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Khornholio wrote:I read somewhere, or heard, or came across at some point, in the distant past that aspartame is an appetite inducer. I remember when Diet Coke and Diet Pepsi were introduced back in like 1980 or whatever along with like Tab and stuff. Back then, people didn't seem to be the fat slugs they are now. I think that perhaps the man-made chemical ingredients in food cause cravings. Look around the next time you're at a shopping mall at how many people are walking around with at least a quart of soda. I bet the fatties have diet something. It never was that way back in the early 80s.

I never touch fizzy drinks (I'm a boring water-type guy) and yet I can't keep my hands off of anything savoury or fatty Not that keen on sweet things like desserts or chocolate, mind...

sebster wrote:

DEUS VULT wrote:On the other hand, our countries kick so much ass our POOR PEOPLE are fat, not starving to death

There's a difference between overweight and well fed. You can in fact be obese and under-nourished, if your diet is based on cheap filling foods like burgers and noodle meals this is likely the case. There is an issue in the Western world that everyone can afford to, but eating a healthy meal can be too expensive for some. It doesn't explain all obesity, but it goes some way to explaining the greater levels of obesity among the poor.

I think it falls down to time and education: Making a healthy meal out of basic ingredients is pretty damn cheap but a lot of people (myself included) can neither be arsed or know how...

whatwhat wrote:And you have obese people in the US because you have far too many fast food chains and you can find one of them on just about every street corner. Again, not hard.

On the upside I just researched the average brit consumes 150% more alcohol than the average american on a yearly basis, and yet were still behind them in the overweight figures. Perhaps the government should just restrict how late you can sell kebabs.

This :( I'll miss those stumbling nights though

Khornholio wrote:^^ I don't know, whatwhat. When I lived in the UK (Durham), there was no shortage of Viz inspired 'Fat Slag'esque women around. OK, there wasn't fastfood on every corner, but I've never seen women more addicted to chocolate than I did in the UK.

How does that contradict what I said?

^^ It doesn't contradict you at all. I just didn't want the obesity problem to be an American one only. Here in Nippon, there are very very few obese people. Even broads with 5 kids still have OK bodies.

I've been working on my alcohol consumption here. Sense might not be made of the words of Khornholio. He speaks in non-sense and reverse black magic incantations.

But aren't chicks in the UK addicted to chocolate? Most of the dudes in the UK seemed normal weight, but most of the chicks were like heifers on hind legs, if I recall correctly.

Flabby triceps used as weapons.

whatwhat, I think your just jealous of my easy acess to yummy yummy fast food at all hours.

Khornholio wrote:^^ It doesn't contradict you at all. I just didn't want the obesity problem to be an American one only. Here in Nippon, there are very very few obese people. Even broads with 5 kids still have OK bodies.

I've been working on my alcohol consumption here. Sense might not be made of the words of Khornholio. He speaks in non-sense and reverse black magic incantations.

But aren't chicks in the UK addicted to chocolate? Most of the dudes in the UK seemed normal weight, but most of the chicks were like heifers on hind legs, if I recall correctly.

Flabby triceps used as weapons.

I wouldn't say most british girls are overweight no. But then maybe I'm fairly selective on where I want to place my gaze.

Maybe this is something we can all agree on....

dogma wrote:

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Hordini wrote:I think diet pop/soda is probably one of the worst things you can drink. Pop is horrible for you in general, but I think diet is probably even worse, especially because people seem to think "Oh it's diet, I can drink as much as I want!"

Unless you're diabetic or something, I don't see any reason to use artificial sweetener in anything, it's horrible.

I drink about 2 cases of Diet Pepsi a week, and I'm in better shape than just about everyone that isn't a professional athlete. Granted, I also exercise far more than most people, but the diet soda isn't holding me back.

Im kinda surprised about this slipping through with how much you guys whine at each other about proper citing of research and whatnot. This is like the same argument that a lot of smokers I know use "Well this guy I know smoked into his 90's and was fine so its not harmful" For all your loquacious proselytizing Im surprised by this extremely anecdotal evidence.


Anyway, as already discussed, the real problem with obesity in America is lack of exercise. When I compare my Dad's generation versus how I grew up versus what I see now, theres a real steady decline in activity. The rise of several factors I think are to blame, tv and videogames and such. Also, correct me if Im wrong, but hasn't there been a massive increase in diseases like asthma and diabetes in children in the last 20 years? I dont know if these are resultant from the obesity rather than causing it, but they can surely prolong the epidemic.

IMO, we are going to see some huge problems down the road if all these fat kids don't change their ways. And personally Im scared to wonder what this obesity problem is going to cost America in terms of healthcare, whether its nationalized or not, in twenty years. Right around the same time every baby boomer is finally on social security too lol.

When I was in the UK I was forced to buy food from pubs and places because I had no cooking facilities. I put on a good bit of weight (for me, I'm a skinny fether) in a short time. I think if you're not cooking for yourself you'll get fat pretty fast. I also wasn't running like I usually do because it was so damned hot!

I am curious to go to the US and see this obesity thing for myself. I'm convinced it can't be as bad as all that. Over here, it's all beer bellies. Beer bellies and chocolate addicted women.

I think life style and culture plays the largest part in people been overweight.

It's lifestyle, full stop. When you work in an office all day and spend the evening watching TV you are putting almost zero strain on your body all day long. Consume more calories than you use and you'll gain weight no matter how much of it is, "diet," "light," or "low carb."

My work has two stages, much of the year it's a desk job. A couple months a year though are spent out and about my plant supervising overhauls. Without fail I tend to loose about five pounds during the active periods and put it right back on during the desk job periods. No real change in diet, if anything I eat worse during the active period, and I lose weight.

DutchKillsRambo wrote:

dogma wrote:

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Hordini wrote:I think diet pop/soda is probably one of the worst things you can drink. Pop is horrible for you in general, but I think diet is probably even worse, especially because people seem to think "Oh it's diet, I can drink as much as I want!"

Unless you're diabetic or something, I don't see any reason to use artificial sweetener in anything, it's horrible.

I drink about 2 cases of Diet Pepsi a week, and I'm in better shape than just about everyone that isn't a professional athlete. Granted, I also exercise far more than most people, but the diet soda isn't holding me back.

Im kinda surprised about this slipping through with how much you guys whine at each other about proper citing of research and whatnot. This is like the same argument that a lot of smokers I know use "Well this guy I know smoked into his 90's and was fine so its not harmful" For all your loquacious proselytizing Im surprised by this extremely anecdotal evidence.

Well, it's not like the initial assertion was based on anything remotely backed up by evidence.

I'm on an extremely restricted weight loss diet, and my nutritionist has told me to go nuts with the diet soda. In some people the minute amount of carbs in the nutra-sweet can actually induce hunger, and I think there are some you simply experience a "phantom" hunger, where the fake sweet makes them crave real sweet.

Like most things, there are going to be people that struggle with any given factor, and others that prosper despite it. The same is true even of obesity itself: there are people who have all kinds of nasty conditions like diabetes, hypertension, or high cholesterol due to moderate obesity, while others (like me) who are extremely obese test out fine.

I have some friends involved in the Fat acceptance movement, and ironically one of them has become very upset with me about my diet. I agree with the FA folks in that "healthy weight" is a broader concept than most doctors subscribe to. There is even evidence that slightly obese people actually have less risk of certain late life diseases. I don't agree with FA that weight and health are completely unlinked. But I think as a society we simply know that being, by the charts, obese isn't always going to kill us.

There are people who think weight and health are unlinked?
Really?

Polonius wrote: my nutritionist

Going by how you dropped that in there as if it was perfectly normal. Is it? I mean these are the kind of things which pass right through my blind spot. Does everyone have nutritionists now?

There is the "healthy at any weight" idea. I'm sure they'd say that they don't deny any link, but they're correct in that certain things like diabetes, hypertension, etc are far more controlled by genetics than by weight.

Classic example. My roommate is about 6'3", 340lbs. I was at my peak 6', 433lbs. His blood pressure was off the charts, he was taking meds and watching his salt. Mine was "a touch high."

Fast Forward to today. He still watches salt, takes his meds, and has lost about 35lbs. I've lost 120lbs, and our blood pressures are just about even, even though I eat all the salt I want.

According to the charts, I'm morbidly obese, at high risk for any number of horrible things, yet every other indicator on my chart is perfectly fine. BP, pulse, blood sugar, cholesterol, etc. At this point, I don't consider my health in any way a motivation to lose weight. It's solely appearance.


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whatwhat wrote:

Polonius wrote: my nutritionist

Going by how you dropped that in there as if it was perfectly normal. Is it? I mean these are the kind of things which pass right through my blind spot. Does everyone have nutritionists now?

Oh, I'm on an extremely limited diet due to nearly qualifying for Mass points.

http://my.clevelandclinic.org/disorders/obesity/hic_psmf_diet_program.aspx

I met with a nutritionist several times to help make sure I didn't kill myself.

Ah got you. I thought it might be the next thing to have come out of hollywood like personal trainers and soil scented perfume.

Polonius wrote:

DutchKillsRambo wrote:

dogma wrote:

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Hordini wrote:I think diet pop/soda is probably one of the worst things you can drink. Pop is horrible for you in general, but I think diet is probably even worse, especially because people seem to think "Oh it's diet, I can drink as much as I want!"

Unless you're diabetic or something, I don't see any reason to use artificial sweetener in anything, it's horrible.

I drink about 2 cases of Diet Pepsi a week, and I'm in better shape than just about everyone that isn't a professional athlete. Granted, I also exercise far more than most people, but the diet soda isn't holding me back.

Im kinda surprised about this slipping through with how much you guys whine at each other about proper citing of research and whatnot. This is like the same argument that a lot of smokers I know use "Well this guy I know smoked into his 90's and was fine so its not harmful" For all your loquacious proselytizing Im surprised by this extremely anecdotal evidence.

Well, it's not like the initial assertion was based on anything remotely backed up by evidence.

I'm on an extremely restricted weight loss diet, and my nutritionist has told me to go nuts with the diet soda. In some people the minute amount of carbs in the nutra-sweet can actually induce hunger, and I think there are some you simply experience a "phantom" hunger, where the fake sweet makes them crave real sweet.

Like most things, there are going to be people that struggle with any given factor, and others that prosper despite it. The same is true even of obesity itself: there are people who have all kinds of nasty conditions like diabetes, hypertension, or high cholesterol due to moderate obesity, while others (like me) who are extremely obese test out fine.

I have some friends involved in the Fat acceptance movement, and ironically one of them has become very upset with me about my diet. I agree with the FA folks in that "healthy weight" is a broader concept than most doctors subscribe to. There is even evidence that slightly obese people actually have less risk of certain late life diseases. I don't agree with FA that weight and health are completely unlinked. But I think as a society we simply know that being, by the charts, obese isn't always going to kill us.

Wait so the initial assertion is not backed up by evidence and then you list evidence that it can induce hunger in some? Confused.

As to all your following points about blood pressure etc, I have one question: How old are you? In your 20's? Yeah you probably shouldn't be experiencing extremely elevated blood pressure and such unless your pre-disposed to. Wait until your in your 50's and then try and say weight has no bearing on your overall health.

BMI is not at all irreproachable, but it is a good start. Obviously if your a stocky fellow and read high in the BMI because of muscle weight, you can discount it. But that's something only an individual can know. It really is rather easy to figure out whether or not your at a healthy weight by how you feel. But its dangerous to promote the idea that obesity has no bearing on health.

I was commenting that I'm not sure Dogma needed to really rebut the initial assertion with hard evidence, as the initial assertion was purely opinion not backed up by anything. Dogma is also a personal trainer, and in a battle of pure opinions, I'd take his.

I think if you read the over all post, the main theme of it is "Your mileage may vary." Some people react to aspartame with hunger. Others (like me), see no change. The same is true of many obesity related syndromes.

As for saying that weight has no bearing, I'm pretty sure I actually said:

I don't agree with FA that weight and health are completely unlinked.

which seems to me to read that, after the double negative, i think that weight and health are linked.

Obesity and things like diabetes, hypertension, metabolic syndrome, etc. are strongly correlated. As we all know from basic logic, correlation does not imply causation. Here's where things get really odd: no matter how much you weigh, losing 10-20lbs (or roughly 10% of your weight), nearly always drastically reduces the risk of obesity related disease. So, a morbidly obese person that lost some weight is often at less risk than a mildly obese person that gained some weight. Interesting.

There are a lot of genetic factors involved in whether someone deals with putting on weight too, and in some ways, the flab isn't as big an issue as what's going on in your blood vessels. So you make a good point. Obese people are still more at risk of a lot of stuff, though.
Risk is tricky to percieve without the overview, I suppose.

I would say that obese people are more likely to eat poorly, exercise little, and generally not take care of their heath. Couple that with the pressures the weight puts on the body, and it's a nasty combo.

I'd never say that obesity is healthy. I think that directly connecting obesity with nearly every health issue oversimplifies things, given the tools we now have for analyzing health.

One thing that ticks me off is how even having a slight amount of belly fat, no matter how skinny you are otherwise, is now deemed unhealthy.

A little bit of fat isn't unhealthy. Even being "overweight" isn't really unhealthy. Overweight just means you're not spot on the ideal. I've been underweight for years, and am only now a healthy weight, and I recognise that that's probably as bad, if not worse, for me that being a bit overweight.
Polonius: You definitely have a point. Obesity is a big media issue because people are interested in it, I suppose.

Wow... if the US didn't have so much poverty and lack proper social support, just imagine how overweight they could be! Europe wouldn't stand a chance!

Polonius wrote:I was commenting that I'm not sure Dogma needed to really rebut the initial assertion with hard evidence, as the initial assertion was purely opinion not backed up by anything. Dogma is also a personal trainer, and in a battle of pure opinions, I'd take his.

I think if you read the over all post, the main theme of it is "Your mileage may vary." Some people react to aspartame with hunger. Others (like me), see no change. The same is true of many obesity related syndromes.

As for saying that weight has no bearing, I'm pretty sure I actually said:

I don't agree with FA that weight and health are completely unlinked.

which seems to me to read that, after the double negative, i think that weight and health are linked.

Obesity and things like diabetes, hypertension, metabolic syndrome, etc. are strongly correlated. As we all know from basic logic, correlation does not imply causation. Here's where things get really odd: no matter how much you weigh, losing 10-20lbs (or roughly 10% of your weight), nearly always drastically reduces the risk of obesity related disease. So, a morbidly obese person that lost some weight is often at less risk than a mildly obese person that gained some weight. Interesting.

I agree with you that diet soda is probably a non-issue relative to obesity. I just noticed that comment as it seems that every other time a poster rebukes something with anecdotal evidence, it is usually swept aside as meaningless.

On topic, you say that there is correlation and you think that weight and health are linked, yet then use your own experiences as how they're not linked. I guess Im just not understanding your opinion on this. Or maybe I do. Obesity can have significant effects on health, but its not the be all and end all of overall health. Closer?

Fat people are great props. Who needs a fit front line if they take up the whole field?

As a fat guy myself, I think it's nice that Dakka can have a size-related conversation without everyone throwing around insults for once.

Of course, there are two people in this thread who think it's fine... but the Modquisition will be knocking on their doors momentarily.

*report*

Eric

Khornholio wrote:Maybe this is something we can all agree on....

Make the world go round by altering gravity in some way with their bottom's mass?

Australia is still fatter than the US. It's a win in either case.

Modquisition on: lets drop the derogatory stuff about fat people ok, unless its inventive and really funny of course.