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schadenfreude wrote:
Next change the way pathfinders operate.
Keep pathfinders at BS3, and combine 2 models into a heavy weapons team like IG. Have them operate as a marker light and a spotter turning the markerlight into a twin linked markerlight. That will raise the chance of a marker light hitting from 50% to 75%, which is actually better than BS4 (66%) Best of all it's using teamwork instead of individual combat prowess, which fits the theme of the Tau army more than super warriors that have BS4.

That makes PF worse, though, as they go from 50% to hit per model, to 75% per 2 models - a decrease of 14.5% in markerlight hits per models.


(I'd say option 1, and allow them to buy a DF if they want to)

BS 4 will make them overpowered. simply improve markerlights!

schadenfreude wrote:Read the fluff. The Tau are not natural warriors, they are just a stoic race that tries really hard.

That being said BS3 is the achilles heel of the Tau army. The solution is simple, improve pathfinders.

Give pathfinders 2 options for 2 types of tactics

Option #1: No devilfish, but they have infiltrate and stealth universal special rules.

Option #2: They come with a devilfish, and gain the scouts and stealth universal special rules.

Next change the way pathfinders operate.
Keep pathfinders at BS3, and combine 2 models into a heavy weapons team like IG. Have them operate as a marker light and a spotter turning the markerlight into a twin linked markerlight. That will raise the chance of a marker light hitting from 50% to 75%, which is actually better than BS4 (66%) Best of all it's using teamwork instead of individual combat prowess, which fits the theme of the Tau army more than super warriors that have BS4.

I must admit it does work well with the Fluff. All i have to say is that Crisis suits need improved BS, how can a mech manned by a veteran soldier not have better aim than the new guy thats not in a mech suit? -_-

How about a new turret for the skyray that provides the benefit of a targeting array to friendly Tau units within 12"?

Not crazy about the PFs having a heavy team as they're supposed to be ninja-like in their ability to stalk prey; not clumping around carrying tons of gear.

I'm all for more/better markerlights even though it's always irked me a bit that the entire army is dependant upon hitting something on a 4+ with an item that does no damage in and of itself.

Blind wrote:I must admit it does work well with the Fluff. All i have to say is that Crisis suits need improved BS, how can a mech manned by a veteran soldier not have better aim than the new guy thats not in a mech suit? -_-

Can you explain to me how they are better? Being a veteran doesn't necessarily make you a better shot (are Space Marine Veterans BS5? I don't actually remember...), not to mention that a Crisis Suit, I would say, is a totally different beast to foot slogging it. Not to mention that they are constantly hopping about like bunny rabbits. Now, if you nerfed their shoot-and-scoot, then yes, I could see a BS bump. But as they currently are, what they minorly lack in accuracy, they more than make up for with survivability.

Skinnattittar wrote:Can you explain to me how they are better? Being a veteran doesn't necessarily make you a better shot (are Space Marine Veterans BS5? I don't actually remember...), not to mention that a Crisis Suit, I would say, is a totally different beast to foot slogging it. Not to mention that they are constantly hopping about like bunny rabbits. Now, if you nerfed their shoot-and-scoot, then yes, I could see a BS bump. But as they currently are, what they minorly lack in accuracy, they more than make up for with survivability.

Fluffwise? Page 34 in the codex, "They are experienced fighters who have fought the deadliest foes and triumphed. Their loyalty and skill is beyond question..."

I don't know about you but I would expect the best of the best to be better at just about everything than your regular PFC; realworld comparison of Navy Seals or Delta to ground pounding army grunts (not that they don't have their place). Now, take that comparison and then look at their stats; remove the crisis suit and the only bonus they get for being the best of the best is a 1 point leadership bump.

agnosto wrote:

Skinnattittar wrote:Can you explain to me how they are better? Being a veteran doesn't necessarily make you a better shot (are Space Marine Veterans BS5? I don't actually remember...), not to mention that a Crisis Suit, I would say, is a totally different beast to foot slogging it. Not to mention that they are constantly hopping about like bunny rabbits. Now, if you nerfed their shoot-and-scoot, then yes, I could see a BS bump. But as they currently are, what they minorly lack in accuracy, they more than make up for with survivability.

Fluffwise? Page 34 in the codex, "They are experienced fighters who have fought the deadliest foes and triumphed. Their loyalty and skill is beyond question..."

I don't know about you but I would expect the best of the best to be better at just about everything than your regular PFC; realworld comparison of Navy Seals or Delta to ground pounding army grunts (not that they don't have their place). Now, take that comparison and then look at their stats; remove the crisis suit and the only bonus they get for being the best of the best is a 1 point leadership bump.

When did Delta Force become the best shooters in the galaxy? I'm a regular ground pounder and I score very well on the range, and I know some Spec. For. that can't shoot nearly as well as some POGs.

That aside, skill is relative to an attribute. It doesn't say. Now we can assume they are superior in shooting, but enough to make it to BS4? We can try and compare it to Guard Vets, but Guard doesn't have anything like Crisis Suit units in stats or fluff. Sentinels make a close approach, and they are only BS3 (they too, are often described as being elite Guardsmen, though the IG doesn't select Sentinel Crew from the ranks of marching boots).

For one its a suit, last i checked, robotics worked with hydraulics and gears, those can lock in place and take much more abuse than a tender fish arm can. The driver knows how to aim but the suit does it for them. As for hopping around, they can fire while in air as depicted in all pictures regarding them, along side the sensored helmets and small sights placed on guns, I'd imagine that they are robotics assisted in aiming, the only reason they aren't bs4 at the moment ( or was in 4th atleast) is to even the playing field so crisis suit dont totally own, not an issue of driver inexperience....

ooh new thought lol:
Space marines, for the most part are genetically designed, their full potential is basically already known and calculated. Tau are not, and so certain individuals can rise above the rest, skill for Marines is irrelevant as its pre-determined, for Tau, it is not. And to say skill has no bearing is just ridiculous, skill may be just a summation for better understanding or better reflexes but either way its an advantage on others in certain things

Blind wrote:For one its a suit, last i checked, robotics worked with hydraulics and gears, those can lock in place and take much more abuse than a tender fish arm can. The driver knows how to aim but the suit does it for them. As for hopping around, they can fire while in air as depicted in all pictures regarding them, along side the sensored helmets and small sights placed on guns, I'd imagine that they are robotics assisted in aiming, the only reason they aren't bs4 at the moment ( or was in 4th atleast) is to even the playing field so crisis suit dont totally own, not an issue of driver inexperience....

Ah, I see. So with all that high tech gear, it doesn't really matter who is behind the trigger? Or does experience with the equipment have to matter? Either it does or it doesn't, and from all the fluff I have seen posted here, Tau are taking experienced boots (which are not reflected as having BS4, unless I'm missing something?) out of their familiar environments and putting them into something completely new to their experience? Sounds like they're taking an old hat and turning it green all over again..... I'm not saying Tau are inept or anything, but if GW didn't think "hey, these guys are the vets, shouldn't they have BS4?" then that means they thought of a reason not to. Considering some reasonable logical deductions (earlier in my post), maybe that is also what they had in mind.

Now, I'm not saying BS4 Crisis Suits isn't unreasonable. But don't flambe pollock and tell me it's salmon (damn Germans!).

Skinnattittar wrote:.

That aside, skill is relative to an attribute. It doesn't say. Now we can assume they are superior in shooting, but enough to make it to BS4? We can try and compare it to Guard Vets, but Guard doesn't have anything like Crisis Suit units in stats or fluff. Sentinels make a close approach, and they are only BS3 (they too, are often described as being elite Guardsmen, though the IG doesn't select Sentinel Crew from the ranks of marching boots).

We all can't be Gunny Hathcock can we? I do love my 30-06.

They should be better than the other ground pounders being an elite slot and all.
I dunno, the IG codex doesn't say anything about the pilots being anything special (page 45 in the IG codex); the only thing I saw was something about them being considered to be "hotshot mavericks". Is there any fluff elsewhere that would collaborate your statement? The closest unit that could find similar wording for was under veterans. Crisis suits pilots are proven veterans of several campaigns.

I agree that firewarriors shouldn't have a BS4 but there is definitely an argument for the outright elite force of an army to be better at their job than green grunts that just made it through boot. I guess I just let my personal experice color things a bit because to me Shas'uis are similar to gunny sergeants to me and a hard-bitten gunny is worth 10 recruits (to hear them talk they're worth 100).

It's nice to postulate on this stuff but I'm genuinely curious what changes GW will make. I enjoy seeing all the codexes and the updates are exciting, even for armies I don't play.

I just said that crisis suits aren't bs 4 for balance purposes.....

Im talking fluff here, and I also stated that it does in fact take an experienced gunman, the suit simple holds it for them, providing steady aim! oh like whats useful when "bunny" hopping around. While myself and others are making sense here, your jumping from one extreme to the next. Now not that either of use have controlled a mech suit before (unless your that experienced around here) we have no idea how its controlled, being as advanced as they are, I imagine that its just like moving your regular body so the movements are fluid and natural. Again, being a vet they can handle thier gun and know the moves, since thats second nature they can move on to more advanced things like a suit, so its just one thing to focus on. Not like pulling a trigger has changed any
oh, and if you burn the fish enough, you cant tell the difference, enjoy your salmon sir.

Edit: sorry trying to fix spelling issues, im typing with a broken pinkie lol

Blind wrote:I just said that crisis suits aren't bs 4 for balance purposes.....

Im talking fluff here, and I also stated that it does in fact take an experienced gunman, the suit simple holds it for them, providing steady aim! oh like whats useful when "bunny" hopping around. While myself and others are making sense here, your jumping from one extreme to the next. Now not that either of use have controlled a mech suit before (unless your that experienced around here) we have no idea how its controlled, being as advanced as they are, I imagine that its just like moving your regular body so the movements are fluid and natural. Again, being a vet they can handle thier gun and know the moves, since thats second nature they can move on to more advanced things like a suit, so its just one thing to focus on. Not like pulling a trigger has changed any
oh, and if you burn the fish enough, you cant tell the difference, enjoy your salmon sir.

Edit: sorry trying to fix spelling issues, im typing with a broken pinkie lol

Well then by those assumptions, they should be BS10. I mean, I've only piloted a handful of Crisis suits, and considering that I'm not a Tau, my experience couldn't be of too much use. But I distinctly remember the whole thing was controlled by bubblegum chewing and errant body projections. There actually wasn't any tech on the inside, mostly just a lot of buff and polish to make people think it was advanced. Turns out, Crisis suits operate on dumb luck!

Stupidity aside, making one assumption or the other actually does nothing when you know just as much. You say they're super advanced and BS4+, I say Tau are so blind and over confident they're BS1. Since neither is held up by actual fluff or fact, we have to run with what we do know.

In the realm of logical examination, where we don't make wild assumptions to support our hypothesis (what we consider to be true), we can compare how technology assists crews. In WWII Sherman Tanks and Airial Bombers had gyroscopic sighting systems. When sitting still, they did nothing much to improve the accuracy of the crews over regular scope sights, but when on the move, they greatly increased the accuracy of the user. We still use similar technology today (while where then it was mostly analog, today we use mostly digital). Taking that example and imposing it on a fictional universe, we can make an inference (rather than an assumption) that their tech does something similar. Since we "know" that by some fluff your unassisted Firewarrior has inferior ballistic abilities than your typical Guardsmen, their scopes and sights are what put them on even ground. Now put those Firewarriors in high tech suits, from a stationary position, yes, that extra bit of tech could boost their shooting abilities. But now get them hopping around as they do.... well even technology can't make you a sure shot (or else they would be BS10 as the fluff goes, as would Space Marines and perhaps even Guardsmen with more advanced equipment).

Further fluff reasons for why suits should have BS 4: pg 33, Ethereal--Veteran Honour Guard

"...may be accompanied by an Honour Guard of Veteran Fire Warriors who have chosen to forgo the normal progression to battlesuit pilot and then Commander."

They get BS 4.

Combined with the fluff already mentioned on pg 34, I see no reason why suits should not have BS 4 standard, since apparently the Veteran Honour Guard FWs are pretty much the same guys, but with no suits.

Actually the fluff does support that they are technologically advanced and unafraid of it unlike the imperium, it also says that although they take longer to focus at greater distances than humans, they have great vision.
Your just factoring scopes here though, the Tau suits aren't seeing with tau eyes through a scope, the head of the suit is not where the driver is, sensors and cameras see for them, I'd INFER by todays tech, a good example being the cameras mounted on autonomous drones and aircraft of today, that a Tau suit , which is in fact advanced, can easily track and shoot in mid-air and handle movement very well. Otherwise the GW art itself is lying and we might as well mount crisis suit guns on a devilfish and get better results
As stated before, once again, I said the experienced driver does the shooting, the suit simply holds the gun steady.....
And also again, from one extreme to the next, first the tau arent supported by fluff to do it then it should be bs 10 if it is?
Space marines have power armour, so they are stronger and quicker, they dont have whats considered highly advanced tech in it as I'm aware due to the technology stigma that is throughout the Imperium. The Tau do not hold this stigma and why should they? We dont want another imperium in the game, theres enough human runoffs as is. Although, why should a sm get a bs upgrade? they are already one of the most powerful troop options to begin with, with boosted bs for vets, you might as well quit and call it Warhammer Imperium....

Black Antelope wrote:

schadenfreude wrote:
Next change the way pathfinders operate.
Keep pathfinders at BS3, and combine 2 models into a heavy weapons team like IG. Have them operate as a marker light and a spotter turning the markerlight into a twin linked markerlight. That will raise the chance of a marker light hitting from 50% to 75%, which is actually better than BS4 (66%) Best of all it's using teamwork instead of individual combat prowess, which fits the theme of the Tau army more than super warriors that have BS4.

That makes PF worse, though, as they go from 50% to hit per model, to 75% per 2 models - a decrease of 14.5% in markerlight hits per models.


(I'd say option 1, and allow them to buy a DF if they want to)

It depends on cost. If the cost of each team was 16 points per team of 2 the cost per markerlight hit would be the same. Squad size could then be increased to 6 teams/12 pathfinders.

Actually if you read the fluff, Fire Warriors are natural warriors, bred for war during generations of savage internecine conflict. They are by core nature far more warlike and predatory than any other faction.

SMs get it by brainwashing.
Chaos ditto.
Tyranids revert to instinctive behaviour when let off the leash.
Orks were made for fightan and the flawed design process reduced a lot of their other characteristics such as tactical awareness.
Eldar take it up as a hobby.

Tau Fire Warriors are unique as an intelligent class which has been evolved physically, mentally and socially to wage war as their primary function.

Just a point of view, of course.

@ Killkrazy : Compare them to the average human; sociopath hairless apes. The Imperium of Man exists in 40k solely because it has been pushed to the edge of destruction via war countless times, tested again and again not just from enemies without, but also within. So perhaps by Tau standards, Firewarriors are bio-engineered warriors, but humanity has earned its position by the unforgiving bastard that is Charles Darwin (with a fair degree of bio-engineering as well). So while a Space Marine is also physically and mentally engineered as a perfect warrior, they come from the best warrior stock of a warrior race in a species of warriors.

I'm not saying you're wrong, but Tau are warriors in the same way that the Japanese were warriors: idealistic.

tiberius183 wrote:
"...may be accompanied by an Honour Guard of Veteran Fire Warriors who have chosen to forgo the normal progression to battlesuit pilot and then Commander."

They get BS 4.

I think they key word there may be commander. Commander battlesuits do have BS 4 (and then 5). Personally I agree with the idea that Crisis suits should have BS 4 standard though.

For clarification, sm are not perfect soldiers, they are big meat sacks carrying bigger guns and swords that vibrate, not perfect, otherwise they wouldnt need SOOO many freakin sm to do the job

Skinnattittar wrote:@ Killkrazy : Compare them to the average human; sociopath hairless apes. The Imperium of Man exists in 40k solely because it has been pushed to the edge of destruction via war countless times, tested again and again not just from enemies without, but also within. So perhaps by Tau standards, Firewarriors are bio-engineered warriors, but humanity has earned its position by the unforgiving bastard that is Charles Darwin (with a fair degree of bio-engineering as well). So while a Space Marine is also physically and mentally engineered as a perfect warrior, they come from the best warrior stock of a warrior race in a species of warriors.

I'm not saying you're wrong, but Tau are warriors in the same way that the Japanese were warriors: idealistic.

Not at all. Humans are nearly all non-warriors who survived by a great deal of different non-military techniques.

The Fire Caste are not bio-engineered, they are evolved as warriors though thousands of years of hunting and conflict.

I think the codex should stay the same entirely....

and the fact that you people were arguing over BS4 earlier makes no sense. That's what marker lights are for, do you people not read unit entrys? Plus there would be no Fire warriors with BS4 because fire warriors are the lowest of the warriors int he army. They're like imperial guardsmen but with better weapons and therefore no need for a heavy bolter (their pulse rifles have as much strength as heavy bolters anyway) or autocannon or whatever you want. That's what the battlesuits are for which are veteran fire warriors. You could argue that they have BS 3 because they are only starting to use their suits anyways, and if you wanted to give them BS4 then give them the targetting array. Even then they could still have their multi-tracker and a few other options from the hard-wired equipment which you can take as much of those as you like.

If you want firewarriors with a good BS you could buy them a sergeant. Give the sergeant a markerlight and the hard-wired drone controller. Give them a marker drone like you're supposed to to give them BS 4/5 and then if the unit stays still like a firewarrior unit usually would unless you have a mechanized rush list going then it would get 3 markerlight shots down on an enemy. Albeit the fact that this is expensive, that is how it is supposed to be.

grayspark wrote:I think the codex should stay the same entirely....

and the fact that you people were arguing over BS4 earlier makes no sense. That's what marker lights are for, do you people not read unit entrys? Plus there would be no Fire warriors with BS4 because fire warriors are the lowest of the warriors int he army. They're like imperial guardsmen but with better weapons and therefore no need for a heavy bolter (their pulse rifles have as much strength as heavy bolters anyway) or autocannon or whatever you want. That's what the battlesuits are for which are veteran fire warriors. You could argue that they have BS 3 because they are only starting to use their suits anyways, and if you wanted to give them BS4 then give them the targetting array. Even then they could still have their multi-tracker and a few other options from the hard-wired equipment which you can take as much of those as you like.

If you want firewarriors with a good BS you could buy them a sergeant. Give the sergeant a markerlight and the hard-wired drone controller. Give them a marker drone like you're supposed to to give them BS 4/5 and then if the unit stays still like a firewarrior unit usually would unless you have a mechanized rush list going then it would get 3 markerlight shots down on an enemy. Albeit the fact that this is expensive, that is how it is supposed to be.

Other then the fact that we moved on from FW having bs 4, which they shouldnt; your going to say that all veterans are new to thier suit? really? The tau are new but they have expanded into space, albeit a small region, but far from possible for all suits to be new guys, something that generalized can be used on Sm, oh they are just getting used to the new power Armour and new brain. The thing is, for a veteran unit such as the crisis suit, you shouldnt need to pump in another 10 points to get a boosted BS, whats the point of a shooty army thats elites arent even better shots? more survivable definitely but in melee armies, veterans are better at melee, why cant the Tau get better? Tau is really the middle priced army, not too expensive not too cheap, they are not a high priced army and so high priced units wont work very well unless they DO come with better BS

So you like having worthless HQ choices like BS3 bodyguard and Ehterals and worthless fast attack like Vespid. Ok, by all means continue to play with the 4E book when the new one comes out.

Personally, if you had read the entire thread, I feel that most of us are fine with the run of the mill FW having a BS of 3. It's the elite choices that need to be better IMHO.

Even orks have better dependability than the entire shooting segment depending on how many 4+ markerlight hits you get. That's my grief with markerlights.

Other then the fact that we moved on from FW having bs 4, which they shouldnt; your going to say that all veterans are new to thier suit? really? The tau are new but they have expanded into space, albeit a small region, but far from possible for all suits to be new guys, something that generalized can be used on Sm, oh they are just getting used to the new power Armour and new brain. The thing is, for a veteran unit such as the crisis suit, you shouldnt need to pump in another 10 points to get a boosted BS, whats the point of a shooty army thats elites arent even better shots? more survivable definitely but in melee armies, veterans are better at melee, why cant the Tau get better? Tau is really the middle priced army, not too expensive not too cheap, they are not a high priced army and so high priced units wont work very well unless they DO come with better BS

sorry about the fact that we apparently moved on from it, I just clicked on the thing and didn't go to page 2 or 3...

and the "veterans" for the battlesuits are the bodyguard for the Shas'o/el and I'm pretty sure they have BS4

Also most lists don't have veterans that are better at shooting.
let's list em out
Orks/Space Marines/Chaos Space Marines/Tau/Necrons

basically all of them. it's for balance purposes. I don't see why everybody is whining about it going on about how unfair/unbalanced it is (earlier in the article, afraid I haven't read further than the first page and I thought the first page was the only page).

All of their weapons besides the Kroot rifles are already STR 5, what more do you want? They're already friggin strong.

I have a Tau army and I've played Tau armies and let me say, if you use them correctly you'll do great. even if you spend that extra "10 points" you're crying about they aren't an expensive army. That 10 points right there just makes them a lot more versatile for only 10 points. It's like having an Imperial Guard special weapons Team that is BS4 (with array), can move 12" a turn, or even jump back into cover, has 2 weapons each, and can fire them both.
I've even done it before where I make both weapons twin-linked and then give them a shield generator and that works fantastic too.

overall people shouldn't cry about it


EDIT: actually the only thing I would complain about would be the Pathfinders having only BS3. They're supposed to be using precision targeting equipment and yet they only have BS3? But when they pick up the ever-useless railrifle they get BS 4? Then again it isn't a Codex if some parts of it are weak...

A strong gun is only good if it hits.... and who's crying? if defending my belief is crying then this forums a flood gate of tears. Crisis suits are great, i think we all understand this, from a totally removed view on balance though, wouldn't you think that a veteran manned suit would have better aim than the run of the mill soldier? Just odd, that and crisis suits are the only consistently good elite option imo.

I agree about the pf though, does seem odd that the group designed to improve accuracy cant shoot well on its own.

and the "veterans" for the battlesuits are the bodyguard for the Shas'o/el and I'm pretty sure they have BS4

No BS3

Also most lists don't have veterans that are better at shooting.
let's list em out
Orks/Space Marines/Chaos Space Marines

All these are CC focused armies and their veterans are better in CC.

All of their weapons besides the Kroot rifles are already STR 5, what more do you want? They're already friggin strong.

We want them to hit, we want eth army to be balanced with the other armies in the game. IG out shoot us and out assault us. SM can match our shooting and out assault us. Sisters (a really old codex) can out shoot and out assault us!!

We are the only army totally dependant on never reaching combat (IG can tarpit or even win wars of attrition in CC, all other armies can assault well) yet we aren't even the best shots or even the most mobile shots (IG now match our mobility).

That 10 points right there just makes them a lot more versatile for only 10 points. It's like having an Imperial Guard special weapons Team that is BS4 (with array), can move 12" a turn, or even jump back into cover, has 2 weapons each, and can fire them both.

Not erally that much mroe vesatile just slightly less dependant on the unreliable MLs. And if you're taking a TA you can't fire 2 weapons as only team leaders can take hardwired stuff.

I've even done it before where I make both weapons twin-linked and then give them a shield generator and that works fantastic too.

Expensive 1 gun platform that is still not that survivable.

overall people shouldn't cry about it

Not crying just pointing out with eth possible exception of the Necrons the Tau are by far the weakest army out there. An army totally dependant on avoiding combat in a game where most people can assault you on turn 1 just doesn;t work unless their shooting is devastating (which would just make the game boring) or they gain new tactics and methods to avoid combat.

FlingitNow wrote:Not crying just pointing out with eth possible exception of the Necrons the Tau are by far the weakest army out there. An army totally dependant on avoiding combat in a game where most people can assault you on turn 1...

Which happened when I went up against new codex BA (and 2/3 of my stuff got slaughtered by the end of turn 2)...

New Codices barely count for such purposes. A lot of people are still crying the new IG codex is cheese. People just haven't adjusted to it yet. Those that have (and there are a great many) find them just as vulnerable as they were before, just more mobile and actually competitive due to their new volume.

No the codex didnt kill us, the new rules, added chargin abilities and sprinting (or running w/e its called) is whats doing it, the new codicies are just tailored to best fit the new rules.

Kill Tau? The Tau aren't dead.... yeah, they now have the honor of holding the "Most Skilled" army, but that hardly means they're "broken" or "dead." Imperial Guard held that honor for damn near fifteen years! People kept buying and playing them though.