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I like that the lot of you speak up very strongly, and yet most of you would probably do the same in "their" situation.

A few years ago while on my way to work, there was a guy lying in a park, right next to the walkway i was using.
(typical drunk/user)

So i ask the guy if he needs help, he didin't answer. I ask the guy if he needs me to help him home.
He looks at me, silent again. I ask if hes sure he doesn't need help. No answer, so i walk away. Figuring hes sobering up.
Now this was in sweden, in daylight. So the risk of being, hurt cuz you're trying to help someone is probably 0%

In New York (from what i know, a real gak hole) at Night.

Knowing myself i would probably have checked on him, and since i have some training from the marines, i could probably help too. But am i sure? No.

Don't be so quick to judge.

Dont be quick to judge? You can see blood splatter on the ground from when he fell over, where his hands hit the pavement. Those people are cowards at least. I mean that guy that shook him, you could tell he didnt feel right about leaving the man there, as he went BACK a second time. Then still left. WTF? I think its easy for others to jump to their defense just because they cant see themselves trying to actually help another human being. And that to me, is not only cowardice, but completely disgusting

Well, someone did call emergency services.

It's crazy because we're learning about this stuff in my Intro to Psychology class right now.

Emperors Faithful wrote:Well, someone did call emergency services.

And I imagine the 911 call going something like
911 emergency how can I help you

Yea uh....theres this GUY laying around the sidewalk here.....and uh hes REALLY ripe smelling. I mean, I cant even enjoy my frappa mocha latte with light foam without wanting to vomit. Can you do something?

Yes sir we will send someone out right away

I may have called 911, but I wouldn't have stopped to help him. There are many risks in this sort of situation, and very few, if any, rewards.

Does that make me a coward? Maybe. It certainly doesn't make me brave.

KingCracker wrote:

Emperors Faithful wrote:Well, someone did call emergency services.

And I imagine the 911 call going something like
911 emergency how can I help you

Yea uh....theres this GUY laying around the sidewalk here.....and uh hes REALLY ripe smelling. I mean, I cant even enjoy my frappa mocha latte with light foam without wanting to vomit. Can you do something?

Yes sir we will send someone out right away

I'm sorry, do you think urban centers' emergency responders should place a high priority on responding to reports of vagrants just laying there?

Because if you do--I don't know what the hell to tell you, because emergency responders would be busy while your home is being robbed to a report of a bum laying on a park bench.

Kanluwen wrote:

KingCracker wrote:

Emperors Faithful wrote:Well, someone did call emergency services.

And I imagine the 911 call going something like
911 emergency how can I help you

Yea uh....theres this GUY laying around the sidewalk here.....and uh hes REALLY ripe smelling. I mean, I cant even enjoy my frappa mocha latte with light foam without wanting to vomit. Can you do something?

Yes sir we will send someone out right away

I'm sorry, do you think urban centers' emergency responders should place a high priority on responding to reports of vagrants just laying there?

Because if you do--I don't know what the hell to tell you, because emergency responders would be busy while your home is being robbed to a report of a bum laying on a park bench.

Again...the point is one individule turned the wounded man over,and though I don't "know" for a fact,I would hazzard to guess it would be obvious that the wounded man wasn't just "sleeping".
From that point,how hard is it to dial 911?
And why would the caller have to include the information the fallen man is "homeless",is it all that difficult to simply say "Hey,there is a man on the corner of "blah and blah" and he looks like he needs some help"...?

The person who examined him was the last one in the video. Could it be possible that he was the one who called?

SlaveToDorkness wrote:The person who examined him was the last one in the video. Could it be possible that he was the one who called?

Very possible,but why not stay with the victiam until some help arives?
Maybe I'm missing something...but I can't see just walking off while someone dies.

Would you stay with someone who is likely already dead, when you've got somewhere to be?

Kanluwen wrote:Would you stay with someone who is likely already dead, when you've got somewhere to be?

More than likely I would.
But more so,I would have tried to help had the victim still been alive,I have emegency first aid training (not a huge help,but better than nothing)and at least stayed until EMS arrived.
The idea that I have someplace else to be wouldn't be an issue to me.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I should add however,that my Mother,Grandmother,an Aunt,two Cousins,a Sister and my Brother are/were all Nurses,and I worked as a Tech at a State Hospital,so perhaps it's my upbringing/experince that would compell me to act in the manner I would.

@Kanlumwen
ummm... YEAH you stay with someone who may be dying... and anyone you discovered was dead that nobody had noticed yet too. I'm pretty sure your boss at that 'somewhere to be' would be pretty understanding given the circumstances. It isn't about being too busy to care, it's about bad priorities. Was your 'somewhere to be' a date down the street, a bus to catch, a job you suck at and already get crap from your boss from being late? Which 'somewhere to be' is worth more than someone's life?

Saw it on the news this morning.

Terrible, all of those people who didn't help should be prosecuted for being dumbasses.

Is it possible that the woman did call? Since she was safe (and if she wasn't aware of the extent of the injury), maybe the response wasn't as quick as it should have been.

The reason why no-one helped is because they would, more than likely, be sued for helping him.

Someone hasn't heard of Kitty Genovese? Fraz, your college didn't have Intro Psych as a requirement? Or were the cells holding that data some of the weak ones who couldn't survive the intervening decades of tequila?

This is a sad story, but as pointed out, crowd psychology (particularly diffusion of responsibility) makes it less likely for any given individual to step up and get involved. Wrex, that section you quoted doesn't say "psychologists jump the gun", it says that the actual facts of the case were exaggerated in the news, and that the exaggerated version is often still referred to in discussions of the "bystander effect". It's dramatic and illustrative, and tends to stick in people's minds. When I took Intro Psych 15 years ago, the textbook did point out that the original story was exaggerated in the news.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bystander_effect

The bystander effect was first demonstrated in the laboratory by John Darley and Bibb Latane in 1968.[2] These researchers launched a series of experiments that resulted in one of the strongest and most replicable effects in social psychology. In a typical experiment, the participant is either alone or among a group of other participants or confederates. An emergency situation is then staged — examples include smoke pouring from a vent in the room, a woman falling and becoming injured, a student having an epileptic seizure, etc. The researchers then measure how long it takes the participants to act, and whether or not they intervene at all. These experiments virtually always find that the presence of others inhibits helping, often by a large margin.[citation needed]

There are in fact many reasons why bystanders in groups fail to act in emergency situations, but social psychologists have focused most of their attention on two major factors. According to a basic principle of social influence, bystanders monitor the reactions of other people in an emergency situation to see if others think that it is necessary to intervene. Since everyone is doing exactly the same thing (nothing), they all conclude from the inaction of others that help is not needed. This is an example of pluralistic ignorance or social proof. The other major obstacle to intervention is known as diffusion of responsibility. This occurs when observers all assume that someone else is going to intervene and so each individual feels less responsible and refrains from doing anything.

Mannahnin wrote:Someone hasn't heard of Kitty Genovese? Fraz, your college didn't have Intro Psych as a requirement? Or were the cells holding that data some of the weak ones who couldn't survive the intervening decades of tequila?

This is a sad story, but as pointed out, crowd psychology (particularly diffusion of responsibility) makes it less likely for any given individual to step up and get involved. Wrex, that section you quoted doesn't say "psychologists jump the gun", it says that the actual facts of the case were exaggerated in the news, and that the exaggerated version is often still referred to in discussions of the "bystander effect". It's dramatic and illustrative, and tends to stick in people's minds. When I took Intro Psych 15 years ago, the textbook did point out that the original story was exaggerated in the news.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bystander_effect

The bystander effect was first demonstrated in the laboratory by John Darley and Bibb Latane in 1968.[2] These researchers launched a series of experiments that resulted in one of the strongest and most replicable effects in social psychology. In a typical experiment, the participant is either alone or among a group of other participants or confederates. An emergency situation is then staged — examples include smoke pouring from a vent in the room, a woman falling and becoming injured, a student having an epileptic seizure, etc. The researchers then measure how long it takes the participants to act, and whether or not they intervene at all. These experiments virtually always find that the presence of others inhibits helping, often by a large margin.[citation needed]

There are in fact many reasons why bystanders in groups fail to act in emergency situations, but social psychologists have focused most of their attention on two major factors. According to a basic principle of social influence, bystanders monitor the reactions of other people in an emergency situation to see if others think that it is necessary to intervene. Since everyone is doing exactly the same thing (nothing), they all conclude from the inaction of others that help is not needed. This is an example of pluralistic ignorance or social proof. The other major obstacle to intervention is known as diffusion of responsibility. This occurs when observers all assume that someone else is going to intervene and so each individual feels less responsible and refrains from doing anything.

You forget Raggie but when i went to college, intro to psychology involved how to outwit the grizzly as part of rights to manhood. You youngins and your new toys like writing, the wheel, speech...

Gwar! wrote:The reason why no-one helped is because they would, more than likely, be sued for helping him.

Rarely the case, but a very common feeble excuse. Normally threats of lawsuits occur if you try to apply medical help. Don't attempt first aid uncertificated, and never administer ANY medicine, the most you can do is place the needed pills in someone hand and place the hand next to the mouth. Unconscious people should never have medicine anyway so this covers all bases.



So far I have been pretty much on the money regarding my profiling of this case.

I hope they find the selfish bitch soon, chances are she is remaining silent to cooperate with her boyfriend or pimp who stabbed Tale-Yax. Chances are without good descriptions from the orignal witnesses this case will never be closed and that makes me more than upset.

People have asked off and on with this thread how can you tell and more importantly should we get involved.

I think we can, and on several occasions I have done so one way or another, with vartying degrees of success. I sympathise entirely with thwe man who examined the body he looked like he was helping, then ran away, and that does fit with the idea of someone making a late 911 call. Again blame the press for that, it makes far better media impact to say 'noone called' rather than 'someone eventually called' and it isn't exactly a lie to say the former.

Anyway if you see a woman in distress what are you to do. Frankly it involves observation and a bit of wisdom, you cant ber scum but you have to have an understanding of how scum think. After a short observation you should be able to tell the difference between a woman being mugged or sexually assaulted and a 'domestic' that has found its way outdoors. Interfere with the later and in some cases the woman might even turn on you. Also look at cases where two or more men are fighting with women present, that is exceptionally dangerous, the women might be screaming or shouting, but chances are beneath the surface they are egging on not trying to stop the conflict. This is part of our anciwent animal heritage by which a female presents herself to get tqwo males to compete or mating rights. It might have more complex causes and more sophisticated rules but essentially it comes down to the same animal instinct.

You have to have discernment. If this all sounds too incredulous to you then remember this, most violence against women is domestic in nature and most victims of domestic violence stay weith and even collude with their abusers. Battered partner syndrome also carries over to scum in the pubs and clubs, scum in the street and echoed by the 'relationship' between prostitute and pimp. yes it might be different, all cases are individual, but Tale-Yax is not the only man to fall victim trying to help a women who could help herself by choosing different relationships. I have seen this ugly side to humanity more often than I would like, its the price of being someone who doesn't sit around while others suffer.

Only once have I witnessed an attack, more on that later, but I have known women who have made bad choices tried to help and in one case escaped with my life and liberty only by being cautious and having foresight enough to see the trap set for me.

Mannahnin wrote:
This is a sad story, but as pointed out, crowd psychology (particularly diffusion of responsibility) makes it less likely for any given individual to step up and get involved. Wrex, that section you quoted doesn't say "psychologists jump the gun", it says that the actual facts of the case were exaggerated in the news, and that the exaggerated version is often still referred to in discussions of the "bystander effect". It's dramatic and illustrative, and tends to stick in people's minds. When I took Intro Psych 15 years ago, the textbook did point out that the original story was exaggerated in the news.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bystander_effect

Frankly I think this is a sanitisation. I have seen the bystander effect I remember once when a teenage girl was run over and screaming, she drew a crowd of 'zombies' and those trying to help her were getting increasingly agitated to them. I was a child at the time and could feel the pull, but could see that it was wrong and carried on walking. I can still feel the pull every time I find an accident, and to some extent I accommodate that by helping out. See an accident, approach and ask if help can be given or help myself if noone else does. I want to do that, if I cannot help I walk away swiftly because I feel the human animal in me too.

However in some cases it gets much darker, people taking a very active perverse glee at someones suffering, normally if the victim is female and also based heavily on the group culture of the bystanders. Not all cultures are the same, I see very strong ethnic differences at how people watch stuff. Some people stand in silent shock and do nothing, those who come from other backgrounds where life is cheaper often stand wide eyed with a perverse joy, its disturbing to witness this, the human animal just below the surface and how we are brought up and which tribe we come from really does effect the face of that animal.


If you really want to know about this phenomena dont ask the psychologists ask soldiers who have gone to former Yugoslavia, or central Africa, or better yet read accounts of the Roman Ludi Magni. This will tell you all you need to know and more about the nature of the human beings latent desire to gloat over the suffering of others. What I see sometimes more clearly mimiced the description of crowd antics at the Roman games and goes beyond any clinical 'bystander effect'.

dogma wrote:I may have called 911, but I wouldn't have stopped to help him. There are many risks in this sort of situation, and very few, if any, rewards.

Does that make me a coward? Maybe. It certainly doesn't make me brave.

I will tell you of an incident I witnessed back in Hackney in 1990. Then you can judge me on what I did.

I walked on by.

It was just after eleven and I was walking home through a not very nice part of east London where I was living as a student. My route was long and I saw all sorts of things, but in all my time was never subjected to any danger or saw anything bad. perhaps because I am a big guy, perhaps because I am generally very unobservant. anyway this one evning I saw the scuffle ahead very 'late' it was obvious and only fifty yeards ahead of me when I first noticed, and it was a womans scream for help that got my attention.

as I approached I could see three large black men by the curb, one holding on to a struggling pretty white blonde teenage woman in light clothing. She was trying to pull away and was dangling on the arm of this huge fellow. Her assailants looked fairly impassive. Near the streetside was a semi circle of Islamics aged about 20-30, more than enough of them to stop this if they wanted to, and two more in the Kebab shop that lit the whole scene. They had this perverse expression and were drinking it in wide eyed, it was the most perverse and distressing sight I have ever seen.
I remember help calls. 'Someone help me please!' comes to mind, and repeated cries of 'Help!' and 'Let me go!'.

As I approached I wanted to help but could see that I would get no help, the three active men had thick padded jackets and looked powerful, I doubt i could take on any of them, i may be big but have never been a brawler and these guys looked hardened; the bystanders were an unknown quantity all I could tell was that they would not back up me if any choices were made. So I took a 'tactical decision' I walked straight through the incident without turning around looking down or looking back. I walked right through the semi-circle of bystanders and past her , close enough to touch her,and she called out for help and screamed again. Then turned the corner. I made it look like I didn't care.

As soon as I was around the corner (not heading where I wanted to go) I ran towards the only place of any activity, excepting the scum Kebab shop, which was a pub. I should have known that running to the pub would have brought me back into LOS, but I was trying to do what I could. The pub had light on and people inside and I knocked on the door and called for help through the lettersbox. It was after closing time and what is known as a 'shut in' by which drinking can continue after hours so long as noone new enters the premesis and no drinks are paid for. This rule does not prescribe helping people in emergencies but noone wanted to move anyway. With every attempt to knock on the doors or windows or ask for someone to call the police I got nothing but calls to go away, or words to that effect. Eventually someone was 'helpful' enough to tell me where a payphone was. So I ran down another street to look for it, found it and called the police.

The police responded quickly but time was off the essence I had to get back to the scene to observe, the scum would scatter when the sirens were heard and I wanted to be able to give good info on where the girl was if I was to be of any help to her. When I got back to the kebab shop the street was empty, no girl, no attackers and only two or three people milling about further down and I had no idea if they were witnesses not being good with faces. However that wasn't a problem, I had accounted for my lack of descriptive ability and my unwillingness to study the faces of the assailants in any detail because the kebab shop was open for business. There were people who clearly saw everything and would know which direction the girl was taken .

I went inside, I remember the two staff well I remember their sicko expressions and boggle eyed stares from earlier (and I will never forget then) and one of them turned to me with a greasy serve-the-customer smile. I asked him where the girl was and what happened. The smile died on his face ' Why the f**k do you care you walked on by' he said with an accusatory look. I cannot remember being more shocked by such blatant hypocrasy but kept my cool 'But I ran to call the police!' I exclaimed. The look on this mans face got even more contemptuous and he nodded his nose towards the door to indicate I was to leave the shop. I needed no encouragement to get out, a short while after the police car arrived. Two cops got out and I approached them.

Like I said I am not very observant and could give no useful descriptions, but could point of that the kebab shop staff saw everything. a policeman ushered me into the car and we drove off trying to find her. None of the locals on the street that night were questioned and when I asked about talking to the kebab shop owners the policeman took one look at them and replied. 'Don't bother, they wouldn't have seen anything.' I got no impression the policemen were trying to shirk their job, just that the only way to find her was a rapid search of the streets. We drove around stopping and starting at high speeds, but never did find the girl. The policemen did not condemn me for walking past her and I have never had any shame over what I did.
After a fruitless search the policemen drove me partway home, I know nothing more and I never knew what happened to her. In hindsight I think the three men cleared away if and when someone noticed me running for the pub. I wanted to make out I did not care at all, and running as fast as I could could mean only one thing. I don't know if I could have saved her had I stayed and didn't discuss this with the officers, but on the way home one of the policemen did remark to me that I was the only caller to have reported the incident.

Nasty stuff.
It's always difficult to know what you yourself would do in a situatiuon like this.

But knowing myself i would probably have to intervene. Probably get hurt trying.

Orlanth you did what you were supposed to do, call the cops and observe.

dogma wrote:I may have called 911, but I wouldn't have stopped to help him. There are many risks in this sort of situation, and very few, if any, rewards.

Does that make me a coward? Maybe. It certainly doesn't make me brave.

Least your honest Dogma..

Im pretty brave, im also a heartless bastard when it comes to homeless people. If i saw the bloke like that slumped on the floor id probably just presume he had gak himself or something and i admit i would probably just walk on by. I might even tut to myself and say "look at that fething smelly bum!"

Its harsh to slag everyone off so much and get on your high horse, maybe if you actually saw the whole event sure, but 99% of the people will have just seen what they thought was your average pissed up hobo slumped on the street and cracked on with their day. I ignore them as much as possible in my general life, but i admit it, im a selfish prick.

^^

That is why I like you Matty.....in the most heterosexual of ways of course.

Well a lot of homeless people I know would have helped you Matt if you were in such a situation, while a lot of 'normal' people would be too scared to get involved. So yeah I'll ride my high horse thank you very much. Having been there, done that lifestyle for a while I can say confidently that you shouldn't stereotype the homeless 'bum'.

mattyrm wrote:
Least your honest Dogma..

Im pretty brave, im also a heartless bastard when it comes to homeless people. If i saw the bloke like that slumped on the floor id probably just presume he had gak himself or something and i admit i would probably just walk on by. I might even tut to myself and say "look at that fething smelly bum!"

Its harsh to slag everyone off so much and get on your high horse, maybe if you actually saw the whole event sure, but 99% of the people will have just seen what they thought was your average pissed up hobo slumped on the street and cracked on with their day. I ignore them as much as possible in my general life, but i admit it, im a selfish prick.

Exactly, its a contextual thing. I may have noticed that the guy was bleeding, but I wouldn't have cared because he is no more relevant to me, on a scale of emotional significance, than a man dieing alone in Darfur. For me it isn't an issue of the crowd influencing my behavior, as I have ungodly amounts of training in how to escape that sort of thing.

The issue for me is that, because I don't care, I have no incentive (or ability, really) to help directly and a great deal of incentive to go about my business.

Interestingly, I generally give beggars money. Both because I don't need all of mine, and because it angers many of my peers.

I do care, but through several years work with homeless populations, am somewhat jaded. If I could see the blood I'd have helped. But if I simply saw a homeless guy lying on the sidewalk, I might not pay close enough attention to notice.