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Wrexasaur wrote:

Guitardian wrote:I'm not surprised at all. What I can say, to anyone who cares, is that a lot of the homeless refuse of society are some of the best people I have ever known and truly care about other people, and they deserve respect for toughing it out in their difficult lives, not scorn for being 'losers' by society's standards. I know. I've been there.

Having been there myself, I can completely disagree with you. There are many complicated situations within the lives of many homeless people, but the best people I have met in life, were not homeless at the time. Even the best of us can make really stupid decisions, and I would be lying to myself if I actually thought a lot of the people I knew, actually cared about anyone but themselves while homeless. You may find pockets of friendship, but most times people are out to feth you over, and simply pass the concept of being worthless further into societies psyche.

I have met one or two really good people when living on the streets, and both of them had basically snapped, and lost the ability to be reasonable. Life sucks quite a bit, and it happens to suck a whole lot more when you are homeless in any large city. Most people who are homeless for a long period of time, just give up altogether, as expected. I also would not consider most homeless people losers, but it is beyond me to consider most of them good people, simply because one man tried to protect a lady who probably didn't deserve the help. I don't consider most people good or bad, just people, doing people things.

If society is reliant on the least capable of them to take care of problems, there are serious issues within it.

Here is the video... the grainy, low quality, black and white, hard to completely understand video. It is near the middle of the article.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2010/04/24/hugo-alfredo-tale-yax-doz_n_550854.html

I can see where you could get that impression. I dunno where you were at but I did 5 street years in Portland. Yeah I worked all day, paid cash, and hammering nails, but I also slept under a bench or a bridge or in a bush and yeah, we got drunk every night on cheap box wine (the "comforts of home"). There were 2 kinds of street people in Portland. One kind was ripping people off or rolling trolls or just outright stealing to get their tweak fix on. They were violent, rude, aggressive, and people you just wouldn't want to hang out with. The other kind were genuinely aware of that "we are all in the same boat so we may as well be on the same team" kind of mentality.

Back in those days, before my immigration status got worked out, we kind of formed 'tribes' that some people would consider a 'gang' of other like minded people who were just down and out for whatever reason, but genuinely well intentioned and mutually supportive. Of course it is intimidating to outsiders, tourists, suit-n-tie types... all these gutterpunks loitering in the park with their wierd hair and filthy clothes and accoustic guitars and such... but we were ALWAYS polite to the little old ladies and such no matter how much they were snubbing their noses at us. Rise above man.

I think perhaps this latter description of a 'homeless guy' is probably what this poor fella was. It's a shame none of the good upstanding citizens realize that (we all look the same to them) some of us, despite our appearance, were actually good caring people just in a tough spot. Personally I don't like that the state of my hair or my clothes made people automatically assume I was dangerous or worthless. It's a hard habit to get out of... I've been inside now for about 5 years and I still wear scummy old ripped up clothes and never bother much with showering or getting a haircut, because after so long not being ABLE to care about such frivolities, you just cease to care. You can take a Gutterpunk out of the gutter, but you will never get that gutter out of the punk, y'know?

I do not resent it at all. I had some of my wisest revelations and moments of joy and kindness in those years. But I can see where you get the impression that lots of them are worthless horrible desperate people. I'm sure you had a different experience (as does everyone in such a situation) and perhaps didn't form the right tribe with the right people. What I learned, as probably the hero/victim in this tragedy probably had realized too, is that we all do better if we help each other when needed. People who have 'stuff' sometimes forget that and take it for granted. People who have nothing and have achieved the wisdom of struggle KNOW you have to help each other, either that or they become the bitter and desperate types that you described.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Its all good and well to say "maybe that lady was a bitch anyways and he should have just stayed out of it" but that's like pretending there are no starving kids in africa. It is misogynistic and quite frankly, unfairly condescending to the deceased. He DID the right thing. Something I would have done too. Something many of us would have done too. Whether or not she was a bitch is completely not the point, EVERYONE deserves to be defended against aggression. If nobody else steps up, then I guess we have to, and sometimes these consequences happen. It's the risk we take for being noble. It's not easy, nobody said it would be, nobody told you life was fair, but you have to know what is right and sadly nobody passing by took the time to notice what was going on because it's easier to just assume he isn't your problem when you can pidgeon-hole him as just another one of 'those kind of people'.

Guitardian wrote:I can see where you could get that impression. I dunno where you were at but I did 5 street years in Portland. Yeah I worked all day, paid cash, and hammering nails, but I also slept under a bench or a bridge or in a bush and yeah, we got drunk every night on cheap box wine (the "comforts of home"). There were 2 kinds of street people in Portland. One kind was ripping people off or rolling trolls or just outright stealing to get their tweak fix on. They were violent, rude, aggressive, and people you just wouldn't want to hang out with. The other kind were genuinely aware of that "we are all in the same boat so we may as well be on the same team" kind of mentality.

I understand that idea, but it just doesn't work with the experiences I have had, and I don't think I am particularly misinformed, since I have spent time with (IMHO) people from nearly every walk of big city life, aside the richest of the rich. On the streets, I knew of a lot of different groups of people, and every single group had strange ideas about the next group, based on what I would consider self-protection. Many groups had limits on the number of people they would hang out with at an given time. Nearly everyone I met did various drugs (and I don't have much of a problem with anything besides the hard stuff), and you could see the different groups reflecting those habits.

They weren't bad people for the most part, just in bad situations, and those bad situations reflected clearly in their characters, at the time.

Back in those days, before my immigration status got worked out, we kind of formed 'tribes' that some people would consider a 'gang' of other like minded people who were just down and out for whatever reason, but genuinely well intentioned and mutually supportive. Of course it is intimidating to outsiders, tourists, suit-n-tie types... all these gutterpunks loitering in the park with their wierd hair and filthy clothes and accoustic guitars and such... but we were ALWAYS polite to the little old ladies and such no matter how much they were snubbing their noses at us. Rise above man.

It basically is a gang, but not all gangs are directly related to violent crime.

"If you mess with one of us, we will kick your teeth in."

I don't have a big problem with a concept like that, and most punks I know are genuinely cool people. There is also a big difference between being homeless, and being a crack-head who is also homeless. Groups of hard drug users tend to have less of a group mentality, but most individuals on the streets HAVE to take care of themselves, whether or not there are a group of people that can support them.

I think perhaps this latter description of a 'homeless guy' is probably what this poor fella was. It's a shame none of the good upstanding citizens realize that (we all look the same to them) some of us, despite our appearance, were actually good caring people just in a tough spot. Personally I don't like that the state of my hair or my clothes made people automatically assume I was dangerous or worthless. It's a hard habit to get out of... I've been inside now for about 5 years and I still wear scummy old ripped up clothes and never bother much with showering or getting a haircut, because after so long not being ABLE to care about such frivolities, you just cease to care. You can take a Gutterpunk out of the gutter, but you will never get that gutter out of the punk, y'know?

Good hygiene is not a sin... I can't exactly blame people that give you funny looks, you might just smell bad.

I do not resent it at all. I had some of my wisest revelations and moments of joy and kindness in those years. But I can see where you get the impression that lots of them are worthless horrible desperate people.

I didn't say that most/lots are worthless etc, etc, people; I said bad situations bring out the worst in most people. You can find a bit of support here and there, but having a group of friends, AND having a lifestyle disconnected from the streets (yes, drinking in random places becomes depressing), is a much better situation to be in, and you will be less likely to be stabbed by some crack-head. There are individuals, and there are groups, but there are larger groups as well. While homeless, staying out of the negative aspects of that situation is very difficult, and completely out of your control in a lot of situations.

I'm sure you had a different experience (as does everyone in such a situation) and perhaps didn't form the right tribe with the right people. What I learned, as probably the hero/victim in this tragedy probably had realized too, is that we all do better if we help each other when needed. People who have 'stuff' sometimes forget that and take it for granted. People who have nothing and have achieved the wisdom of struggle KNOW you have to help each other, either that or they become the bitter and desperate types that you described.

I would sooner live in the woods than stay on the streets of a large city, ever again.

Having a group of friends that are also homeless, is not worth being homeless. It is an aspect to consider, but the overwhelming crappiness of sleeping on concrete is paramount. I found that in any group I was in, there was always an aspect of fear that I would not otherwise have without them, YMMV of course.

Its all good and well to say "maybe that lady was a bitch anyways and he should have just stayed out of it" but that's like pretending there are no starving kids in africa. It is misogynistic and quite frankly, unfairly condescending to the deceased. He DID the right thing. Something I would have done too. Something many of us would have done too. Whether or not she was a bitch is completely not the point, EVERYONE deserves to be defended against aggression. If nobody else steps up, then I guess we have to, and sometimes these consequences happen. It's the risk we take for being noble. It's not easy, nobody said it would be, nobody told you life was fair, but you have to know what is right and sadly nobody passing by took the time to notice what was going on because it's easier to just assume he isn't your problem when you can pidgeon-hole him as just another one of 'those kind of people'.

This is a very wishy-washy view of the situation in my view.

Fact...
- Homeless Hero dead

Highly likely...
- Woman probably knew her assailant.

With just these two bits of information, I can honestly say that the homeless hero made a decision that had little impact on that specific situation. (especially since I was not there, and do not know exactly what led up to the stabbing). In terms of his goal, I would honestly say he failed, but he can serve as a step (and is already doing so) to recognize and address the problems within that neighborhood.

Since the man was picked up within 2 hours, the call was probably made 20 minutes after he was seen lying on the street. There are only so many emergency vehicles in any given city, not surprising it took so long. Someone may have witnessed the stabbing from a window, and immediately called the police, but no cars were available. As mentioned before, there may be a lot of gang activity in the neighborhood that people don't want to be involved in. In the worst ghettos, no one will call the police.

This is not the type of situation that would automatically push my rage button, there are just too many aspects to consider. There was a story of a high school girl being raped in the back of Richmond High school recently, that is the type of situation where I would have a hard time NOT doing anything. Life is not always so clear that I should act like Don Quixote.

I'm not entirely sure why you and Orlanth seem to think that the woman knew her assailant. As you yourself have said, there is so little to go on, so how did you come to that conclusion?

The vast majority of domestic abuse/assault cases the victim knows the assailant.

Not all but it is something in the range of +70%. So one can infer that the victim knew her attacker. Which doesn't surprise considering how many women suffer from DCS these days.

That makes sense, but only if you're including such offences that occur within a home or dwelling, out on the streets it would seem that there is a much higher chance that the assailant ISN'T known.

Again, I'm just cuatious of people jumping to conclusions and instantly labelling the woman as being (one of) the villian/s.

Emperors Faithful wrote:That makes sense, but only if you're including such offences that occur within a home or dwelling, out on the streets it would seem that there is a much higher chance that the assailant ISN'T known.

Again, I'm just cuatious of people jumping to conclusions and instantly labelling the woman as being (one of) the villian/s.

All women are evil, everyone knows that.

Most attacks by know assailants do occur in the home but sometimes the assailant might wait for the victim outside his/her home.

We can only infer that she knew the assailant. It could have been totally random, odds are it probably was but there is also the slim chance she knew the attacker and either staged the attack to victimize her would-be saint or she knew the attacker but the attack was not a set-up.

Nobody will probably ever know except the woman, the attacker, the homeless man and God.

Actually, the homeless man couldn't have known. Unless a certain amount of conversation took place before the attack. To me, as I watched the camera it seems that after the woman walked by the attack happened over a very short period of time. That either means

a) Random mugging, offender attempted to carry out as quickly as possible, and didn't know the victim.

b) Pre-planned attack, the offender knew the victim and had already decided to attack/threaten/attempt to kill them in that manner. No conversation, or not very much, took place before the intervention.

I was once on a trip to NYC to see my dad. I like to think I'm usually pretty good to the homeless, buying them food and what not. On this particular occasion, I was walking up the street and I heard a man screaming. Coming around the corner, I saw an obviously homeless man slumped against the side of the building. With one hand, he was holding up one of his pant legs, to expose a hideous wound above his ankle, and with the other, he held a plastic cup for collections.

I walked by. I told myself, the wound looked fake, if he was really injured, he would have gone to the hospital. I've been conned before, I wasn't going to this time. I don't know why I didn't do anything, called an ambulance, or something.

All I know is have yet to forgive myself for not.

A lot of them are scared to go to the hospital. They've been "off-the-grid" for so long, often have no I.D. (which was my case), or may just be intimidated by the prospect of all the paperwork, and putting himself in a situation where he is obviously not going to be able to pay, and therefore treated like gak if he does go for help. I know that back in those days, I wouldn't set foot in a place like that unless I was really REALLY hurt. Fortunately I got a solid constitution, and other than wine and cigs, nothing around that could hurt me. I knew other people though who would O.D. on heroine or meth and STILL refuse to be taken to an emergency room because they were scared the police would get involved.

A few of us learned CPR at those free classes at health clinics for precisely that reason and I have had to perform it twice on an overdose victim because he was so adamant about staying 'off-the-grid'. Dumb, I know. But hey we all do irrational things with ourselves from time to time.

There are some horrible people in this world. I think this says something about humanity as a whole.

Boss 'eadbreaka wrote:I think this says something about humanity as a whole.

Hardly, I doubt more then several hundred people walked past him as he died, maybe less. Hardly say's something about the 6.7 billion people in our world.

Lord-Loss wrote:

Boss 'eadbreaka wrote:I think this says something about humanity as a whole.

Hardly, I doubt more then several hundred people walked past him as he died, maybe less. Hardly say's something about the 6.7 billion people in our world.

About now I would normally break into the whole hippy-rant thing, saying that all 6.7 billion of us are bad, coz we made climate change, but I won't.

Boss 'eadbreaka wrote:There are some horrible people in this world. I think this says something about humanity as a whole.

Please, people only care about suffering in far away countries when sad children are involved. Homeless guy dying in the streets? There's nothing cute or newsworthy about that. Now homeless guy dying in the street after supposedly stopping a mugging, that's something that doesn't happen every day I can get on board with feeling bad about for 5 or 10 minutes then forgetting about until I need anecdote to bring up in a conversation.

My town is full of panhandlers. They act homeless with signs and everything but you can spot the phonies miles away.

Fateweaver wrote:My town is full of panhandlers. They act homeless with signs and everything but you can spot the phonies miles away.

Imitation homeless?...not quite sure what you mean here Fate.

They dress the part and have signs near the highway saying "will work for food" or "homeless, please help" but some of them are known in town to in fact NOT be homeless.

Unfortunately no law against panhandling in the town I live in so cops can do nothing about it.

Imitation homeless?...not quite sure what you mean here Fate.

We have a fare share of them here too actually. Basically it's literally people who pretend to be homeless and beg for money even though they live in a decent home. You can apparently make good change on a busy day on the streets of London. The daughter of one goes to my school.

Fateweaver wrote:They dress the part and have signs near the highway saying "will work for food" or "homeless, please help" but some of them are known in town to in fact NOT be homeless.

Unfortunately no law against panhandling in the town I live in so cops can do nothing about it.

Aha,I see what your talking about...yes,there are some people who run scams,hustle and con,several times I've given a dollar or two to a guy who "panhandles" around the corner from my job becuase his "car ran out of gas" (evidently his car runs on malt liquor).
But you have to admit Fate,there is a large percentage of people who are homeless due to factors beyond their control,people who have worked hard,served in the military and such,and have still,for one reason or another ended up on the street.

Oh I know they are there. We have a few living under one of the bridges in my town, just pointing out not all homeless are as they appear to be.

Best homeless man I ever saw had a sign saying "Need money for booze". I gave him a 10 spot because his honesty outweighed the fact he wanted money for an addiction he had.

Sad. Really and truly sad. The world needs more people like him. He proves that even when the world beats you up and throws you in the gutter, you ccan still do something with your life.

I'd give him money for lessons. I mean maybe his family WAS killed by ninjas.

Just saying.

SlaveToDorkness wrote:

Yup. Back when out there, the only signs we ever flew were ridiculously obvious. People appreciate honesty... "homeless and trying to get drunk so I can sleep tonight" or "I really want a cheeseburger but I'm broke, got 75 cents?" works a lot better than "trying to buy my grandma a new hip". Trouble is that some folks try to pull those cons and just get a free handout they don't need, and end up ruining it for the rest of us who at some time had to tell the truth "My friend is preggo, homeless, not my kid, and I'm just trying to help... can you help too?" because if you are one of those people who think it's just someone else's problem and just walk on by you will use it as an excuse to not help, assuming that a story like that is just another con artist. So it isn't really the walk-by people who can be blamed for this sort of thing occuring, it's the fakers that desensitize everyone to the idea that sometimes someone does actually honestly just need some help.

That's why if someone says they need money for booze I'll give. Drugs though? Feth off and die. No, that's not attacking homeless drug addicts, the rich can feth off and die too.

Fateweaver- the equal opportunity F-off and Die!

Sorry if I'm overly 'hippy' about this, but nobody should just feth of and die if someone can help. Drugs or otherwise. This isn't a joke it was somebody's life.

I don't know why this surprises anyone. Remember the woman that collapsed in a hospital E.R. and laid there for over an hour and died? Remember the gang rape of a girl in Richmond with at least 15 witnesses? Remember the woman in Detroit that was thrown off a bridge and died during an assault while onlookers did nothing (some reports said the onlookers cheered)?

Life is cheap and getting cheaper all the time.

Guitardian wrote:Sorry if I'm overly 'hippy' about this, but nobody should just feth of and die if someone can help. Drugs or otherwise. This isn't a joke it was somebody's life.

No excuse for getting hooked on drugs so I have no sympathy.

Boss 'eadbreaka wrote:
About now I would normally break into the whole hippy-rant thing, saying that all 6.7 billion of us are bad, coz we made climate change, but I won't.

Good thing then that we didn't right?