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@pipboy101 : only in your mind is pro-painter and professional painter different designations. There is no governing board that says pro-painted is a level of quality that has to meet certain requirements, in fact if you check the most common usage is on ebay to describe models that do not have a superior level of painting.

That was sort of my point, people (yourself included) come up with a personal definition of pro paint as some arbitrarily high standard, and then are disappointed when a model described as such doesn't meet your expectations. pro paint means nothing more than painted for money, and makes no claim as to skill level.

People who think propainted describes a certain standard have made a logical leap that because you are a professional at something, you are better at it than someone who is not. While sometimes this is true the more experienced you get the more you realize this is not the case.

۞ Jack ۞ wrote:Also, the price tells a story too

Victoria lamb sold one of her GD units on there (GK termies and an inq. i think)
From last check it was around $1,500.
That still had a long time left on it, i didnt check back, but someone did make a thread on here i believe.

True, very true.


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asmith wrote:@pipboy101 : only in your mind is pro-painter and professional painter different designations. There is no governing board that says pro-painted is a level of quality that has to meet certain requirements, in fact if you check the most common usage is on ebay to describe models that do not have a superior level of painting.

That was sort of my point, people (yourself included) come up with a personal definition of pro paint as some arbitrarily high standard, and then are disappointed when a model described as such doesn't meet your expectations. pro paint means nothing more than painted for money, and makes no claim as to skill level.

People who think propainted describes a certain standard have made a logical leap that because you are a professional at something, you are better at it than someone who is not. While sometimes this is true the more experienced you get the more you realize this is not the case.

I can call myself a professional painter if I take money for just giving people base coat and foundation paints covered with Devlin Mud. So by your view point I can call my work pro-paint because I take money. That would be classified as by most people here as false advertising.

it would only be false advertising because the painting was not complete. If you said "professionally base coated" I don't think anyone would have a problem with that.

asmith wrote:it would only be false advertising because the painting was not complete. If you said "professionally base coated" I don't think anyone would have a problem with that.

Here is what i think on the matter...

For someone to be "professional painter" aka making money off selling their service , i would atleast think
some where along the line , 2 thing would have happened

1) It has to be some what decent quality that someone will actually pay for the service

2) They would have improved hence giving better quality then "professionally base coated"

The model in question , is no way in its standard able to fit with those 2 points i listed.

Hence no matter how its worded , its not professional.

asmith wrote:it would only be false advertising because the painting was not complete. If you said "professionally base coated" I don't think anyone would have a problem with that.

So you would be mad if I put Pro-Paint on a model and what you paid for and recieved the quality as I discribed above. But by your idea of Pro-Paint means that I would get away with taking your money for . There is an unwritten standard among most of gaming community on what is pro-paint and what is professional.

My favorite thing about is 4 days in, and still no one has bid on it. Coincidence? I think not.

I think the seller was putting the 'one born every minute' theory into practice. This is a theory based on the fact that there is one moron born every minute so therefore at least one of them will see your listing and be stupid enough to buy it.

This is how you can put a 5 pound note on Ebay and sell it for 6 pounds, as the ratio of morons to normal people is about 1:100, the amount of hits your listing gets will mean at least one moron sees your post. (It should be noted that Ebay has a greater than average ratio of morons to normal people due to the amount of idiots with a credit card, too much time, and too much money to do anything else with.)

Quite a useful theory when selling things on Ebay, I believe.

I can see that fool running into his FLGS with it, "LOOK! This won a GD!" (crickets chirping in the background)

The auction ended without a single bid, which was fair I think.

I'm disappointed in humanity. Someone was actually NOT dumb enough to buy that.

I guess sometimes I don't give humans enough credit.....Nah, what am I saying?

There was one golden daemon nids i know of, and i know it sure aint that on ebay!

http://www.dakkadakka.com/gallery/65029-Golden%20Demon%20Tyranid%20Carnifex.html



Oh.... Maybe this is the model the guy was 'referencing' to.



http://www.dakkadakka.com/core/gallery-viewimage.jsp?i=65035&m=2&w=800

asmith wrote:it would only be false advertising because the painting was not complete.

your having a and moan about us using personal definitions for 'pro-painted' but your using a personal definition of 'a finished model' , if i basecoat and wash a model and i think it's finished then it's finished so it's not false advertising because by real definition it's been painted because it has paint on it.

Professional:
a person who engages in an activity with great competence.
A skilled practitioner; an expert.

thus a pro-painted model is a model painted by someone who is a professional and it's a skilled painter.

pro-painter/master painted should mean it would not look like a joke if seen in white dwarf. Table top quality is NOT pro-painted, I don't give a gak if Picasso did it.

If details are not painted in, using established techniques (gems for example), highlighting only consists of a thick chunk of paint along the edge, then it is not Pro-painted. It's not like the standards are un-known, our community regularly rates stuff on CoolMini and other sites, it should be able to rate at least a 7-8 in my mind.

Pipboy101 wrote:So you would be mad if I put Pro-Paint on a model and what you paid for and recieved the quality as I discribed above. But by your idea of Pro-Paint means that I would get away with taking your money for . There is an unwritten standard among most of gaming community on what is pro-paint and what is professional.

I don't think there is any such standard at all. What do you consider to be a "talented painter"? In any event, talent is undefinable, as everyone has a different standard to which they find aesthetically pleasing.

MajorTom11 wrote:
If details are not painted in, using established techniques (gems for example), highlighting only consists of a thick chunk of paint along the edge, then it is not Pro-painted. It's not like the standards are un-known, our community regularly rates stuff on CoolMini and other sites, it should be able to rate at least a 7-8 in my mind.

Yes, the standards are unknown. There is no board of miniature painting, no professional certification - not even "community stardards", since there has never been an official vote on DakkaDakka on what constitutes a "professional painting job" - and even then, DakkaDakka is not the world. There are no standards and it's lunacy to claim there are. You're trying to quantify the unquantifiable. Or, as Stephen King described talent - "If you wrote something for which someone sent you a check, if you cashed the check and it didn't bounce, and if you then paid the light bill with the money, I consider you talented."

By that reasonable standard, if I paint a mini, and someone bought it on ebay, I am a pro-painter - even if I'm terrible. If you gave an estimated CMON rating, that's a different story.

this is a debate that is of great interest to me, as it's a subject i spend most of my waking hours contemplating...

i can't quantify what "pro-painted" mini on ebay should be defined as, just as i can't really define what a professional painter is or isn't...
i can, however, lay out some facts about my work, and share my perspective...

first of all, i've been painting for 25 years (since i was 11), and been serious about painting for about the last 13 years...
it wasn't until 2000 that i started really studying the mini painting art...

from 2000 to 2004 i worked to perfect the basic, clean, 'Eavy Metal style of painting, trying to consistently match the quality of a basic foot soldier in a GW army book...

in 2003 i started to paint for miniature companies, and take commissions...
this became my fulltime job, and thus i would be considered a "professional"...
due to time and budget constraints i was always told by my bosses (former GW sculptors and painters) to just paint it "good enough", or as i call it, basic 'Eavy Metal quality...

at this point i was making $35 to $50 each man-sized mini...
i was getting published in rulebooks, winning awards at painting competitions, and painting daily...
i achieved a consistent quality, but didn't paint anything that i considered special or outstanding...

after 3 years in the industry, and a Golden Demon trophy, people started to recognize my name and work...
i quickly realized that i could make more money taking commissions, than i could taking whatever a company was willing to offer...

when i started taking commissions again in 2007 my starting price was $75 for a man-sized mini, painted to a basic 'Eavy Metal standard...
i stayed busy, and people were happy with my work, but it didn't push my painting skills any because i couldn't afford to spend the extra time that goes into painting an amazing mini...
believe me it takes genuine hard work, not some magic pixie dust, to paint an incredible mini...
i still don't consider myself to be there yet...

at the end of 2008 i stopped taking commissions for a while so i could concentrate on developing my painting skills, and take them to the next level...
at this point i started my CoolMini gallery, and let the world rate my work...

i began with my older industry work, and scored in the 6's & 7's, but mostly 6's...
i didn't consider this too bad, considering that most of the paintjobs were a few years old, and the voting had gotten tougher as the world's elite painters pushed the envelope year after year...
what would have been an 8 in '05 was now a 6 in '09...
i wasn't discouraged, but i certainly wasn't satisfied...

by this time my commission rates had risen to $150 to start, but i was less interested in money than i was in becoming a better painter...
most of '09 was spent working on smoother layers, more contrast, and sharper highlights...
i was still painting in the 'Eavy Metal style, but now judging my work against the character models in an army book, instead of a rank and file mini...

i also started selling my work on ebay in '09...
when i began i was selling all my old minis, so most of the work was 5 or 6 years old...
i started my bids around $10, and never called anything "pro-painted"...
my average sale was around $25, and i rarely had to relist anything...
last year my highest ebay sale was around $150...

fast forward to right now...
my starting commission price is $200 for a man-sized mini...
my average commission is $300 right now for a Space Marine, due to people wanting the little extras like sculpting and heavy freehand...
i'm booked 3 months ahead, consistently, for commissions...
my average score on CoolMini is an 8.75...
i'm ranked 520 out of 7330...
my average ebay sale is around $150 with my highest sale at $206 (for a Golden Bolter Silver Medal, and people's Choice, winner, painted early this year)...

here's the kicker, i caught a ton of flack for starting an auction on ebay for $200...
this is for a Limited Edition Space Marine, painted in April, in the flavor of the month colors, rating an 8 on CMON, painted by a guy with a solid resume and name in the industry...
the mini was painted in top-quality 'Eavy Metal style, with all the proper Codex markings, plus battle damage and freehand markings...
it was not labeled as a "pro-painted" auction...

i was criticized on every website i advertised on for asking way too much for the mini, but i would have charged a private collector $300 for the mini and felt he was getting a deal...

the point is, "pro-painted" has a horrible reputation on ebay as being a joke...
as MajorTom said, if it doesn't rate a 7 on CoolMini it should really just be called "painted"...

as to being a "professional painter", there are many different skill levels, as well as pricing levels, among the people who paint full-time for a living...
some people like Blue Table offer a cheap full-army service...
some people don't like'em, but you get what you pay for...
for a higher price, you get a lovely job from GMM Studios...
these are "tabletop quality minis" as they are meant for gaming, but one is a level of absolute beauty, and the other is just "good enough"...

my basic commission rates are for what i call "high tabletop quality" minis, and yet they score solid 8 on CMON everytime...
if i was left to judge where the benchmarks should be set in mini painting we would all be in a world of trouble...
i am a paint snob, and an elitist...
when i see the minis, and artists, that regularly score in the 9's on CMON, i can see exactly why they score so high...
there is a visual impact that top-quality minis have, which is hard to deny...
we all know what an incredible artists people like Yellow One, Razza, Artur, Jen Haley, Marike, Rusto, and the other elites are...
the best part is, all these artist have different unique style...
all are easy to identify, yet always impress with their skills...

there is no right definition for these things, and everyone's perspective is personal, but this is how i feel about the subject...
i'm not here to dictate standards, i'm here to improve my painting and climb my way into the ranks of the elite painters who regularly score 9'0 on CMON, and who can sell a $500 mini without anyone raising a stink about it...

hard work should be rewarded, not despised...

cheers
jah

Pro-painted is a meaningless marketing term. That was my original point, people make a big deal about seeing pro painted on poorly done minis, when in reality most of the minis described as pro painted are poorly done. The disconnect is not in the description it is in the mind of the person that attaches some meaning to the term pro-painted.

firstlt - just came across this, neat crisp bold and a solid good paintjob, but i don't feel it's worth the tag of £110...

jah-joshua wrote:
here's the kicker, i caught a ton of flack for starting an auction on ebay for $200...
this is for a Limited Edition Space Marine, painted in April, in the flavor of the month colors, rating an 8 on CMON, painted by a guy with a solid resume and name in the industry...
the mini was painted in top-quality 'Eavy Metal style, with all the proper Codex markings, plus battle damage and freehand markings...
it was not labeled as a "pro-painted" auction...

i was criticized on every website i advertised on for asking way too much for the mini, but i would have charged a private collector $300 for the mini and felt he was getting a deal...


cheers
jah

I think the point of this is value vs skill/paintjob. Jah as you said you didn't label things as pro-painted and personally Unless the image on ebay looks stunning I make a point of avoiding looking at 'pro-painted' on there. I'm not doubting that many are painted professionally (i.e. as a 'proffession') but most are by kids wanting a bit of pocket money for the least amount of work. A miniature should sell for what it's worth, simple business concept - supply and demand, if it's good enough the price will rise to match. Setting a high start price to me is a bit 'coc#y' - no offense intended. As a painter who has sold a few models myself - not to your standard jah - I have a price in mind i would like, and feel the model is worth. However this should ideally be set as a secret reserve price. That way the start is low and bidders can bid what they want to pay for the mini, if they don't feel it's worth what you wont then the reserve won't be met and it wont sell. Yes ebay is cheaper to just set a higher start price, but then your putting a high value on your own work, which you are generally going to have a bias for. there's so many models on ebay to get the best price you'd need to advertise on forums etc. as well.

Bsically i think i'm trying to say if your painting is as good as you feel it is then trust the buyers to pay that price, or risk being shunned by setting your own.Again, no offense is intended by this at all - Jah, you're obviously a talented indiviual and I'm not knocking your work, just trying to look from a business side.

I have no objection to models being labbeled as painted by golden deamon winners etc. to add a level of re-assurance to the buyer as this is often easy to check if it's a genuine claim, and if it is then the seller is likly to supply a wd issue or official place to check the claim easily. A seller of this quality who doesn't in my mind is missing out on a simple value-adding techniqu.

some good points there, covenant...
i don't take offence to anything you said...
i've gotten much the same advice from Rob Cardiss (Demonherald on CMON), one of the Wyrd painters, and a very successful ebay seller...

i'm hesitant to do the reserve pricing beacuase it's twice as expensive, and the ebay tutorial says it may scare away potential bidders, since they don't know how high the bids have to go to get their hands on the mini...

i see ebay as my storefront, until i build a website...
i'm just looking for that one bidder...
$5-$10 finishing bids for my work hurts more than catching flak for starting at $200...

i still have a lot to learn about treating my painting as a business...
i see your point about setting a high starting price as being a bit cocky...
honestly, i'd rather be sen as a bit cocky, instead of a pushover, as long as i can deliver the goods...

thanks for taking the time to share your observations...

cheers
jah

asmith wrote:it would only be false advertising because the painting was not complete. If you said "professionally base coated" I don't think anyone would have a problem with that.

I've successfully used a toilet many times. I would not sell myself as a Professional Plumber.

Using "pro" in an advertisement is used as a declararion of skill, regardless of what the dictionary says. The meaning of "professional" has changed over the decades to indicate someone is worthy of earning a living from their skills, not just that their grandmother paid them $2 for a macaroni ashtray and can now consider themselves a "professional" designer. Semantic arguments don't hold much water, because spoken language mutates much faster than written (ie. dictionaries).

anyways...

No, this tyranid did not win any GD awards in 2002. And yes, artists "back then" were more skilled than this. Damn kids...


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jah-joshua wrote:
here's the kicker, i caught a ton of flack for starting an auction on ebay for $200...cheers
jah

That's awesome that you're making a living doing what you love. The thing is, you don't need to listen to the majority who feel they know what the right price is. You only need one buyer who has the cash to agree with you, and it's all good. The muppets who complain about your pricing aren't the ones who are going to pay your rent when you drop your prices down to what they deem "respectable".

I know a few people who make their living selling painted minis on eBay. You can do fairly well if you are talented, and can attract loyal buyers. But you need to drop your modesty and ask for what the work is worth, not just a price that won't offend the masses. And it's not just a straight calculation of hours spent on a mini, but also the years of experience and eye for detail that need to be factored in.

I'd love to be in a position to paint for money, but A) I'm slower than molasses, and B) My kids like to eat. There's a joke I loved from my years as an illustrator:

Q: "What's the difference between an artist and a large pizza?"
A: "The pizza can feed a family of four."

Anyways, best of luck to you Jah!