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Ratbarf wrote:Video games will never replace the Table top game, they can fix certain problems with it, local player base for example, and I know that my brother's entire playgroup was brought about by DoW.

What about virtual reallity where you assume a position of some leader.The US army is already testing VI IIRC.
Virtual games introduced me to 40k,thank DOWC,but tabletop is better than it because of the community.

Virtual reality will certainly be a new thing for wargames, and it will be a very different experience to what we are used to.

Pilots have had virtual reality for years in flight simulators.

The thing for a wargamer is what level of command is being realised. If you are a general, you may well be sat in an office with a bunch of maps and a telephone, which can be created now and I have been involved in various megagames which create that kind of environment.

I think what people mean by virtual reality is (a) super immersive graphics, (b) that everyone is a captain, so they get some people to order around and don't just get ordered.

Also you will probably have a headache and a wet bum.

However, all the above does not create the same level of involvement as a tabletop game. At least half the fun of a TTWG is researching, planning, building and painting your army and terrain.

Kilkrazy, are you saying wargaming is the UK's National sport?

Cause Starcraft is South Korea's national sport.

As for events, Wargaming Events don't compare to the big gaming events like WCG, E3 and the like.


This is a Starcraft Finals match.

Kilkrazy wrote:Virtual reality will certainly be a new thing for wargames, and it will be a very different experience to what we are used to.

Pilots have had virtual reality for years in flight simulators.

The thing for a wargamer is what level of command is being realised. If you are a general, you may well be sat in an office with a bunch of maps and a telephone, which can be created now and I have been involved in various megagames which create that kind of environment.

I think what people mean by virtual reality is (a) super immersive graphics, (b) that everyone is a captain, so they get some people to order around and don't just get ordered.

Also you will probably have a headache and a wet bum.

However, all the above does not create the same level of involvement as a tabletop game. At least half the fun of a TTWG is researching, planning, building and painting your army and terrain.

Agreed,but it would be awesome to assume the role of a God Emperor on the outset of the Great Crusade,VI would be great for Dark Heresy and Rouge Trader and not everyone would be a captain,you would be let's say a guardsmen while the other player would be a colonel.
To me 40k is great because of the community,fun and because some people can do awesome paint jobs(or sculpt a model).

Flight sims aren't virtual reality... virtual reality hasn't been invented yet. You need force feedback and the like and most likely a direct connection to the brain for that.

Soladrin wrote:Kilkrazy, are you saying wargaming is the UK's National sport?

Cause Starcraft is South Korea's national sport.

As for events, Wargaming Events don't compare to the big gaming events like WCG, E3 and the like.


This is a Starcraft Finals match.

Taekwondo is Korea's national sport.

I've never heard of WCG.

No-one outside Korea gives a crap about Starcraft.

E3 is a marketing event. It has no relation to what people are doing for themselves. Ditto Gamescom, TGS and whatever.

PAX, as I said earlier, is the biggest fan run videogame show.

WCG? World Cyber games?

And no one giving a crap about starcraft.. so? It's there?

Oh... its to bad we can't count online events..

Anyway, Video games have more players anyway XD

HERESY!
Starcraft is cared about all over the world.
I'm going to now cry in my pillow.

Nope, I've never heard of World Cyber Games.

Count online events if you like, providing they can be documented. Physical wargaming events are easily documented on Google.

What are you trying to say? It's perfectly clear that video games do not reduce conventional games. In fact, the internet has helped a boom in TTG. There certainly is a lot more of it around than when I was a youngster.

The fact people are here in Dakka shows they have not been put off TTG by video games.

well one thing ive noticed is that DoW has really helped to break that age old 80's movie stereotype of that nerdy gamer, its by no means completely changing the way the public sees wargaming but it makes it a little more socially acceptable and gives people a good intro to the universe without swamping them

I'm just saying that gaming events just occur more, and are usually bigger, here in The Netherlands you have The Party (1000+ people indoor LAN party) and Camp Zone (1750 outdoor LAN party which lasts 11 days)

I've made a major shift from Warhammer 40k to D&D because it's a lot cheaper. Just have to buy a few books get a group of friends a few of you makes some characters and the other guys narrates the Story.

Hell, I play DDO (Dungeons and Dragons Online) because it's free and lets me play through a decent story line.




I still play 40k of course.

I think the whole Video Games Vs 40k argument should ease up a bit. As a gamer myself I can say that they have little negative affect on each other. They also cannot be compared with each other as they are completely different hobbies. Whiles they are both creative, strategic and competitive, they are different. It's like comparing apples and oranges. Saying that one thing lacks a superior aspect or is superior to the other isn't proving anything.

I was brought over by the DOW series, but frankly I love both in equal measure.

TT is great for hanging out with friends on long breaks and the hobby aspect (Painting/Modeling/Kitbashing) is fun for me in a way that nothing for the past few years has come close to.

The video game arena is fun for short quick games, and being able to see and hear the carnage actually playing out in front of me - something Relic does really well in the DOW series imho. But it's a totally different use of my time.

/2cents

I definitely agree with the idea that video games dont give nearly as much community as 40k [stay strong brothers] but some of them, especially dawn of war have some interesting concepts that could be implemented into the game...maybe.

Kilkrazy wrote:

Platuan4th wrote:

Kilkrazy wrote:PAX is probably the biggest and includes traditional RPGs as well as computer games.

Doesn't PAX also have WarmaHordes tournaments?

I don't know what that is.

WarmaHordes is a combination word commonly used for Warmachine and Hordes(since they're technically two games with the same core rules) played together(as in events not limited to one or the other). I heard that in past years they've hosted Privateer Press events(since Tycho is a TT fan/gamer at times) at PAX.

I'd have to agree that with the advent of Dawn of War, video games have done good for Games Workshop.

I started playing 40K last year, after playing DoW Dark Crusade for about 2 years. It started with my Roomate showing me some sync kills, then buying the game for 30 dollars on sale... and next thing you know I'm still playing online 3 years later and now own a few hundred dollars of Eldar, and loving it.

To those who say that video games are cheaper than 40K, that's only right if you DON'T BUY ANYMORE VIDEO GAMES. Most people who call themselves "gamers", my brother for instance, generally buy new video games fairly often, and over the summer he plays them on xbox live. I spend 0 dollars on video games (I only play slash'em, Kingdom of Loathing, and Dark Crusade) and buying 2 boxes of troops, or a new spaceship costs me about as much as a new X box game.

The other cost reducer about 40K is that every purchase is cumulative. I spent 20 dollars for a war walker on ebay, and I have used it in every game I've played, same with my dire avengers, and my farseer, the only models that never get used anymore is my squad of Guardian Defenders that came with the battle force- because they consistently fail epically.

In short, if it wasn't for video games like Dawn of War, there's no way I would have spent any money on games workshop products, and I know a lot of people on this forum started the same way.

Kilkrazy wrote:
Count online events if you like, providing they can be documented. Physical wargaming events are easily documented on Google.

http://www.mlgpro.com/

http://sports.espn.go.com/videogames/mlg (On ESPN, is Gamesday on ESPN?)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electronic_Sports -(Shows you other professionally recognized and corporately sponsored Video Gaming Leagues/Teams)

Case and point, people can make thousands of dollars an event PLAYING video games, NOT the same with Wargaming.

Again, stray from the VG vs TTG. I love both, but sadly it is a battle that cannot be won by TTGs. Even the "community" argument, if you look at the Beardies vs Contributing members of society ratio in TTGs, you would be surprised how less off TTG communizes have to communities that have pro-gamers, or just communities of video gamers. (Keep in mind FARMVILLE is a VIDEOGAME and a community of TTGers is 10-30 per hundred miles while a community of VGers can be (and usually is) several thousand)

The two (arguably?) most popular pc games out there are World of Warcraft and the Warcraft/Starcraft games. These games borrow HEAVILY from GW products(story, character design, class design, scenery, essentially everything besides the hard code) and continue to rely upon warhammer fantasy/40k fluff for new expansion ideas, new character classes, new gameplay ideas, etc. So those games being so popular is more a triumph of the tabletop gaming world than something we need to worry about eventually eclipsing this hobby.

Daemon-Archon Ren wrote:

people can make thousands of dollars an event PLAYING video games, NOT the same with Wargaming.

People can make thousands of dollars (and much more) doing a simple hobby and selling the results. You can also make lots of money in prizes at wargaming tournaments (either official or home grown). Games like world of warcraft can do this for you as well(I myself sold an account on WoW for $1500). I don't see the difference here. One person enjoys their offline hobby and makes money. Another person enjoys their online/plugged-in hobby and makes money.

Halsfield wrote:The two (arguably?) most popular pc games out there are World of Warcraft and the Warcraft/Starcraft games. These games borrow HEAVILY from GW products(story, character design, class design, scenery, essentially everything besides the hard code) and continue to rely upon warhammer fantasy/40k fluff for new expansion ideas, new character classes, new gameplay ideas, etc. So those games being so popular is more a triumph of the tabletop gaming world than something we need to worry about eventually eclipsing this hobby.

Actually, Call of Duty Modern Warfare (and 2), Halo 2 (and 3), and Counterstrike both have SIGNIFICANTLY larger followings then both those franchises combined. All of which are FPS that have NOTHING to do with ANY GW IP.

As far as pro-circut, Starcraft and Warcraft make up a tiny part of the roster, as seen in the line ups below...

The MLG pro circuit roster includes four Xbox 360 games: Halo 3, Tom Clancy's Rainbow Six: Vegas 2, Gears of War 2, and Call of Duty 4; and one PC game: World of Warcraft.[15] Call of Duty 4 and Tom Clancy's Rainbow Six: Vegas 2 are online-only pro circuit titles.[15] The head commentator as of 2008 was Chris Puckett, and other commentators include Sundance DiGiovanni, Andreas Pierson (Nexy), DMAQ, Faruq Tauheed and Scott Lussier (Gandhi).[16]

Major League Gaming also hosts a series of online qualifier ladders for the online-only pro circuit titles leading to the national championship. In the past, MLG hosted Super Smash Bros Melee tournaments during the 2006 MLG season and other games (such as Halo: Combat Evolved, Halo 2, Gears of War, Tom Clancy's Rainbow Six: Vegas, and Shadowrun).[citation needed]

Each team must purchase a team pass to compete. Halo 3, Gears of War, and Rainbow Six: Vegas 2 teams include 4 members, while World of Warcraft teams include 3 members.[17]

On February 6, 2009, MLG Commissioner John Nelson addressed the MLG community about changing the format for the 2009 pro circuit. Semi-pro teams now have the opportunity to gain pro status. The rolling rank points system and the championship bracket were also modified.[18]


MLG archive, as of January 2010, includes national championship results from 2004 to 2009.[19]

2009 - Orlando
2009 4th
Halo 3 4v4 Believe the Hype Classic Carbon Instinct
Gears of War 2 4v4 TH3 NSAN3Z Type-Z Vision Get Bronco Infinity
Tom Clancy's Rainbow Six: Vegas 2 4v4 pT RAGE EFX Rewritten Vengeance Carnage and Chaos
Call of Duty 4: Modern Warfare 4v4 Xtravagant Icons BgR EnVyUs DpG FeaR MoB Genesis

2008 - Las Vegas
2008 4th
Halo 3 4v4 Str8 Rippin Instinct Carbon Final Boss
Gears of War 4v4 TH3 NSAN3Z Infinity FRAG High Caliber Dynasty Retaliation
Tom Clancy's Rainbow Six Vegas 2 4v4 MoB RAGE Iconz Instill Fear MoB Lost Cause
Call of Duty 4: Modern Warfare 4v4 CA FeaR EnVyUs Head Trauma TBRE

2007 - Las Vegas
2007 4th
Halo 2 4v4 Final Boss Carbon Str8 Rippin FBI The Agency
Halo 2 FFA KGB Soviet Cloud Naded Legit
Gears of War 4v4 Infinity TH3 NSAN3Z Vision LGD Red
Tom Clancy's Rainbow Six: Vegas 4v4 New Era HaRMoNY N HaVoC ProFe$$ioNaL $Kill$ ExPLiCiT
Shadowrun 4v4 Three Shot Killers Shoot to Kill Secret Weapon UprisinG

2006 - Las Vegas
2006 4th
Halo 2 4v4 Carbon Final Boss Str8 Rippin Legendz
Halo 2 FFA Karma StrongSide Walshy OGRE 2
Super Smash Bros. Melee 2v2 Ken/Isai Chudat/ManaCloud King/Mew2King Husband/Wife
Super Smash Bros. Melee 1v1 PC Chris KoreanDJ Ken Mew2King

2005 - New York City
2005 4th
Halo 2 4v4 Team 3D Team Phreaks Str8 Rippin XiT Woundz
Halo 2 FFA Karma StrongSide OGRE 1 Walshy
Super Smash Bros. Melee 2v2 Ken/Isai Azen/Chillin
Super Smash Bros. Melee 1v1 Ken Azen ChuDat

2004 - New York City
2004 4th
Halo: Combat Evolved 4v4 Team Domination Filthy Jackalopes Business Decision The Dream Team
Halo: Combat Evolved 2v2
Halo: Combat Evolved FFA Zyos OGRE 2 Walshy Gintron
Super Smash Bros. Melee 2v2
Super Smash Bros. Melee 1v1

But again, there is no need to worry because, as stated before, Videogames have no intention of eliminating TTGs from the market, BECAUSE THEY ARE NOT A THREAT...

However as for this;

Daemon-Archon Ren wrote:

people can make thousands of dollars an event PLAYING video games, NOT the same with Wargaming.

Halsfield wrote:
People can make thousands of dollars (and much more) doing a simple hobby and selling the results. You can also make lots of money in prizes at wargaming tournaments (either official or home grown). Games like world of warcraft can do this for you as well(I myself sold an account on WoW for $1500). I don't see the difference here. One person enjoys their offline hobby and makes money. Another person enjoys their online/plugged-in hobby and makes money.

Selling your hard earned work and winning a competition are two VERY different things. For instance, you mentioned a wow account vs a warhammer army.

Lets say you have a PHENOMINALLY painted army that was HUGE. The most you may be able to sell it for would be from 1500-3000 dollars.

You said you sold your wow account for 1500 dollars.

After selling an account, you have to buy another, and work your way to get it to the point that it was.

The wow account will cost 70$ +15$ a month for X months (lets go crazy with it and say 3 years) sooo 605$ (First month is free)

The army will cost you at least 1200$ (See previous post for where the cost comes from).

Lets assume same amount of labor on each (however a 3000$ army will probably require more labor and cost then currently associated.) The wow Account is still more profitable.

Now, lets say you took your pro account and pro army and competed for money.

With the wow account, if you won the 2008 MLG Championship (for 3 years) you would have 16000$ (split 3 ways would bank you 5333$ a year to 16000$ in 3 years) if you had a top-level sponsorship you are also looking at 80000 a year so in that three year period you are banking 256000$

With the TTG army if you won Gamesday you would win a ForgeWorld Thunderhawk and a Battle Foam MaxPack Custom Loadout with the full custom cutout for the Thunderhawk. Lets be REALLY nice with this one and value it at 1000$. So, 3 years of this would bank you 3000$, assuming you could sell at face, lets say you charge an additional 350 for paint/assembly of each kit. 3900$ Now, skewing the figures more TOWARD TTGS and saying that you hit up 12 tournys a year, made the same amount from each tourny (1350$) and didn't have to spend a dime getting to any of these cons...

Warhammer Pro-Circuit 48600$/3 = 16200$ a year (almost half federal poverty level)

Warcraft Pro-League 256000$/3 = 8533.33$ a year (Top 20% average HOUSEHOLD ((Combined in the case of spouses etc)) income in the United States)

It might be just me... but I see a difference here...

Kilkrazy wrote:no-one outside Korea gives a crap about Starcraft.
.

wrong starcraft is South Africa's most cutting edge fast paced video game yet, I can't wait to finally upgrade to 98 and play it

just kidding

it's not that bad

Daemon-Archon Ren wrote:

Case and point, people can make thousands of dollars an event PLAYING video games, NOT the same with Wargaming.

Maybe not wargames, but the same CAN be said of card games. The Pokemon and Magic World Championships have proven that, and the Magic one's been around since before the WCG even existed. Had television coverage on ESPN 2 before the WCG, too.

I can't remember who I agree with but you can't compare ttb and vg, and firewarrior isn't a bad game, it's just not a great one. back on topic, both vg and ttg offer distinctly different things. I love both. and i've exerienced more community in gaming. and the debates are just as heated.

Re the cost argument:

40k is not an expensive hobby to maintain. It is one of the cheapest of all the game related hobbies.

It is only somewhat more expensive to start.

Examples:
I've been playing 40k for 23 years. I still use many models I bought at the outset. When averaged out over time, 40k is by far my cheapest hobby. I've spent more money total on PCs than I have on 40k, and I didn't get my first PC until I had already been playing 40k for 10 years. This does not include money spent on games, game consoles, games for those game consoles, and various accessories.

Sure, one game plus one console is cheaper than a full army. But how many armies do people really buy? How many game machines and games do people buy? That second number is vastly larger than the first.

DarknessEternal wrote:40k is not an expensive hobby to maintain. It is one of the cheapest of all the game related hobbies.

I'm guessing that you are being sarcastic...

Sure, you could get by with paying the upfront 500+$ it takes to build yourself a decent sized force...

But at ~6$ a bottle of Glue and paint ranging from 3-8$ a jar, 50-250+$ for the case (and if yo expand, multiple cases) + cost of Dice/Rules/Templates, a 50$ rule book that gets updated every 8 (or so) years, your codex getting updates (another 30$ per updates) new models coming out, and new rules for these models making them "must haves", so you are also shelling out a good 150+$ per release...

also, its moreso found that people who have been in the hobby for 20+ years (hell, even if they have only been playing for half that amount!) have at LEAST 3 armies, which is 3x the cost (if not more, cause if you are buying newer stuff, you are paying more then you did when you first entered the hobby) and the effort to maintain that army.

So yeah, the cost of 40K isnt too high to maintain if you play roughtly 1 game a month, but then you have to weight out the "Hours of Enjoyment/usage" vs cost of entertainment. Its how the 15$ a month subscription fee is so easily justified... sure I'm paying 15$ a month playing wow, but that saves me the 60$ per game (If I buy one every month) or 50+$ to go paint balling (1 day of fun vs an entire month) or even worse, if I go see 2 movies in a month, thats about 40$ (with cost of popcorn) for about 3-4 hours of entertainment, vs the 15$ I spent to play wow as long as I want every day of the week (except tuesdays!).

So yeah, staying "up-to-date" on PC game/gaming systems can be rather pricey, but the cost of doing the same in 40K is outrageously higher (if you are as adament about owning every console as much as you are about owning every army/updated mini, you are going to pass your VG costs rather quickly, and make it seem extremely insignificant by around army # 5)

And then there is Forgeworld...

~DAR

Daemon-Archon Ren wrote:

DarknessEternal wrote:40k is not an expensive hobby to maintain. It is one of the cheapest of all the game related hobbies.

I'm guessing that you are being sarcastic...

And I assume you're being an idiot since you're putting words in my mouth.

I meant exactly what I said. 40k is a cheap hobby. Try adding up all the money people are spending on video games or even booze and cigarettes. 40k is much cheaper in the long run.

Your costs are not accurate, at least not to my area.

Glue is under a dollar. Paint is 2 and change. I got all of my cases combined (7) and the material to pack for about 30 total. Dice are trivial, everyone owns a zillion dice (which is why GW uses the d6). You only have to buy models once. It's rare for armies to get new units, because it's rare they get updated. 50 bucks every 8 years is expensive? It's that much every two weeks for the video game crowd.

Hey everyone! Let's review rule no.1.

DarknessEternal wrote:Glue is under a dollar. Paint is 2 and change. I got all of my cases combined (7) and the material to pack for about 30 total. Dice are trivial, everyone owns a zillion dice (which is why GW uses the d6). You only have to buy models once. It's rare for armies to get new units, because it's rare they get updated. 50 bucks every 8 years is expensive? It's that much every two weeks for the video game crowd.

At best, I think you're being a bit disingenuous.

Glue is $4. Paint is 2 and change, and in my case I've got about 30 different colors that I use with regularity. Cases and foam are definitely not cheap, unless you have an inside line to an industrial manufacturer that receives raw materials packed in foam and do your own cutting. You also have to pick up clippers, some sort of hobby razor, and brushes. Your one-time cost of entry into the modeling aspect of the hobby is close to $30 if you get 5 colors and carry your models in an old shoebox. If you get actual model cases and foam, you're looking at $100 easy.

You have to buy models several times, especially as editions change with the tendency to release 'new and better models'. To compare a Same Army/Same Models For Last 5 Years 40k player to a Buy Every New Game Videogamer is not at all the same thing.

I tend to play new armies, as they're released, just to get a feel for them. I just recently bought an entire Terminator army list for Deathwing. I've easily spent more than $7,000 on just GW miniatures and 'essentials' in the 3 years I've been in the hobby. If you compare a TT gamer like me to someone playing Counterstrike on a 6 year old Dell, the cost structure does a complete flip-flop.

Soladrin wrote:I'm just saying that gaming events just occur more, and are usually bigger, here in The Netherlands you have The Party (1000+ people indoor LAN party) and Camp Zone (1750 outdoor LAN party which lasts 11 days)

1000 people isn't a lot. Games Day (UK) broke 1000 attendees in 1977.

DarknessEternal wrote:
Your costs are not accurate, at least not to my area.

Your personal attack aside (bad form btw...) lets go ahead and check that...

I'm going to build a standard Blood angels army(for something like 'ard Boyz), going with Seth's paint scheme (its the most basic I can think of), a semi-competive build with 0 versitility/Options but it will be WYSIWYG. Lets go with 2500 points.

50$ Main Rule Book

30$ Codex: Blood Angels

~10$ Dice (typically more)

5$ Cheap measuring tape (if you go VERY cheap, less then this, however, again, typically more)

~7$ GF9 templates

Modeling Supplies:

Citadel tool Kit: 120$


Note: Paints below is estimated amount to paint infantry and potentially walkers, amount of paint needed for Larger vehicles will vary.
4 Primary Red Paints 16$

4 Primary Blacks 16$

2 Off shade blacks(dark grays) 8$

2 Whites 8$

2 off shade Reds 8$

2 Ink Reds 8$

Boltgun Metal x2 8$

Gold + bronze 8$

Misc Colors (other inks, eye color, banner colors etc) 20$

Brushes: You can get a cheap and decent brush set from Michaels for around 10$, but if you are using Citidel Brushes (which if you check other threads, is the potential policy of GW stores...) you will probably go through over 50$ in brushes alone... (And you can't say the GW products are OVERPRICED and that warhammer is a CHEAP HOBBY... those two statements kinda contradict themselves...). In the total for this example however, I will price the brushes at 10$, to help balence the cost of the Citadel paints.

Troops:
Assault Marine Squad
10 Man 2 Melta gun
30$x2 60$. If Those packs don't come with melta-guns (IIRC they dont) thats another 16$ on melta guns alone (min)
Razorback 35$

Total 95$

X3 (three sets of each to fill out the troops choices.

Heavy Support:

Storm Raven Gunships (for the Assault marines to ride in)

66$

x3

Elites:

Sanguinary Priest x3
45$

Furioso Dred 45$

Furioso Dred 45$

HQ:

Mephiston Lord of Death: 20$

Command Squad 35$
Land Raider 62$



Sabol Army Case (for an army of this size) Motor Pool with about 6 trays of foam: ~100$

Now, in order to PLAY with these models, you have to put in the labor required to build the models (lets save painting for later), assuming you wanted even ahalf assed job, it would probably take around 50-200 hours to build this entire army, lets go with the "quick build" option (100 hours ((However, keep in mind, if this is someones FIRST army, it will probably take longer then this)) and lets say you only made 10$ an hour... thats another 1k right there...



Grand total (before cost of painting, and without any room to take alternative units/wargear) is...

~2225$ Wanna take the labor costs out? Cool, 1225$ just for the stuff you need to play 'ard boyz. That's a hell of alot more then an 360 and Halo3 to compete in MLG (even with a $50 a year XBOX Live Gold Subscription)

1225$ for less then 10 pounds of Plastic (which is on average, $1.35 a pound) Some paint, and a foam case (and some tools I guess, however they amount for less then 10% of the total cost).

Warhammer 40K is NOT a cheap hobby, but then again, nobody (besides You I guess...) ever really tries to make that arguement, as GW itself claims to be a Luxury Product provider. (Last Time I checked, the definition of Luxury was anything but "cheap")...


~Edit~ Updated appropriate costs with points limits(Cut astorath, the Baal, and obviously one of the Honor guards ((as there is only 1 HQ now)) and a, Incase anyone was curious, I'll provide the actual point breakdown of the list in the following "spoiler".



~DAR