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Anpu42 wrote:
Then don't Justify the points, just take some out and have fun with them in a Pick Up game.

Different animal, entirely . In a friendly pickup game, people use whatever they like.

Take Vulcan [He goes with some other squad.]

Now take a 5 man Vanguard Squad with Thunder Hammer [Now Mastercraft] and Storm Shields. That come out to 575 points 190 for Vulcan and 385 for the Vanguard].
Now go Deep Strike HQ/Tank hunting, with the Heroic Intervention they will reach their target intact. You should be able to take out anything you hit with it quickly and have a better than average chance of surviving.

Now mix that with some Scout Bikers you will not scatter.

Now it should survive to Assault on its second turn.

That's a LOT of moving parts. Scout Bikers that have to survive until the turn the Vanguard show up via Reserves? That's a tough feat to pull off.
The scariest part is landing the Vanguard close enough to your target without either scattering away, or scattering on top of something and causing a mishap.

I really like what they CAN do, it's just so hard to get them to actually DO it.

SaintHazard wrote:

Anpu42 wrote:

TheRhino wrote:I really realy want to like Vanguard Vets, but just can't find a reason to use them for what they cost in points.

Then don't Justify the points, just take some out and have fun with them in a Pick Up game.

But the bottom line is that you just spend close to 800 points (including the bikers) to kill what, a 200 point tank?

Do they even have a use past turn 2 in this scenario? I can't see them living past the enemy's next shooting phase.

Not even close to worth it, here.

Synergy is useful units complimenting each other - not multiple point sinks helping each other sink points.

But you compleatly ignored the 1st line

Anpu42 wrote:

SaintHazard wrote:

Anpu42 wrote:

TheRhino wrote:I really realy want to like Vanguard Vets, but just can't find a reason to use them for what they cost in points.

Then don't Justify the points, just take some out and have fun with them in a Pick Up game.

But the bottom line is that you just spend close to 800 points (including the bikers) to kill what, a 200 point tank?

Do they even have a use past turn 2 in this scenario? I can't see them living past the enemy's next shooting phase.

Not even close to worth it, here.

Synergy is useful units complimenting each other - not multiple point sinks helping each other sink points.

But you compleatly ignored the 1st line

No, don't worry, I got that. But that's honestly a completely different matter. Here in this thread, we're trying to find ways to justify their cost, and what you suggested really doesn't. That's all I'm saying.

Nurglitch wrote:Vanguard Veterans can do several things that Assault Terminators cannot do, and do several things better. They can shoot when they arrive via Deep Strike, for example, as well as assault.

Just one minor correction here. If you declare a Heroic Intervention, you may not shoot on landing.

Unless you meant they are capable of one or the other on arrival, unlike Hammernators, who can do neither!

I have been finding the 5 man Runic Blade/Power Weapon/Storm Shield on of Fox Lord's to be very effective even vs my Plasma Spam, Terminators and HQ units.
They may not take out thier points cast, but they tie thier points cost x2 every turn they are alive and in my backfield. I concider that to be effective.

TheRhino:

That is correct. Heroic Intervention isn't always necessary. Some units are better handled with a few bolt/plasma pistols up the rear armour.

Nurglitch wrote:Vanguard Veterans can do several things that Assault Terminators cannot do, and do several things better. They can shoot when they arrive via Deep Strike, for example, as well as assault. They can wipe out a unit in a Sweeping Advance, is another. They can better exploit the complex unit rules, move faster, and cost less when the necessary Land Raider transport is factored in. And you need a Land Raider, because Assault Terminators that arrive by Deep Strike are plasma-bait.

Need to wipe out a blob of Imperial Guard Infantry without getting a suntan? Vanguard Veterans.

Need to hop over a swarm of Termagants to kill that Tervigon? Vanguard Veterans.

Need to take out a particular Manticore on the 2nd turn? Vanguard Veterans.

Interdict a unit of Tau Broadside Battlesuits? Vanguard Veterans.

Slaughter an army's entire complement of Obliterators/Long Fangs/Lootas? Vanguard Veterans.

By the way, I just want to point out that if we're talking about point cost to success ratio, several of these (notably 1, 2, 3, though maybe not 4 or 5) can be done via shooting more easily and cheaply (in my opinion) than Van Vets. Yes, Van Vets can do these things better than Terminators, but not as well as a Vindicator for 1, a Devastator Squad with lascannons for 2 and 3. Again, this is just my opinion, but as a result I would not consider using Van Vets for these tasks.

Say what you will about apples or oranges, bananas are a real man's fruit.

Ok, VV would be good held in a gunline army vs 'nids. They can leap over the cheap "Fodder" 'nids and smash into the MC nasty's although A scout Squad with Telion and sniper rifles is good against 'nids.

Remember its not always about points, its about perception, initiative and forcing your opponent to battle on your own terms.

Numbers and statistics in war mean nothing, mathematically Roukes Drift should have been a push over for the Zulu's. How did Russia lose 28 Million in WW2 to Germany's 8million across 3 fronts? Its all about shaping your opponents actions and taking the tactical initiative and then engaging them on ground of your own choosing. Vanguard Vets do have a place, in certain circumstances and if well supported in a balanced army could be a Battle winner!

GitSplitta

about using the vanguard veterans:
well if you're determined to use them my advice would be to use them so as to take full advantage of their heroic intervention rule. Over the last year I've become convinced that deep striking is not as risky as is generally believed, and getting to charge right off the go is potentially very strong. Scouts with locator beacons would make alot of sense with your fluff and also with the tactics that will make them work....

4 combi meltas and the rest lightning claws power weapons relic blade if they can take them, so you can bust an enemy tank if you have to do it on the way in, either a rhino protecting a squad or a baal predator w/e. in this case they're a very flexible unit, capable of effectively engaging any target.

The models are beautiful I've been tempted to buy them many times just to paint them.
AF


Automatically Appended Next Post:
incidentally taking scouts would free up the points you need to run them by fulfilling your FOC requirements without loading up on tacticals.

This is a quick list I made using my current models.

The Basic Plan
Break the Tactical Squads into Combat Squads [Sergeant and Flamer in one and Heavy Bolter in the other], put the Chaplin with one of them.
-Leave the Devastator Squads in full sized and find them a Firebase to work with for covering fire.
-Break the Vanguard Veterans into Combat Squads [Sergeant and the two PP in one and the other five by themselves], using the Sergeant’s combat Squad for Light Armor Hunting and the rest for HQ Hunting.
[Yes I know I do not have Heavy Tank Hunting]

2000 Pts - Space Marines Roster

Space Marine Chaplain (Power Armor; Rosarius; Bolt Pistol; Crozius Arcanum)

Tactical Squad (Bolt Pistol x9; Bolter x7; Flamer x1; Heavy Bolter x1)
-1x Sergeant (Plasma Pistol x1; Power Weapon x1)

Tactical Squad (Bolt Pistol x9; Bolter x7; Flamer x1; Heavy Bolter x1)
-1x Sergeant (Plasma Pistol x1; Power Weapon x1)

Tactical Squad (Bolt Pistol x9; Bolter x7; Flamer x1; Heavy Bolter x1)
-1x Sergeant (Plasma Pistol x1; Power Weapon x1)

Vanguard Veteran Squad (Equip with Jump Packs)
-1x Sergeant (Power Fist x1; Plasma Pistol x1)
-2x Veteran (Chainsword x2; Plasma Pistol x2)
-7x Veteran (Bolt Pistol x7; Chainsword x2)

Vanguard Veteran Squad (Equip with Jump Packs)
-1x Sergeant (Power Fist x1; Plasma Pistol x1)
-2x Veteran (Chainsword x2; Plasma Pistol x2)
-7x Veteran (Bolt Pistol x7; Chainsword x2)

Devastator Squad (Bolt Pistol x9; Bolter x5; Plasma Cannon x4)
-1x Sergeant (Bolter x1; Chainsword x1)

Devastator Squad (Bolt Pistol x9; Bolter x5; Plasma Cannon x4)
-1x Sergeant (Bolter x1; Chainsword x1)

AF... and lots of others.... Wow, a lot of good suggestions... maybe things aren't quite as hopeless as I'd feared.


Here is what I'm thinking... and I apologize in advance for pseudo-hijacking the thread.

Preface: Without going into too much detail, my chapter is fluff driven... so if this doesn't sound like the best build it probably isn't... but I want to stay true to my vision of the chapter as that's what I find worth investing all these hours and dollars. MoTF/dread based army with lots of vets but no tracked or wheeled vehicles, also no to very few regular tactical marines. Basically elites and scouts with dreads in support (you can read my blog on the Mantis Warriors if you're interested). It's a vanilla marine chapter.

In a mid-sized army, have two dreads in pods & one sternguard in pod w/ charachter (MoTF, Pedro, etc). Troops include scout units in LS Storms and Scout bikers with homing beacon. Bikes infiltrate and scout move with beacon, 2 LS storms (multimelta) with scouts shadow bikes... turn 1 two pods come down on bikes, sternguard & characters and dread. This allows me to put a lot of shooty points very accurately deep into my opponents backfield on turn 1, including 2 LS multi-meltas, whatever the sternguard are carrying and lots of bolter fire from the scouts & will probably give the scout sergeants PF's for spite, oh, and a dread too. Now I figure if I'm smart, I should be able to scoot the bikes around with relative impunity as they are about the least threatening thing over there... allowing me to drop the Vanguard where/when they're needed the most (by turn 2 or 3 my opponent should be all over my advanced force) and have them (vanguard) charge on the drop just when my opponent thinks he has things well in hand.

In the mean time the rest of my army (sniper scouts, long range dreads) are claiming objectives and sniping at anything they can see with what should be reduced resistance (do to my opponent having to deal with all the stuff in his backfield).


That's my idea anyway... kind of maximizes the impact of the vanguard by throwing them into the middle of a developing battle where their odds of killing something important and/or surviving multiple assaults are increased. Obviously opponent, scenario and if I go first or second will alter the plan to varying degrees... but it seems at least a novel approach, if somewhat unorthodox.

Thoughts?



.

They work quite well for BA since they benefit from DoA. For vanilla Marines the 2d6" scatter is way too unreliable.

death from above.
I think sanguinor has a good point about descent of angels.

You can run the same army you described out of the blood angels codex and that book is so strong that it seems like a really good idea to switch..... this will let you stay consistent with your fluff and make you much more competitive.
AF

the saving grace of VVs is DoA.

scattering only d6 makes DS much less hazardous and allows you to have a very good chance of getting into CC with Heroic Intervention.


the Beardy thing is, BA get DoA for practically free with their Jpacks.

I'll have to take a look at that codex. Though... I guess I don't want to be seen as just jumping on the BA bandwagon because it's a hot dex... but if it really fits in well with my army, it'd be foolish not to give it a fair read.

It's really quite strong. especially for jump pack guys. your chapter sounds pretty air borne so it makes sense to me that they'd be a successor chapter to blood angels or have their own air superiority doctrines, since that's what blood angels are (suddenly) all about.

I'll be sure to check it out. Thanks AF!

Vanguard Veterans are tank, I was gonna get a squad, that was until I tallied the point cost. A fully tooled-up squad can easily pass the 400 point mark.

Several warning Pms sent out to people who have stepped far over the line with regards to the politeness we expect users to show to other posters when dealing with them. Argue your case do not attack the poster.

5 Wounds dies as fast as well 5 wounds. Waste of points for sure. They are only for fluff games in my mind.

@Kaidsin:
Well, it's not that it's 'just 5 wounds'. That can be said of Sternguard, Wolfguard, Cult troopers, anything else that's of an MEQ status.

The issue is that they have a narrow application at a high cost. There is alot of Risk for alot of Reward. Which then falls upon personal taste. Are you risk averse or risk loving.

The Reward? Charging after deepstrike, being safe until deployed onto the board. Locking an enemy unit in combat or taking out something important so that the rest of your list can feel safer, essentially disruption and assassination.

Certainly there are counters and that they are not appealing for cost, but even with a heavy oppurtunity cost, Heroic Intervension is something relatively unique and fairly powerful, if you pull it off<--- that is the issue for most people. Either they don't like the other elements to support this 'trick', or they don't like all the risks involved with it, and risks there are many.

As for them being competitive or not, they don't make it mainly due to IMO people not NEEDING heroic intervension. This is a rules set issue IMO because everything is so fast already that their unique rule is not as flashy as it should be.

At least this is just one point of view.
I could just sit here and say "they suck, use something else, or play Twilight Marines."

Sanctjud, that's kind of offensive. I'm going to have to ask you to steer clear of terms like "Twilight Marines." Please use more politically correct terms like "Nipplemarines" or "Sparklemarines."

Thank you.



That aside, your actual point is solid, and basically what I've been saying from page 1: they're highly situational and highly specialized. If you can make them work, then they're absolutely worth it.

Problem is, nine times out of ten a situation where they really shine does not arise, which makes taking them a gamble.

Edit: Unless you spend another 500 points manufacturing such a situation.

Which, in my opinion, is never the answer.

I think Sanctjud summed it all up quite nicely. Basically there is no reward without risk. HI + DoA makes for a potent combination.

BladeWalker wrote:If their Intervention ability was a upgrade you could pay for I would use them more (and not pay for it). They are fairly effective in a Shrike army, you can Infiltrate them and they have Fleet making them pretty fast (first turn charge or reserve to outflank). I've always wanted to see a 10 man unit with Dual Fists and Jump Packs, it would only cost around 800 points!

But Assault Marines are as effective with Shrike against most turn 1 targets you can hit with infiltrated jump pack infantry as those power-weapons-loaded veterans.

Alkasyn wrote:But Assault Marines are as effective with Shrike against most turn 1 targets you can hit with infiltrated jump pack infantry as those power-weapons-loaded veterans.

Until you hit some MEQs that are rolloing god saves.
I had a normal Assuatl Squad lead by Shrike impact on a 5 Man Devistator Squad, Shrike Killed 3, but the other 15 Wounds caused be Chain Swords Bounced, it took my Sargent with his Power Fist to finishes them off.
This is why the 5 man Power Weapon/Storm Shield Vanguard Vets Crushed my Blood Claws, Every Wound Killed one Model, No Save, but my Wolf Priest becouse he had a 4++. With the Storm Shields even my Power Fist Bounced off them.
I perslonly think thier is a place for them. Not on every list, but if you know you are facing MEQ's, expecialy Tactical Terminators and Death Company 5 armed Vangard Vets with Power Weapon are worth it.

@Alkasyn:
Also assuming you guys play by RAI and House Rule things with Shrike. Heh, silly GW.

@Sanctjud Yea we factor that in. We also play battle missions a lot so we have to cope with even more unexpected stuff.

@Apu That is correct. There is a place for Vanguard, though not too much.

Anyway, I don't wanna resurrect without purpose, and my main goal here is to ask a question.

I recently decided to model and paint a 10 man Vanguard squad. Uselessness/Usefulness aside, I'm thinking what weapons to give them. They'll have magnetised jump packs so that I can switch them to a rhino if I want that, and I was thinking relic blade on Sarge, light claw, power weapon, power weapon, storm shield , each of those on a different model.

All that would mean 4 power weapons and a storm shield in a 10 man squad. Thoughts?

Sounds expensive. Really expensive.

Also, old thread is old.