/bad/an interesting addition. I'll give a full report.

Throw in a little sept diversity in regards to FW.

Farsight Enclave: Farsight FW can be upgrade to veterans at a cost of 2 pts per model. Veteran Farsight FWs get +1 to WS. They can also purchase close combat weapons at an additional X points per model.

Vior'la: Vior'la FW can be upgraded can be upgraded to veterans at a cost 2 pts per model. Veteran Vior'la FWs get +1 to BS.

Sa'cea: Sa'cea FW can gain furious charge for an extra X pts. per squad.

Just throwing that in there...

Skinnattittar wrote:Squad Markerlight Drone: 32pts
One per squad.

It would be BS2 or BS3, must shoot at the same target as the rest of the squad.

When successful, all shots from the squad are:
+1BS (if drone is BS2)
-1 or -2 to all Cover Saves
Ridiculous Amount of Fire Power (RAFP): May only be used if the unit did not Move in their Movement Phase. The unit being fired upon (whether wounds are inflicted or not) add the number of Wounds of all the models and subtract the number of shots made (so if 10 models fire once, 10, if 10 models fire twice, 20) to a minimum 7. Then roll 2D6, if the combined result is greater than the previous result, then the unit may not Move in the following Movement phase, but may Shoot and Assault as normal (so they may Run).

Example: Ten Space Marines receive 20 shots. Their cumulative Wounds add to 10, subtract the number of shots, 20. The result is less than 7, so use seven. The Space Marine player rolls 2D6 and scores a 8. The Space Marine player may not move in their Movement Phase, but may Shoot and Assault as normal.

I thought you left the thread?

On the RAFP, nice concept but I think it's a bit busy for a one item upgrade and the RAFP won't appeal to the 12 year olds that GW caters to because it requires them to think and count (no offense to any 12yos in the audience). Possibly instead of RAFP allow the successful marker drone to allow rapid fire to maximum range for that turn or weapons get pinning that turn, even to units that are normally immune to pinning (since many are).

I agree that a veteran unit sounds like an elite or limited troop choice (0-1) but the elite choices we currently have are sparse, what type of suit do you want?

@tiberius,
sept specific rules would be cool, maybe have them linked to specific HQ choices like the marines and other armies; however, close combat rules are a waste on FWs because....well, they suck in close combat, so much so to the point where those USRs or equipment would be a waste.

I would like to see a Kroot special character; now that would be cool.

agnosto wrote:

Skinnattittar wrote:Squad Markerlight Drone: 32pts
One per squad.

It would be BS2 or BS3, must shoot at the same target as the rest of the squad.

When successful, all shots from the squad are:
+1BS (if drone is BS2)
-1 or -2 to all Cover Saves
Ridiculous Amount of Fire Power (RAFP): May only be used if the unit did not Move in their Movement Phase. The unit being fired upon (whether wounds are inflicted or not) add the number of Wounds of all the models and subtract the number of shots made (so if 10 models fire once, 10, if 10 models fire twice, 20) to a minimum 7. Then roll 2D6, if the combined result is greater than the previous result, then the unit may not Move in the following Movement phase, but may Shoot and Assault as normal (so they may Run).

Example: Ten Space Marines receive 20 shots. Their cumulative Wounds add to 10, subtract the number of shots, 20. The result is less than 7, so use seven. The Space Marine player rolls 2D6 and scores a 8. The Space Marine player may not move in their Movement Phase, but may Shoot and Assault as normal.

I thought you left the thread?

On the RAFP, nice concept but I think it's a bit busy for a one item upgrade and the RAFP won't appeal to the 12 year olds that GW caters to because it requires them to think and count (no offense to any 12yos in the audience). Possibly instead of RAFP allow the successful marker drone to allow rapid fire to maximum range for that turn or weapons get pinning that turn, even to units that are normally immune to pinning (since many are).

I was struck by inspiration.

I decided that Pinning, in general, was a poor choice (in all seriousness, a single guy with a rifle on a battle field full of death and woe, bombs, bullets, and all other manner of fire, that single shot, to the head or otherwise, would probably go completely unnoticed the majority of the time), basically because I didn't want a last standing Firewarrior with a drone to be able to freeze a hypothetical mob of one million Fearless monsters of whom-ever (Space Marines, Orks, Dark Eldar, etc...), like so many broken rules GW has. So I invented a rather simple rule in practice.

Basically;
(Sum of Wounds of Victim Unit) - (Number of Shots from Attacking Unit) = N

Roll 2D6, if 2D6 > N, unit may not move (volume of fire it too great). If 2D6 </= nothing happens, the unit is not pressured by the volume of fire. The minimum of 7 could be replaced with the unit's LD instead.

Fluff reasoning? coordinates the unit to fire a seemingly endless stream of firepower on a unit, either via a "talking guns" effect, or just a well organized barrage. It would be specific to Pulse Rifles due to the number of fire points a squad of Firewarriors creates.>

Flingit doesn't like his firewarriors to live once assaulted and defensive grenades negate the +1 attack from assault so betters the chances of an assaulted FW squad's survival.

Me? I'm all for the tarpit. I don't leave units unsupported so if one unit is assaulted, I walk the supporting unit backwards a bit, fire at something else if I'm able, and wait for the tarpit to die before rapid firing the assaulters.

Not that I want my FWs dead but I want to shoot at the assaulters. 12 FWs even with defensive grenades aren't going to tarpit anything and aren't going to survive more than 2 rounds of combat. All they'll do is maybe not break in the first round of combat (they'll still break most of the time thankfully) and then definitely break in the 2nd round (if not get totally wiped out after pile-ins) meaning your enemy if free to assault another unit and you've missed you chance you shoot them.

So the defensive grenades will at best do nothing at worse turn your firewarriors into a nice pillow for your enemies assault troops to hug during your shooting phase!!!

If you've ever played Tau you know defensive grenades are the worst thing that could possibly happen to your firewarriors except making them stubborn (yes Aun'Va I'm looking at you)!

As for the Shas'vre squad I don't think it is near OP and I doubt too many Tau players would be interested in eth squad as it stands. BS4 Firewarriors won't win you the game and you'd never take a unit if they were competing with Crisis teams for slots. As is they seem a lot of points for not alot of fire power unless you start mixing weapons in your squad which goes against Tau doctrine. And they have photon grenades too which is reason enough not to take them.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
{quote](Sum of Wounds of Victim Unit) - (Number of Shots from Attacking Unit) = N

No, the number of wounds is the sum of the wounds in the victim unit, not the number of wounds inflicted. So a five model unit of 2 Wound Nobs has 10 Wounds. Three Fire Warriors shoot at it, 3 shots. 10-3=7. In that case, 7 is the solution. However; 10 model unit of Ogryns, which have 3 Wounds each. 3(10)=30 Wounds. Twelve Fire Warriors shoot at the unit. 30-12=18. The large, beefy, and stern Ogryns are unperturbed and ignore the flurry of puny Fire Warrior light thingies. The Guard player will still lose the game, as they took a full squad of Ogryns.

The Guard player will still lose the game, as they took a full squad of Ogryns.

Not if the Tau player took Aun'Va!

Right now I get you when is the caculation made for numbers of wounds before or after the Tau shooting?

Skinnattittar wrote:
Ridiculous Amount of Fire Power (RAFP): May only be used if the unit did not Move in their Movement Phase. The unit being fired upon (whether wounds are inflicted or not) add the number of Wounds of all the models and subtract the number of shots made (so if 10 models fire once, 10, if 10 models fire twice, 20) to a minimum 7. Then roll 2D6, if the combined result is greater than the previous result, then the unit may not Move in the following Movement phase, but may Shoot and Assault as normal (so they may Run).

....

Basically;
(Sum of Wounds of Victim Unit) - (Number of Shots from Attacking Unit) = N

Roll 2D6, if 2D6 > N, unit may not move (volume of fire it too great). If 2D6 </= nothing happens, the unit is not pressured by the volume of fire. The minimum of 7 could be replaced with the unit's LD instead.

Fluff reasoning? coordinates the unit to fire a seemingly endless stream of firepower on a unit, either via a "talking guns" effect, or just a well organized barrage. It would be specific to Pulse Rifles due to the number of fire points a squad of Firewarriors creates.>

So effectively, a squad of 12 firewarriors could permenantly keep an independant character/monsterous creature on its own (as I don't know any with 12+ wounds) stunlocked the entire game?

also

Skinnattittar wrote:
I decided that Pinning, in general, was a poor choice (in all seriousness, a single guy with a rifle on a battle field full of death and woe, bombs, bullets, and all other manner of fire, that single shot, to the head or otherwise, would probably go completely unnoticed the majority of the time)

Tell that to your typical infantry squad being pinned down by a single sniper even in such a confined area as a city street, let alone a wide open desert... Pinning is one of the VERY few rules that parallels a real world scenario. But as far as for this specific ruling is concerned(RAFP) pinning may not be an appropriate rule (Pulse carbines should not have pinning IMO... 'Chewbacca on Endor' logic )

@flingit, I like the discussion you're having regarding defensive grenades in the other thread. I've never taken them and probably never will, myself I was just trying to poke a little gentle fun at you with the "arr all my firewarriors must die!" comment.

Seriously though, and I know someone's mentioned this before; the easiest way to "fix" firewarriors is to make markerlights cheaper then being BS 4 becomes easier to obtain within existing rules.

Yeah I right off my FWs once someone assaults them at that point you just want the combat over in their turn so you can shoot the enemy. If yopu could take units of 30 FWs then you could tarpit but that's not really the Tau way.

If you could get them out of combat (as per the other threads ideas) that would be a serious boon. I think FWs need more core firepower or better range with their core fire power. Hence the ideas around extending he rapidfire range to 15" (and making Crabines assault 2 15").

Making markerlights move and fire would also help by giving you mobile markerlights you'd have more freedom to use them in more places whichout making your line static.

How about markerlights as a vehicle wargear and not just for the skyray anymore? I'm not sure but wouldn't it count as a defensive weapon so you could move and fire it?

@ FlingitNow : No, Ogryns are worse, and at the beginning of the shooting phase or turn of shooting (just like calculating casualties over a phase for Moral tests).

@ DAR : Well, being a soldier, I will have to disagree. If a unit is on patrol and there is only a sniper to deal with, yes, on such a small scale a sniper can pin a unit. But if you're in a battle, a single shot is barely noticed through the shear volume of fire that is occuring. Sniper-Pinning is one of the worst reflected things in 40k. Consider; one million Heavy Bolters firing on a unit of one billion what-evers, the result is just casualties. But if at some point a single sniper takes a shot at that unit.... In reality, with the million Heavy Bolters going off, nobody would effectively notice that single sniper. Even on smaller scales of a few HBs, your not going to go flat for security from the sniper, the HBs will be your bigger concern.

As for the Pulse-Rifles holding single models in stun lock? Yes, if the Character fails what is essentially a Leadership Test at 7 or their own Ld (depending on how it is written). I don't want a Leadership Test because, well, they're useless these days considering that almost everyone has an easy way around them; Space Mariners with "No Fear," Guard with Orders and Commissars, Orks with mobs, Chaos with Fearless, etc.... I have Sniper Rifles in all my squads these days and I'll get lucky to pin one unit a game for a single turn.

Consider if you suddenly find yourself under a massive volley of high-power rounds being flung at you at a constant, organized rate. You might consider finding something to hide behind or drop flat to. I know I would.

Yeah that would also help but we don't want the entire army to be ML toting! They are an essential boon but the army should do other stuff as well.

How about Devilfish becomes fast. Multitrakers count you as having moved 6" less for firing (rather than just fire as fast). For Skyrays and Hammerheads S5 becomes defensive but not for 'fish.

Pathfinders don't take Devilfish but Catfish (I don't think it makes sense for the catfish to have seeker missiles it should be calling them in from elsewhere):

Catfish 80 points
Front 12 Side 11 Rear 10 Bs4

Type: Tank, skimmer, fast

Equipement: Burst cannon, pair of Gun drones and a stealth field generator, Marker beacon, targeting array

Special rules: Infiltrate, Polyglass

Options: Catfish may take:
Multitraker - 10 pts
Disruption Pod - 15 pts
Flechette discharger - 10pts
Blacksun filter - 5pts
Decoy launchers - 5pts
Sensor Spines - 10pts

The catfish may exchange it gune drones for:
2 Burst cannons - Free
Smart Missile system - 10pts

Transports: 10 models.

Fire points: None however due to Polyglass vision slits on vehicle 4 models may fire marker lights out of the vehicle (usual restrictions apply).

Let us not turn this into a "How would you fix Tau" thread. Let's stay on the subject of just improving things closely related to the OP, okay, FlingitNow? We've argued this many a time before: Tau are cool, but they're not Gods. Let's dial it back, okay?

You think the transport is OP? Doesn't really do anything but transport pathfinders and allow them to shoot their MLs (on the other therad I was suggesting dorpping MLs to range 18" but making them assault which would work hand in hand with this vehicle).

Plus Ogryns are far better than Aun'Va. If you could take a squad of Ogryns for free would you?

I wouldn't take Aun'Va if he cost minus 100 points literally. Whilst Orgyns are not points effective they don't damage your army whilst they are alive and don't make your army run away when they die. Aun'Va does both to a Tau army and cost 205 points and won't kill anything all game...

I would prefer a erturn to eth days when leadership had an effect on the game though as Tau are the only army that seem to have to worry about leadership anymore (except Eldar who are Ld9 anyway).

As to the OP as was discussed at great length before I don't think an across the board BS bump is particularly fitting fo rthe Tau. Won't solve their problems and doesn;t really fit in with the fluff.

@ FlingitNow : I never said that explicitly, but I do not want to get into that discussion on this thread. I would love to work on the next Tau Codex, to be honest, even though I do not play Tau nor have I ever seriously played them (though I have played against many Tau armies, seen ever greater Tau battles, and heard Tau aftermath).

If we are to get off-topic, I would have no problem discussing things with you, FlingitNow (FiN). I have bumped heads with you many a time on the forums, and I consider you at very least not unreasonable.

If you just give everything a leadership bump I will be happy...
Seriously a group of Raging Fanatics ready to give their lives for "The Greater Good" are the worst leadership army other than IG(who get Commissars to bump up leadership) I mean seriously Ethereals don't do enough(Especially Aun'Va) Really I dont think Tau Fire Warriors need a BS bump but everything needs a leadership bump.

I consider you at very least not unreasonable.

Shucks you'll make me blush...

But I do think we agree an across the board BS bump isn't really fitting with eth Tau nor really addressing their issues.

Addicted to Bleach wrote:If you just give everything a leadership bump I will be happy...
Seriously a group of Raging Fanatics ready to give their lives for "The Greater Good" are the worst leadership army other than IG(who get Commissars to bump up leadership) I mean seriously Ethereals don't do enough(Especially Aun'Va) Really I dont think Tau Fire Warriors need a BS bump but everything needs a leadership bump.

I don't think a FW leadership bump would be good, it seems most Tau players who play Tau well (ie I don't consistently massacred them) want their FW to break and run in cc if by some miracle they aren't wiped. I know as an Ork player I love to get locked in in cc with Tau for a turn.

I don't think a FW leadership bump would be good, it seems most Tau players who play Tau well (ie I don't consistently massacred them) want their FW to break and run in cc if by some miracle they aren't wiped. I know as an Ork player I love to get locked in in cc with Tau for a turn.

Yeah and this is why we don't want defensive grenades either.

A voluntary re-roll is far better we don't want to berak from shooting damage but man do we want to break from CC!! Something that helps us avoid or run away from combat (even at the risk of being swept) is what we want.

Read the fluff. The Tau are not natural warriors, they are just a stoic race that tries really hard.

That being said BS3 is the achilles heel of the Tau army. The solution is simple, improve pathfinders.

Give pathfinders 2 options for 2 types of tactics

Option #1: No devilfish, but they have infiltrate and stealth universal special rules.

Option #2: They come with a devilfish, and gain the scouts and stealth universal special rules.

Next change the way pathfinders operate.
Keep pathfinders at BS3, and combine 2 models into a heavy weapons team like IG. Have them operate as a marker light and a spotter turning the markerlight into a twin linked markerlight. That will raise the chance of a marker light hitting from 50% to 75%, which is actually better than BS4 (66%) Best of all it's using teamwork instead of individual combat prowess, which fits the theme of the Tau army more than super warriors that have BS4.