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There is nothing wrong with asking to see your opponents Army list. IMO, it is a prerequisite to having an agreement to play. Without asking, how can you even be sure that your opponent has a list.

I've had people try to tell me that they lost their list or some such. My reply to this is, "Here, Ive got a pencil and some paper you can use." The ones that suddenly decline to play are the people that you warn your gaming friends about.

The list exchange also stops unnecessary arguments from happening. If your opponent wants to use forgeworld pieces then they will be listed and you will know what your opponents expectations are for the game. At that point you can make an informed decision of whether to play or not.

focusedfire wrote:There is nothing wrong with asking to see your opponents Army list. IMO, it is a prerequisite to having an agreement to play. Without asking, how can you even be sure that your opponent has a list.

I've had people try to tell me that they lost their list or some such. My reply to this is, "Here, Ive got a pencil and some paper you can use." The ones that suddenly decline to play are the people that you warn your gaming friends about.

The list exchange also stops unnecessary arguments from happening. If your opponent wants to use forgeworld pieces then they will be listed and you will know what your opponents expectations are for the game. At that point you can make an informed decision of whether to play or not.

I agree with this, but I would be careful. I have ran into a few situations in which I have asked to see someones list without first showing them mine and been accused of list tailoring. Mind it was just a random pick up game but still.

That's easy to fix. Be cheerfully aggressive. Plop your list down in front of them, and say, "Mind if I see yours?"

If they decline, something's up.

As long as you're honest with each other it's all good. If he made a mistake he won't be averse to cutting out a few banners or heavy bolter sponsons or whatever.

I particularly enjoy when I'm about to play with a friend and one of us starts off with:
"Hey, I'm 15 points over, do you mind? Just put 15 more points in your list"
"Okay, now I'm over by another 25, add a powerfist somewhere"
"I'm over by 100, toss in a dreadnought or something"
And our 1500 point game becomes a 2250 game.

In friendly games sure a few points over is fine with me and most of my friends as well. When I was first getting back into 5th my friend showing me the new rules let me have 3HQ vs the 2 because it was a learning game and I didn't have the new codex yet. I was also using some of his extra models. A lot of it depends on where you play, I play with a set group of about 5-6 guys it's a fun atmosphere were we can joke around talk smack w/e, although some of us can be nasty rules lawyers.

Tournaments it's a big no no. If it's 1500 play 1500 not a point over. I always ask to see my opponents lists before hand anyway to get an idea what he's got anyway.

If it's your local gaming store with Random_Neckbeard_42 ask to exchange lists.

When I create my lists I always use a spreadsheet and everything is marked down point for point so it's easy anything for anyone who wants to read it. The added bonus is I can easily keep all the army lists I've built to compare them to each other. The other bonus is I have to do no math (not like adding is hard mind you) I just have mine set up so that as I add units it has a box that auto detracts from my points total and another box that shows how many I've spent so on and so fort. It just makes focusing on building easier. Some of my other friends use Army Builder which is nice also as the printouts are great but I don't want to spend 40+ bucks on their program.

Yeah 85 pts over is a bit....well its close to cheating that. 85pts is no misscalculation really. I use my orksin the majority of games i play and if i was to go 85 pts over using orks i can have 14 more boys. and another 14 boys gives you a big advantage.

I guess if you know that its over by x amount of points and you have some models with you your not using add them in, its easier than an opponent rewriting an entire list just to get it right, or just get em told.

Melissia wrote:So do you stop at 1996 points, or 2001 points?

I would stop at 1996, personally. I've quite frequently built lists that are 10 or 15 points under, because it was easier than trying to shoe-horn something in to fill the remaining gap. It's not usually that critical to have exactly the points limit on the table.

ArtfcllyFlvrd wrote:Hi guys,

Thanks for all the responses.

I am pretty much in the camp that 1001 pts isnt 1000 pts. But other than that our group is pretty friendly and casual so I was worried if demanding to see the guys list every game would change the atmosphere a little.

I am sort of in charge of our group though, I think I'm gonna make it a rule that everyone exchanges lists before every game. Should have been happening anyway but most of us gave the other guy the benefit of the doubt.

If you are in charge of the gaming group, then take charge. If you have a new group, take the reins on making sure everyone follows the rules.

Just say "Guys, every other gaming group brings their list to the match and swaps them with their opponents. That way, everyone knows what they're playing against, and there is no confusion. So, the next time we play, everyone should have a copy with them." That's all it should take.

Before the game, make sure the list matches the models they brought. If there are 5 sternguard on the list, but 10 standing next to their drop pod, say something right then. It could easily be a mistake, and probably is. "Oh yeah, I took out 5 sternguard to make room for a vinidcator," or something like that.

To add to Insaniak's point, another thing a lot of people don't realize is that you may in fact make mistakes when you start crunching numbers. Leaving 10-15 points available instead of shoehorning some obscure upgrade in actually gives you a small margin of error if and when you find out that you messed up and added an upgrade you didn't pay for, or something similar.

Spreadsheets for the win.

You can tally your points accurately.

You can clearly lay out all of the upgrades that a unit has.

You can print it when you're done.

You'll make a lot of these in college, so practice now. Unless you're a band major. I can help you, there.

Actually, I just sit there with my codex and a desk calculator, and I keep the tape.

ArtfcllyFlvrd wrote:So I played last night at 1000 pts and I think my opponent was fairly significantly over.

He had:

Company Command Sqd w/ Lascannon
Sly Marbo
2 Vet Sqds w/ Demolitions
2 Devil Dogs
2 Vendettas
Hydra
Manticore

Without any upgrades I calculate this to be 1085. I know it doesn't seem like much but he should have been down marbo+ or hydra+ both of which would have been game altering massively in my favor.

So I don't know what to do. I don't want to ask to read his list every time we play, but if you can't get a 1000 pt list right it kind of concerns me that this will happen again and for a bigger amount in other games. Any suggestions?

It might have been a mistake, I wouldn't be to hard on him cause not everyone is perfect on these things. I know if I don't have army builder I can get points wrong heck one time I was doing it by hand and I was 200pts over, only seeing this after I had played him, called him back and apologized and offered to play him again and buy a round of drinks at the store.

As was already stated, some armies don't fit into the "block" paradigm well. CSM is a pretty good example, with cult troops being bizarre in terms of points value. The way I run my PM squads they come out to 216 points. My 1,500 list, as I run it, is 4 points under. An alternate list that I'd like to run is 1,501 points. It's the difference between a possessed Vindicator or 2 Obliterators, which play very, very differently.

IMO, 1,500 means 1,500, no means no, hay is for horses, and Y is a crooked letter.

I'm pretty much ok with my opponent going over, but personally I always try to stick to the limit. In other words the harder the game is for me the better I can learn, I would imagine.

As someone just getting back into 40k after a 12 or 13 year absence, I'm enjoying all of the stories and opinions in this thread!

I remember being the kid who was more concerned with cool looking armies and borrowing others units to try out and learn with, at the time I just wanted to have fun and using math wasn't what I wanted to do on my free time.

Flash forward and I'm older, still looking to have fun but with a strong nod towards sportsmanship. I really like the suggestion of being cheerfully aggressive (fantastic phrase), handing over my own list first and asking to see my opponents, seems like that should clear up the "list tailoring" accusations. Now I don't quite have the experience to eyeball any given list and be able to tell if there is tomfoolery going on, but that's the kind of thing I can make mental notes on and then fact check later unless something glaring sticks out. I have two flgss that both (unfortunately) play 40k pickup games on the same night, but I plan on giving both a shot once I've got more models painted


I'm also a fan of building my lists under points cost by 5-10pts to account for my own errors, but after reading this thread I think it'd be wise to prepare a good +5/+8pt plan, if i encounter a list that's over I can just shrug it off and add something minor to my own list to make them nearly even. Seems like a fair way to keep things friendly and balanced.


I have a friend who is a seasoned 40k vet also looking to get back in after a few years off, I think the big thing right now is getting out and making connections at a flgs or two!


edited because I answered my own question on seeing if there are dakka users in my area

i hate it when people blatenly go over points. me and a friend play regually 1500 so i say lets play 1750 he plays necrons and all he did was add the nightbringer. and i trust him so on we go with the game and i have a look in his codex and the nightbringer is 365 or somwhere near abouts. i remove it from the board and he go what are you doing. i say your well over points. he trys all these excuses but i just say remove it or i get another land raider!

If the game is 1500, then bring 1500 or less.

No exceptions.

as a necron player, i find it hard sometimes to get the list i want to finnish at an even 2000 or whatever. i like to have my squads of like types to all have the same number of models in them. (for ease of counting) so i often find myself over by like 10 points or something. I ALWAYS ASK MY OPPONET FIRST! if they have a problem with it, i lose a model and we start thae game. most players know that a 2000 point game usualy never =2000 points exactly and dont have a problem making that adjustment up or down. but in my opinion, the OPs opponet being 80+ points over is just wrong. i would be embarassed and wouldnt even ask.

I used to be 1-5 points over. I'll never build my list over now, but I'll my friends can be up to 5 over.

I'm kind of surprised at the number of folks demonizing 1 point over. It is a whopping 6 ten-thousanths (or 6.6 percent of 1 percent) of a 1500 pt. army, and a mighty 5 ten-thousandths of a 2000 pt. army. Take a breath there Stricosaurus Rexes!

its not just by goin over by 1 point were talking by about ten or twenty or even more

Brettila wrote:I'm kind of surprised at the number of folks demonizing 1 point over. It is a whopping 6 ten-thousanths (or 6.6 percent of 1 percent) of a 1500 pt. army, and a mighty 5 ten-thousandths of a 2000 pt. army. Take a breath there Stricosaurus Rexes!

If it is negligible, get rid of it.

Many years ago (2nd ed) we had a player like this at my club. Not only over points but illegal lists and very selective incorrect rules knowledge. Would always play dumb and we were never quite sure if it was malice or incompetence.

Came to a head at the annual club tournament. He submitted a list which was over points and illegal.

He submitted another, same problem.

The third list seemed to have loads of incorrect points values, was returned to him with a comment to that effect. After much indignant posturing we got it out of him. He was selling characters' standard wargear. (i.e. buy a character with a bolt pistol, sell it and recoup the points then buy a plasma pistol) That was when we realized this was not accidental.

The fourth list had a rough rider command squad and no roughrider (something he'd been doing for so long he'd forgotten it wasn't allowed).

He didn't submit another list and didn't play at the club again. Speaking to him, he refused to play with all of these "handicaps".

This is what happens when you let people get away with stuff like this, they come to feel that they are entitled to these advantages. Rather than avoiding playing him, the more experienced club members should have been playing him and correcting his behaviour.

SaintHazard wrote:Actually, I just sit there with my codex and a desk calculator, and I keep the tape.

I'm personally a big fan of Army Builder. It's worth the $10/year, IMHO, and it helps calculate and add all the upgrades very easily.

As for what the OP is commenting on, I would approach the guy straight forwardly, and just ask that he shows his list before your next game together. And like what everyone else has been concurring to, if he hassles you about it, kindly refuse to play him until he coughs up the list. This is supposed to be a friendly game, and if you're in charge of the organization of it at your FLGS, then it's your responsibility to keep it that way.

Good luck!

Rurouni Benshin wrote:

SaintHazard wrote:Actually, I just sit there with my codex and a desk calculator, and I keep the tape.

I'm personally a big fan of Army Builder. It's worth the $10/year, IMHO, and it helps calculate and add all the upgrades very easily.

As for what the OP is commenting on, I would approach the guy straight forwardly, and just ask that he shows his list before your next game together. And like what everyone else has been concurring to, if he hassles you about it, kindly refuse to play him until he coughs up the list. This is supposed to be a friendly game, and if you're in charge of the organization of it at your FLGS, then it's your responsibility to keep it that way.

Good luck!

They need to fix IG for Army Builder, it only ever lets me take 1 servitor.... and doesn't have half the stuff that was added... *sigh*

Yup, just take it up with him and make sure your list is correct and then give it to him first and assume he'll give you his back.

Alternatively, just push your list twice as much as his and see whether he picks it up or not. If he doesn't, crush him into the dirt under your boots, if he does then just innocently go, 'Oh, I thought we were just ignoring points limits aren't we?'

The best aggressive, is passive aggressive...