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If their Intervention ability was a upgrade you could pay for I would use them more (and not pay for it). They are fairly effective in a Shrike army, you can Infiltrate them and they have Fleet making them pretty fast (first turn charge or reserve to outflank). I've always wanted to see a 10 man unit with Dual Fists and Jump Packs, it would only cost around 800 points!

Actually, to be perfectly serious, I do have a Van Vet squad, five men, jump packs, power weapons, storm shields.

330 points.

Yeah, it never actually got fielded, I just wanted to paint the DA Veteran models I converted for them.

And I never even got around to painting more than one!

@BladeWalker:
That is if you don't play by RAW, , GW's so funny.../sigh.
_____________________
Moar Attack Bikes for Fast Attack Slots!!

From a Fluff point of View I like em. I like the concept and the story behind them. But from a Pratical non-story time of game. They die just as easily to Lasgun fire as their brethens of half the price and are just as effective as Assualt Marines who are by far cheaper.

Unless you want them to break a specific nut at an exact moment with HI. No reason to not bring the Assualt Terminators.

I-bounty-hunt-the-elderly wrote:When are you willing to fly to Rwanda?

Anytime you want, but for the rematch, you fly to France.

I will just say I fear the day that someone fields 3 squads of 10 Vanguard at me, I'm a guard player so cc scares my guys a bit. maby Vanguard are a little over priced, however the "Heroic Intervention" rule which everyone says is so much meh, is the scariest thing Ive seen for ages, they can assault and be guaranteed to kill something EVERY TIME. anything that DS in usualy shoots a couple of things and then dies horribly, with vanguard i dont get to shoot them, and with BA decent of angels they are even scarier. yes they are evpensive, they get to skip the 2+ turns of geting shot at and get into cc instantly. once people work out that they are the most deadly thing in boots against a shooty army more people would use them

Sanctjud wrote:But it's true...but you can't hear me because you just can't accept that there are other people with opinions like Darkhound and I.

But he can't read this because he's ignored me I believe...so ... win/win I guess.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Internet Drama? There is nothing else.

You make a lot of good points...

AF what do you think about that?

I'm on a mission.

Well, to add to the fire Jerry Willydstyle Springer... ... or not.
Hey I want my pay in cash, no check business!

wildstyle
I think sanct is a whining like a little girl.
and yes... I can see that you're on a mission... I'm just going to tell you strait up I'm not interested in talking to him with you as an intermediary.

Really?

Kroot worth it: AF says they suck.
Space Wolves shooty: AF says that they are not.
Bolters?: AF has high expectations for standard weaponry.
etc.

And also a note Willy, my responce was to second Tedurur's post.
Anyway, double standards are the two words of... the month with AF.

I respond to his extreme claims by offering a different point of view, and I'm 'whining like a little girl.'
While we have evidence that he does not care for other peoples' opinions...I mean just look at the Kroot Worthiness thread... it took a whole page for him to realize they can be used in indirect ways for benefit........after repeating it into 2 pages.

/shrug, it's just how it is. It's good that all shades of the rainbow are represented.

AF thinks that 40K is simple and as simple as Black and White. He quotes it like Winning and Losing. I propose that things are shades of grey....... as I think AF completely forget that Draws exist...

AF posts utter nonsense with such frequency that I am forced to mock him.

sigh.... ignore.

Wow, we are on a roll.
Suddenly he'll only have a dialogue of just himself on the internet to reflect his condition currently
And I like how he tells us, even though he really doesn't need to if he doesn't enjoy replying to us so much.
I find it funny that he tells us he's ignoring us....esp. how much he likes replying to our posts.
Which ever makes more sense

I'm sure he loves swimming... in "de Nile".

I was thinking of making a Shrike List with the Following
Shrike leading a Assault Squad with a Chaplin, using the Infiltrate.
One 10 man Vanguard Veteran Squads armed with Paired Lighting Claws


That will run about 1,200 [1,800 for 2 VV Squads] points, but think of all of the fun and Chaos

With that settled... can we get back to the OP please?

Vanguard (for fluff reasons) will play a significant role in the re-making of my chapter and I've been despairing of the fact that they seem too overpriced to ever play a functional battlefield role. Would welcome any comments, examples or ideas to the contrary. i.e. If you had to take vanguard (again, for fluff reasons) how would you use them to get the most out of them?

Thanks...

My above list

Infiltrate the Shrike Squad to make a quick strike on HQ and Heavy Weapon Squads.
The other would be broken up onto their combat Squads to munch on rear aria units with Lighting Claws or Melta Bombs as needed.
If the game is big enough include Assault Terminators to the same.

OK, what if you took Vanguard Vets with Jet packs with a Chaplain with Jetpack. Heroic intervention with Chaplain Re-roll, (Sweeping advance?) could be pretty devastating if you Deep Strike get the 1st assault in, especially if your Vets are tooled up. they'll get smashed by turn 3 but the rest of the Army will have steamed across the board.....This seems to good to be true, what have i missed?

The Chaplin is a IC and removes the Heroic Intervention

D'oh, Yup your correct. Vanguard Veterans are brilliant as a concept but the points cost, well it just makes them.......redundant? Sternguards on the other hand are kick ass!

See, it sucks when there has to be a disclaimer like:

"Please advice that doesn't include: 'lol they suck, play werewolf/twilight marines lol'"

I would say... randomly, 1 special close combat weapon per...3 bodies...cause that seems a good balance. Don't load up on them too much and keep them flexible.

If you have access to options that can take locators, maybe 1 -2, but even then they are kinda iffy to get into position early and survive til the Vanguard are available.

The only time Vanguards are worth it (IMHO) is in a BA army when you don't want to spend the points on a DC with Lemartes. Basicly you suit them up however you want, drop them in a stormraven, and use the descent of angels special rule and heroic intervention (DoA is allowed from units with JPs disembarking from a stormraven) and smash stuff like that. That's basicly the same as a termie death march, with speed being valued over tanking.
I find tho that that is a matter of choice, whether you're the kind of person who likes to play light and fast (tho if you do you should probably be playing Eldar) or the kind of person who likes to tank.

If I had to run them, for whatever reason, I'd run them as a 5-man jump pack suicide squad with two power fists and three chainswords.

Their entire purpose would be to deeps-strike in and crack open a troublesome tank or drop a monstrous creature with their 3 attacks on the charge and HI. They'd die soon after, but as long as they did around 200 points of damage, they'd pay for themselves.

This is the only way I can see them reliably fielded and working in such a way that they're more useful than Assault Marines.

AbaddonFidelis wrote:sigh.... ignore.

Mission Accomplished

AbaddonFidelis wrote:Hazard
yeah well in fairness assault marines are kind of overpriced too. I think blood angels get them for something like 16 points a piece.
AF

That right there. Random side note we get them for 18, we get sqauds of ten for 20 pts more than a full tac squad and can't take any heavy weapons. and special weapons are counter productive to our namesake (namely assaulting) as they knock off our attacks. hence the hand flamer. Tac squads are best when you want bodies on the ground that WONT get munched by enemy models with guns with longer than 12" ranges
ANYWAY
back on topic
Vanguards really shouldn't be used like that (as melta vets) They should be used for flankers on blob squads. Personal favorite is do a strafe run with a storm raven on a guard gunline and then DoA HI them into the survivors. Now THATs some scary gak

I really realy want to like Vanguard Vets, but just can't find a reason to use them for what they cost in points.

The only reason I can see to take them is when running a Shrike list, and then only in a 5-man unit. Sprinkle the close combat gear around the squad for wound shenanigans, Infiltrate them, then use that 12" jump pack move, Run, then charge via Fleet. As long as you have some meltabombs and a powerfist in the unit, you can have a nice little alpha strike unit that can carve up almost anything first turn.

Then there's the wonderful loss of initiative or full reserves (if you deploy first and declare they infiltrate) that can screw you up.

TheRhino wrote:I really realy want to like Vanguard Vets, but just can't find a reason to use them for what they cost in points.

Then don't Justify the points, just take some out and have fun with them in a Pick Up game.

I don’t now about To expensive, as I have said in my Space Wolf Synergy Thread, its about the Synergy.
Yes they can be a points sink, but look at what is possible for a Mini-Death Star

Take Vulcan [He goes with some other squad.]

Now take a 5 man Vanguard Squad with Thunder Hammer [Now Mastercraft] and Storm Shields. That come out to 575 points 190 for Vulcan and 385 for the Vanguard].
Now go Deep Strike HQ/Tank hunting, with the Heroic Intervention they will reach their target intact. You should be able to take out anything you hit with it quickly and have a better than average chance of surviving.

Now mix that with some Scout Bikers you will not scatter.

Now it should survive to Assault on its second turn.

Sanctjud wrote:Then there's the wonderful loss of initiative or full reserves (if you deploy first and declare they infiltrate) that can screw you up.

Yeah. Total gamble move. Also 100% useless in a DoW deployment.

Vanguard Veterans can do several things that Assault Terminators cannot do, and do several things better. They can shoot when they arrive via Deep Strike, for example, as well as assault. They can wipe out a unit in a Sweeping Advance, is another. They can better exploit the complex unit rules, move faster, and cost less when the necessary Land Raider transport is factored in. And you need a Land Raider, because Assault Terminators that arrive by Deep Strike are plasma-bait.

Need to wipe out a blob of Imperial Guard Infantry without getting a suntan? Vanguard Veterans.

Need to hop over a swarm of Termagants to kill that Tervigon? Vanguard Veterans.

Need to take out a particular Manticore on the 2nd turn? Vanguard Veterans.

Interdict a unit of Tau Broadside Battlesuits? Vanguard Veterans.

Slaughter an army's entire complement of Obliterators/Long Fangs/Lootas? Vanguard Veterans.

Anpu42 wrote:

TheRhino wrote:I really realy want to like Vanguard Vets, but just can't find a reason to use them for what they cost in points.

Then don't Justify the points, just take some out and have fun with them in a Pick Up game.

I don’t now about To expensive, as I have said in my Space Wolf Synergy Thread, its about the Synergy.
Yes they can be a points sink, but look at what is possible for a Mini-Death Star

Take Vulcan [He goes with some other squad.]

Now take a 5 man Vanguard Squad with Thunder Hammer [Now Mastercraft] and Storm Shields. That come out to 575 points 190 for Vulcan and 385 for the Vanguard].
Now go Deep Strike HQ/Tank hunting, with the Heroic Intervention they will reach their target intact. You should be able to take out anything you hit with it quickly and have a better than average chance of surviving.

Now mix that with some Scout Bikers you will not scatter.

Now it should survive to Assault on its second turn.

But the bottom line is that you just spend close to 800 points (including the bikers) to kill what, a 200 point tank?

Do they even have a use past turn 2 in this scenario? I can't see them living past the enemy's next shooting phase.

Not even close to worth it, here.

Synergy is useful units complimenting each other - not multiple point sinks helping each other sink points.