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Chaos Dreds need a way to deep strike.

CSM Should be able to either Deep Strike Via Dreadclaws (just give them the same/similar rules for Drop pods) or enter from the warp. (Something like a webway portal)

Daemons should function EXACTALLY like Inquix allies. There is no reason why they don't currently. ("But the daemons are too important to be with petty CSM" how can you not say the same about Daemonhunters?)

Things that need Legion Specifics

Dreds, Lords, Sorcerers(non in Khorne), Havocks, Possesed, Chosen (Actually, Chosen should just be completely redone to be more like Honor Guard, IMO) Bikers.

They should get a new FA choice that would also have the choice to be legion specific (and put the unit on the various mounts of chaos)

Remove the SLDs and SGDs (from being purchasable as a base unit in CSM). Spawn can be purchased with Sorcerer/DPs as a seperate unit not taking force org but limited to X per Y (Y being the number of Sorcerers/DPs taken)

Give LRs back our Power of the machine spirit (It was called something else before, like "Enraged engine" IIRC)

MINOR legion specific LR varients (like, a Khorn/Slaanesh, not one for each)

Up the Xport capacity of LRs


Changes to the marks (to make them less boring, yet still 5th edition 'streamlined')

MoT should increase the invul save by +2 instead of +1 (making it the equive to storm shields on termis, for more points obviously). Sorcerers/DPs with MoT may take/use an additional psychic power each turn and never roll more then 2d6 for psychic tests.

MoK should be +1 Attack Melee weapons have "Master Crafted" special rule. Lords/DPs with MoK have the "Preferred Enemy" special rule

MoN should be +1 Toughness (modified) Melee attacks have the "Poisoned Weapons" special rule (in addition to their other rules). Lords/Sorcerers with MoN also have FNP.

MoS Should be +1 Initiative and the USR "Fleet". Lords/Sorcerers/DPs with the MoS also have a 12" assault range and gain an additional +1 Initiative.

Bring back doomrider, change up the Psychic spell list some and adjust the Point costs/Stat lines/ wargear to be more appropriate for 5th edition (this would be minor)

but thats just my take on it...

Something cool and guaranteed not to be stolen by the loyalists.. like traits.. that was cool, till everyone had it.

Give us some sort of cheap throw-away cultist unit, rework the spells and marks (especially liking the way Daemon Archon Ren has them), make possessed and dreads less random, legion specific rules, and make spawns useful.

Maybe make the Spawns have a rule called Mass of Flesh, where they have to be a unit with a sorceror, forces them to roll 1d6 for movement, but all wounds are allocated to the Spawn before the sorcerers.

As for spells, it is in my (very humble) opinion that most, if not all spells should be of support nature. Warptime should stay, and they should give us something along the lines of teleporting a unit of ours 12 inches if the power passes. Doombolt should stay, it's iconic.

What do I want for the next Chaos codex?

Sorry for blatant advertising, but this: http://www.scribd.com/doc/29523383/Chaos-Codex-Eternal-Slaves-of-Chaos-Simplified

I want actual chaos attributes and mutations. Stuff that made Chaos, y'know, CHAOS. Not this lame gak that is currently the codex.

How about more options? The current 'chaos' codex has none of that. Yes it was hit in the nuts with a sledgehammer by Jervisification but come on! The new Blud Angles codex has a ton more gak than we do. I'm sorry but that's just pathetic.

Oh yeah, and bring back Animosity.

Vladsimpaler wrote:What do I want for the next Chaos codex?

Sorry for blatant advertising, but this: http://www.scribd.com/doc/29523383/Chaos-Codex-Eternal-Slaves-of-Chaos-Simplified

I want actual chaos attributes and mutations. Stuff that made Chaos, y'know, CHAOS. Not this lame gak that is currently the codex.

How about more options? The current 'chaos' codex has none of that. Yes it was hit in the nuts with a sledgehammer by Jervisification but come on! The new Blud Angles codex has a ton more gak than we do. I'm sorry but that's just pathetic.

Oh yeah, and bring back Animosity.

Yeah, I just feel I have to comment on this:

WE ARE NOT ORKS! We should not have to roll for animosity, our units should not try to kill eachother, though I will agree that a IC with the MoK should not be able to join a unit with MoS.

Slarg232 wrote:

Vladsimpaler wrote:What do I want for the next Chaos codex?

Sorry for blatant advertising, but this: http://www.scribd.com/doc/29523383/Chaos-Codex-Eternal-Slaves-of-Chaos-Simplified

I want actual chaos attributes and mutations. Stuff that made Chaos, y'know, CHAOS. Not this lame gak that is currently the codex.

How about more options? The current 'chaos' codex has none of that. Yes it was hit in the nuts with a sledgehammer by Jervisification but come on! The new Blud Angles codex has a ton more gak than we do. I'm sorry but that's just pathetic.

Oh yeah, and bring back Animosity.

Yeah, I just feel I have to comment on this:

WE ARE NOT ORKS! We should not have to roll for animosity, our units should not try to kill eachother, though I will agree that a IC with the MoK should not be able to join a unit with MoS.

Really? You don't think that if a Champion of Khorne sees a Champion of Slaanesh, they're not going to try and duke it out? Their respective gods HATE eachother. Want to destroy them. So on, and so forth.

Slarg232 wrote:

Vladsimpaler wrote:
Oh yeah, and bring back Animosity.

, though I will agree that a IC with the MoK should not be able to join a unit with MoS.

What you guys are forgetting is that we are not Chaos Daemons, but Chaos Space Marines,

Chaos Daemons have Daemonic Rivalry, which basically does just what you are proposing (with the IC thing).

Chaos Daemons are manifestations of their patron gods, and as such, feel the bitter rivalry of the Great Games.

Chaos Space Marines do not feel this, if they did, the Horus Heresy, and the Black Legion/Word Bearers/Chaos Undivided, would have never existed.

Daemon-Archon Ren wrote:
Chaos Daemons are manifestations of their patron gods, and as such, feel the bitter rivalry of the Great Games.

Sorry, but what the feth is the Great Game? Is this new background?

I would like to see the return of an idea or two from the 3rd ed Chaos codex - yes, 3rd ed, not 3.5!

- Taking a mark on a lord would dictate which marked troops you could take. For instance, a lord with Mark of Nurgle would let you take Plague Marines as troops, while a lord with any other mark would take them as elites.

- Cult troops would be LD10, but taking them in their sacred numbers would make them fearless.

- Dreadclaw drop pods, obviously.

- Lash of Submission is gone without a trace.

- You could still take lesser and greater daemons, but could give them marks like anything else. I like the idea of letting the actual Chaos Daemons codex giving them wacky rules, but for the sake of the Chaos Marines codex, it would be good to give them a little more flavor.

- Marks aren't taken as icons. In other words, just because a guy carrying the rotting stick gets killed, the squad doesn't forget they're dedicated to Nurgle.

- Simple rules for cultists. Just make them like conscripts in the IG codex but with close combat weapons and laspistols. Let them also take a mark, and be led by an aspiring champion as per a regular squad of Chaos Marines.

Anyway, that's just my 2 cents on the matter.

Vladsimpaler wrote:

Daemon-Archon Ren wrote:
Chaos Daemons are manifestations of their patron gods, and as such, feel the bitter rivalry of the Great Games.

Sorry, but what the feth is the Great Game? Is this new background?

It's ye olde fluff. The Great Game of all four Chaos Gods playing against eachother vying for total domination for all eternity.

Khorne HATES Slaanesh, Tzeentch HATES Nurgle and vice versa.

Vladsimpaler wrote:

Slarg232 wrote:

Vladsimpaler wrote:What do I want for the next Chaos codex?

Sorry for blatant advertising, but this: http://www.scribd.com/doc/29523383/Chaos-Codex-Eternal-Slaves-of-Chaos-Simplified

I want actual chaos attributes and mutations. Stuff that made Chaos, y'know, CHAOS. Not this lame gak that is currently the codex.

How about more options? The current 'chaos' codex has none of that. Yes it was hit in the nuts with a sledgehammer by Jervisification but come on! The new Blud Angles codex has a ton more gak than we do. I'm sorry but that's just pathetic.

Oh yeah, and bring back Animosity.

Yeah, I just feel I have to comment on this:

WE ARE NOT ORKS! We should not have to roll for animosity, our units should not try to kill eachother, though I will agree that a IC with the MoK should not be able to join a unit with MoS.

Really? You don't think that if a Champion of Khorne sees a Champion of Slaanesh, they're not going to try and duke it out? Their respective gods HATE eachother. Want to destroy them. So on, and so forth.

Oh they would, but I would hope that the rules would reflect that they are able to put their differences aside for the few seconds it takes to beat the gak out of whatever they are fighting in the first place first.

Daemon-Archon Ren wrote:

Slarg232 wrote:

Vladsimpaler wrote:
Oh yeah, and bring back Animosity.

, though I will agree that a IC with the MoK should not be able to join a unit with MoS.

What you guys are forgetting is that we are not Chaos Daemons, but Chaos Space Marines,

Chaos Daemons have Daemonic Rivalry, which basically does just what you are proposing (with the IC thing).

Chaos Daemons are manifestations of their patron gods, and as such, feel the bitter rivalry of the Great Games.

Chaos Space Marines do not feel this, if they did, the Horus Heresy, and the Black Legion/Word Bearers/Chaos Undivided, would have never existed.

I was thinking more of the fact that it was Khorne and Slaanesh, who are absolute rivals, and then Nurgle and Tzeentch. You should still be able to have a Khorne IC with a unit of plague marines, but not that Khorne guy with a unit of Noise Marines. Though I wouldn't mind no restrictions.

Nitros14 wrote:

Vladsimpaler wrote:

Daemon-Archon Ren wrote:
Chaos Daemons are manifestations of their patron gods, and as such, feel the bitter rivalry of the Great Games.

Sorry, but what the feth is the Great Game? Is this new background?

It's ye olde fluff. The Great Game of all four Chaos Gods playing against eachother vying for total domination for all eternity.

Khorne HATES Slaanesh, Tzeentch HATES Nurgle and vice versa.

No, I know about Khorne hating Slaanesh and Tzeentch hating Nurgle and vice versa. That's been there since the beginning.

But I've never heard of the 'Great Game'. It sounds stupid so it must be new background.

@ Slarg232- Them putting aside their differences is them passing their LD test and going on as normal. And with such high LD, they will be fine a good amount of the time.

Bloodfrenzy187 wrote:Is there a new codex announced or something or is this a what if type of thread?

It's a what-if thread. But, given Chaos' popularity, they're almost certain to see a codex eventually.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Bloodfrenzy187 wrote:Is there a new codex announced or something or is this a what if type of thread?

It's a what-if thread. But, given Chaos' popularity, they're almost certain to see a codex eventually.

Animosity would be terrible..

Look at chaos dreads.. how many people use them..

Vladsimpaler wrote:

Nitros14 wrote:

Vladsimpaler wrote:

Daemon-Archon Ren wrote:
Chaos Daemons are manifestations of their patron gods, and as such, feel the bitter rivalry of the Great Games.

Sorry, but what the feth is the Great Game? Is this new background?

It's ye olde fluff. The Great Game of all four Chaos Gods playing against eachother vying for total domination for all eternity.

Khorne HATES Slaanesh, Tzeentch HATES Nurgle and vice versa.

No, I know about Khorne hating Slaanesh and Tzeentch hating Nurgle and vice versa. That's been there since the beginning.

But I've never heard of the 'Great Game'. It sounds stupid so it must be new background.

@ Slarg232- Them putting aside their differences is them passing their LD test and going on as normal. And with such high LD, they will be fine a good amount of the time.

The Great Game is just them trying to outmanouver (sorry) eachother, kinda like chess. Khorne is the strongest, Tzeentch plays dirty, Nurgle fluctuates, and Slaanesh is the weakest but is slowly becoming the most powerful (because he is the God of Excess, and the other gods all embody different forms of excess). To my knowledge, Khorne is the only one to ever have beaten all three of the others at the same time.

But still, We are not Orks, and as such our units should remain in our total undivided control through out the match. They could buff everything else about us, but if they make it where we start attacking our own guys, that is such a nerf (and kick in the teeth) it isn't funny.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Shaman wrote:Animosity would be terrible..

Look at chaos dreads.. how many people use them..

Exactly. I never take dreads, too much of a risk to kill my own units.

Night lords... thats all I want

I think the chaosiness is definitely missing from the current codex, and since it was my purchase of the original 2nd ed codex (still got it somewhere, GOD I love that book) that got me into 40K, I think there are definite elements that could be improved.

Now of course, you need a redressing of points values etc thanks to the silly stuff loyalist marines get now. And I really like the suggestion of allies from the Daemon army instead of the generic daemonic forces available in the codex.

It is very important to keep a solid difference between normal marines and chaos marines, and I think one good way to do that would be to bring out more of daily life in the eye of terror. My image of CSM has always been that they are just more hardcore, more badass than normal marines. They're 10 millenia veterans, and they should be appropriately scary as a result.

Chosen should have 2 attacks, as someone else said, but perhaps you should be able to buy Veteran squads as well. The chosen are not just vets, but aspiring champions. Vets should be available as an elites choice, or maybe as troops if your lord has the Undivided mark (similar to how marked lords used to give you Cult units as troops, like someone else noticed). Vet squads should be similar to back in 2nd ed, with up to 2 heavy or special weapons, infiltrate, and reduced numbers (3-5). Maybe even better stats? I loved my veterans back in the day

Also, the fact that the CSM's aren't extinct yet despite 10K years of fighting means they have to be getting new recruits. Perhaps a CSM equivalent of blood claws, in huge units, maybe even with only carapace armour until they've proved themselves? That would make a lot of sense.

The whole streamlined 5th ed malarky is good, perhaps another way to reflect the uberskills of CSM's would just be to allow every CSM squad to purchase certain USR's? Only 1 per squad, and only certain ones allowed for certain units, but still that'd allow a lot of fun and flexibility that is currently lacking.

Mutation-wise, I think possessed marines pretty much cover it. I've never played with them, so I don't know how rubbish they are under the current system, but I think they nicely cover a multitude of sins, so mutant marines can easily be bundled in under their rules.

Definitely mobility and durability is something currently lacking in the CSM army.

And cult terminators rocked, they should totally come back. I still get a little shiver when I see that Mark Gibbons KBT illustration in 2nd ed Codex Chaos

So have the veterans be tough and the newbies be probably less than normal marines. Like Scouts in power armor.

Slarg232 wrote:

Vladsimpaler wrote:

Nitros14 wrote:

Vladsimpaler wrote:

Daemon-Archon Ren wrote:
Chaos Daemons are manifestations of their patron gods, and as such, feel the bitter rivalry of the Great Games.

Sorry, but what the feth is the Great Game? Is this new background?

It's ye olde fluff. The Great Game of all four Chaos Gods playing against eachother vying for total domination for all eternity.

Khorne HATES Slaanesh, Tzeentch HATES Nurgle and vice versa.

No, I know about Khorne hating Slaanesh and Tzeentch hating Nurgle and vice versa. That's been there since the beginning.

But I've never heard of the 'Great Game'. It sounds stupid so it must be new background.

The Great Game is just them trying to outmanouver (sorry) eachother, kinda like chess. Khorne is the strongest, Tzeentch plays dirty, Nurgle fluctuates, and Slaanesh is the weakest but is slowly becoming the most powerful (because he is the God of Excess, and the other gods all embody different forms of excess). To my knowledge, Khorne is the only one to ever have beaten all three of the others at the same time.

If you don't know what the Great Game is, I would consider reading Codex: Chaos Daemons, Liber Chaotica, and a TON of other Chaos fluff...

To put it in a definition, Lexicanum states

The Great Game is the constant struggle for dominance between the Chaos Gods. The Warp is not only home to the Gods, but it is also their battlefield. No god can ever win the Great Game, for if all other Warp Powers were obliterated, the Warp would become a still, unmoving mass and Chaos would no longer exist. So it is an Eternal Conflict. The Full attention of the God is concentrated on the Great Game, a fraction of their attention will very rarely be fixed on the mortal realm but only for an instant as the Great game is more important. The Chaos Gods will also unite rarely roughly every few thousand years, if there is need to do so (to thwart a threat or to take advantage of an occurrence). The rise of the Emperor was such a time, the Warp Gods engineered the wars of the Horus Heresy to bring about his downfall, distracting them for an instant from the Great game. The Great Conflict which is played out amongst the gods is also mirrored by their followers and worshippers in the material realm. This is what the Daemon-Primarchs and other Great Chaos Champions are occupied with, fighting for the supremacy of their god, with untold power at their fingertips.

there are other books on Chaos besides Codex: Chaos Space Marines (3rd edition 2nd Print) IIRC the Great Game is mentioned in the Realm of Chaos (1988, 1990) sourcebooks, so I don't think that would be considered New...

The reason you don't hear about it much in CSM books is because CSM DON'T PLAY A (significant) PART IN THE GREAT GAME (other then Daemon-Primarchs). The rivalry portion (aka Khorne hates slaanesh etc) was only part of the 2nd Print of the 3rd Edition dex to justify all those Daemons you could take with you, since the daemons walked out, so did any reason to mention the rivalry... A Black Crusade Tzeentch Sorcerer and a Black Crusade Nurgle Lord share as much animosity as a Space Wolf Rune Priest and a Salamander Devestator, aka NONE.

Melissia wrote:So have the veterans be tough and the newbies be probably less than normal marines. Like Scouts in power armor.

I'd be down with this, honestly. Drop the SM statline completely, and have the troops split between scouts/blood claws and veterans, who I guess would have improved initiative/ws/bs or something to show how balls to the wall badass they are.

I don't want a new CSM codex, per se. I want three books covering Chaos. If I'm in charge of the studio...

1) Codex Chaos: Smaller numbers of *elite* badboy CSMs (which may be marked, but not full-on cult) leading Traitor IG and vehicles and various gribblies. Generic daemons only (although maybe with marks allowed). Mix-and-matchy, patchwork old school chaos.

2) Codex Ruinous Powers: Covering armies devoted to one of the big 4. Cult marines, cultists, power-specific wargear and equipment, aligned daemons (although maybe only the basic infantry for each power -- Bletters, Pbearers, etc.). Aligned armies like in CSM v3.5, but with some nods to more flexibility.

3) Codex Daemonworlds: Full daemonic armies, but with added options for mutants (daemonworlds are supposed to be teeming with them) and more daemonic engines. An appendix with optional rules for fighting on daemonworlds tops it off.

Pure renegades, Alpha Legion and Word Bearers are well-served by #1. Iron Warriors probably aren't a bad fit in #1 either since they'd have some access to selected IG siege vehicles, etc. WE, DG, EC and TS as well as other devoted homebrews are covered in #2. Daemons get covered in #3, but gain more unit and playstyle options.

Night Lords aren't an obvious fit, although they might work in #1 depending on the details there. Black Legion likely presents the biggest problem. Letting them mix-and-match within #2 would be the most obvious solution, but opening that door probably just creates a zillion balance issues. Bit of a stumbling block, but there's probably a decent answer.

This would break some eggs, but I think it'd be a whole lot more interesting.

At least it would give them SOMETHING other than being simply "angry at my dad" marines.

They'd still be that mind you, but it'd be nice if they had MORE different.


edit: Also, I will never, EVER support Marines getting YET ANOTHER codex. I don't even support loyalist Marines getting six codices, nevermind CSMs...

To be fair, only one of those is really a CSM codex. CC would treat them effectively like Stormtroopers in C:WH.

gorgon wrote:I don't want a new CSM codex, per se. I want three books covering Chaos. If I'm in charge of the studio...

1) Codex Chaos: Smaller numbers of *elite* badboy CSMs (which may be marked, but not full-on cult) leading Traitor IG and vehicles and various gribblies. Generic daemons only (although maybe with marks allowed). Mix-and-matchy, patchwork old school chaos.

2) Codex Ruinous Powers: Covering armies devoted to one of the big 4. Cult marines, cultists, power-specific wargear and equipment, aligned daemons (although maybe only the basic infantry for each power -- Bletters, Pbearers, etc.). Aligned armies like in CSM v3.5, but with some nods to more flexibility.

3) Codex Daemonworlds: Full daemonic armies, but with added options for mutants (daemonworlds are supposed to be teeming with them) and more daemonic engines. An appendix with optional rules for fighting on daemonworlds tops it off.

Pure renegades, Alpha Legion and Word Bearers are well-served by #1. Iron Warriors probably aren't a bad fit in #1 either since they'd have some access to selected IG siege vehicles, etc. WE, DG, EC and TS as well as other devoted homebrews are covered in #2. Daemons get covered in #3, but gain more unit and playstyle options.

Night Lords aren't an obvious fit, although they might work in #1 depending on the details there. Black Legion likely presents the biggest problem. Letting them mix-and-match within #2 would be the most obvious solution, but opening that door probably just creates a zillion balance issues. Bit of a stumbling block, but there's probably a decent answer.

This would break some eggs, but I think it'd be a whole lot more interesting.

I don't think that would work, for the fact that it does indeed break a few eggs. They need to keep all the Marines together, so that players who have 500 some marines aren't forced to buy 3 codices or are forced to not use half of their models.

As to the three codices, I think they will go C:CSM, Caemons, and C:Lost and the Damned. Hopefully we get to see an evil version of the Sisters, too.

If they are cutting Daemons from the CSM, that (essentially) opens up one troop choice and one HQ choice that they could add in. Assuming they didn't want to get all wiled and wooly with completely revamping the armies units.

My hopes:
Cultists. Little ground pounders that infiltrate and are more assault oriented. Maybe make them like DoW2's Cultists, where they can blow themselves up in combat. Might get some flak for that, what with all the terrorists running around today, but it would be cool

and a Dark Mechanist: Basically just a techpriest that didn't become and obliterator (Or even, an obliterator that can repair things). I always thought that it was stupid that the Imperium armies are the only ones that can repair things during the game.

WARBOSS TZOO wrote:

Melissia wrote:So have the veterans be tough and the newbies be probably less than normal marines. Like Scouts in power armor.

I'd be down with this, honestly. Drop the SM statline completely, and have the troops split between scouts/blood claws and veterans, who I guess would have improved initiative/ws/bs or something to show how balls to the wall badass they are.

I like the idea of CSM vets with WS/BS/I 5. But that's because I started out in 2nd ed or maybe just infiltrate, stealth and counter attack? that would make em pretty handy.

on the great game topic, it dates back to the realm of chaos books back in the eighties, and was also detailed in the aforementioned codex chaos. Daemon World armies originally existed only to fight the troops of the other gods, for their amusement. The gods would gamble planets on particular champions etc.

@ slarg:
maybe instead of a Dark Mechanist, wretches like in DoW?

Captain Roderick wrote:

WARBOSS TZOO wrote:

Melissia wrote:So have the veterans be tough and the newbies be probably less than normal marines. Like Scouts in power armor.

I'd be down with this, honestly. Drop the SM statline completely, and have the troops split between scouts/blood claws and veterans, who I guess would have improved initiative/ws/bs or something to show how balls to the wall badass they are.

I like the idea of CSM vets with WS/BS/I 5. But that's because I started out in 2nd ed or maybe just infiltrate, stealth and counter attack? that would make em pretty handy.

on the great game topic, it dates back to the realm of chaos books back in the eighties, and was also detailed in the aforementioned codex chaos. Daemon World armies originally existed only to fight the troops of the other gods, for their amusement. The gods would gamble planets on particular champions etc.

@ slarg:
maybe instead of a Dark Mechanist, wretches like in DoW?

The Wretch would be an awesome model, yeah.

As for the vets, does Stealth give the +1 Cover save? Don't have my rulebook handy.

I forgot to mention I think the focus in the HQ department should be chaos lords.. They should be powerful and expensive. They should get something for selling their souls to Evil gods.. And this stuff should be comparable if not better then the loyalist assualty marine chapters(SW, BA, BT) equivalent.

Chaos Lords should be the deadliest man-sized model in the game tbqh.

IE, "I want everything they have, but better!"

I don't think that'll go over well.

WARBOSS TZOO wrote:Chaos Lords should be the deadliest man-sized model in the game tbqh.

I wont say no to that notion.