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Nurglitch wrote:My ass is so pretentious that it waxes its moustachios.

Oh so that's why. In growing hairs down there ey. Now I don't blame you. Ouch.

Cool. I shall have to try that. You guys have me cracking up

Chrysaor686 wrote:

Ktulhut wrote:PERFECT spelling is nearly impossible in online forums, as you type quickly without thinking very hard, so it's stream-of-thought most of the time.

This isn't a chatroom. You have plenty of time to go over everything you have written, and you can spend as much time as you please correcting your spelling and grammar mistakes. Spelling has never really been a problem for me, but I do find myself having to reword sentences because I use some words too often. I proofread my posts even after I've posted them, and will edit them numerous times until I achieve my desired result for every single post I leave on the forums.

And now I find myself smack-bang in the middle of the argument, when I thought I was clearly on your side.

You can spend as much time proof-reading and editing as you like, but if you really spend too much time doing it you are, IMO, a bit OCD. A basic grasp of the english language, common courtesy and a very quick proof-read and edit should be enough.

whatwhat wrote:
I think at least in any society I want to be a part of looking down on those you can label an ass should be generally accepted.

But why should be forced to agree with your judgment by refusing to label it pretentious? Are you claiming to be an objective judge of who is and is not an ass? Because that's definitely pretentious.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Ktulhut wrote:A basic grasp of the english language, common courtesy and a very quick proof-read and edit should be enough.

This. If someone mocks or questions your spelling or grammar, then you should examine whatever was mocked and determine whether or not it needs work, and if you want to work on it. If the answer to either question is no, then the person is either a pedant, or you're lazy and should take the criticism in stride.

dogma wrote:

whatwhat wrote:
I think at least in any society I want to be a part of looking down on those you can label an ass should be generally accepted.

But why should be forced to agree with your judgment by refusing to label it pretentious? Are you claiming to be an objective judge of who is and is not an ass? Because that's definitely pretentious.

Label what pretentious?

Your judgment regarding any given person's status as an ass.

So your question is: Why should you be forced to agree with my judgement by refusing to label my judgement regarding any given person's status as an ass, pretentious?

Yes. Given that the label 'pretentious' has a negative connotation I'm assuming that no one would use it to label something that they agreed with.

So by me labeling someone an ass, I am being pretentious. And since I claimed pretentiousness was a common quality of an ass, I am therefore being an ass. Yeh I get. Very clever Alan Partridge. But as I was saying, theres a level of pretentiousness which should be acceptable without being an ass, to protect the right of someone wanting to call someone being pretentious, an ass.

Any good, or do we want to make this paradox any more stupid up in here?

whatwhat wrote:
But as I was saying, theres a level of pretentiousness which should be acceptable without being an ass, to protect the right of someone wanting to call someone being pretentious, an ass.

I'm more inclined to suppose that insulting names like 'ass' aren't really all that important. Everyone behaves as what could be called an ass at some point in their lives, just like everyone behaves with pretension at some point in their lives. The real issue, as with being insulted for your grammar, comes down to whether or not the target of the insult agrees with the judgment, or cares to prevent it from being accurate.

I've known plenty of people who went out of their way to be asses to most people; reveling in it all the way.

dogma wrote:I've known plenty of people who went out of their way to be asses to most people; reveling in it all the way.

Hey. So have I.

I'd just like to state that outside this thread I have seen peoples' spelling or grammar being mocked all of about twice here on dakka, when it genuinely was bad and if memory serves, it was someone who usually posted well-made messages being tired or drunk or somesuch.

I would also like to state that I have very little formal education, and am in fact a high-school drop out. So any pride I take in my writing abilty, is, IMO justified, because I largely taught myself the finer points of the language.

Ktulhut wrote:And now I find myself smack-bang in the middle of the argument, when I thought I was clearly on your side.

You can spend as much time proof-reading and editing as you like, but if you really spend too much time doing it you are, IMO, a bit OCD. A basic grasp of the english language, common courtesy and a very quick proof-read and edit should be enough.

Oh, I'm quite OCD. Even so, a message board is a great place to work on your awful writing skills (if they are indeed awful) with no fear of reprisal.

The problem that most people have is that anyone with awful spelling or grammar just doesn't care, and they make absolutely no effort towards improving their writing ability. If you don't care about how your thoughts are presented, then why should they matter at all? Generally, if you can't even take a small amount of extra time to capitalize and punctuate your sentences, or you think that using acronyms and shortening words to single letters is completely acceptable, then you didn't spend any time at all giving genuine thought towards the subject at hand, and you deserve to be ignored (at best).

Chrysaor686 wrote:
Oh, I'm quite OCD. Even so, a message board is a great place to work on your awful writing skills (if they are indeed awful) with no fear of reprisal.

Hey, if you can admit to it, I can accept it.

The problem that most people have is that anyone with awful spelling or grammar just doesn't care, and they make absolutely no effort towards improving their writing ability. If you don't care about how your thoughts are presented, then why should they matter at all? Generally, if you can't even take a small amount of extra time to capitalize and punctuate your sentences, or you think that using acronyms and shortening words to single letters is completely acceptable, then you didn't spend any time at all giving genuine thought towards the subject at hand, and you deserve to be ignored (at best).

I concur. Hence my statement that:

Ktulhut wrote:I would also like to state that I have very little formal education, and am in fact a high-school drop out. So any pride I take in my writing abilty, is, IMO justified, because I largely taught myself the finer points of the language.

Chrysaor686 wrote:If you don't care about how your thoughts are presented, then why should they matter at all?

You are assuming that everyone considers spelling and grammar important to the presentation of a point. Which isn't the case.

If Isaac Newton gave presentations in the style of Mr T, should the people listening have dismissed everything he said since he didn't care how it was presented?

Or is what someone says/write more important than how they say/write it?

No, because whilst Mr. T uses informal language, he PITIES THE FOOL who doesn't even try to use basic grammar.

So long as Newton continues to be grammatically correct and rhetorically persuasive when he engages in code-switching, then it's not going to harm his point. Conversely, if you attempt to engage in code-switching but fail to follow the grammatical and stylistic rules properly, the content you are attempting to convey will be lost in the noise you are creating.

Nurglitch wrote:So long as Newton continues to be grammatically correct and rhetorically persuasive when he engages in code-switching, then it's not going to harm his point. Conversely, if you attempt to engage in code-switching but fail to follow the grammatical and stylistic rules properly, the content you are attempting to convey will be lost in the noise you are creating.

Forget about any lost meaning. That's not the point.

As Chrysaor686 said anything which disregards presentation deserves to be "ignored (at best)". Which means Newton could get his message across but by making no effort in it's presentation, still have his point disregarded by Chrysaor686's ideals.

That is the point: If you fail to produce any easily recognizable signal, regardless of whatever dialect you choose to use, that signal will be lost. After all, reciprocity is a basic part of communication. If you aren't willing to make yourself easily understood, I'm likely to reciprocate the effort in decoding you.

I've just noticed that everyone now debating this issue is using pretty good english.


I am amused by this.

Nurglitch wrote:That is the point: If you fail to produce any easily recognizable signal, regardless of whatever dialect you choose to use, that signal will be lost. After all, reciprocity is a basic part of communication. If you aren't willing to make yourself easily understood, I'm likely to reciprocate the effort in decoding you.

No. You've missed my point.

Newton is giving a lecture. Everyone in the room gets the message he is trying to send out. He makes no effort to present it in a decent manor. By what Chrysaor686 said, his message should be ignored by everyone in that room.


I also disagree, by the way, with the idea that someone who has paid no attention to the presentation of something has most likely not paid any attention to the subject. How about a chef who cooks food to perfection yet throws it on the plate afterwards, does this make it taste worse?

whatwhat wrote:

Chrysaor686 wrote:If you don't care about how your thoughts are presented, then why should they matter at all?

You are assuming that everyone considers spelling and grammar important to the presentation of a point. Which isn't the case.

If Isaac Newton gave presentations in the style of Mr T, should the people listening have dismissed everything he said since he didn't care how it was presented?

Or is what someone says/write more important than how they say/write it?

I covered this already, but I'll go ahead and repeat it.

Again: in general, if you can't take the time to present your thoughts properly (when you have as much time as you could possibly ask for), then you don't care enough about the subject at hand to give it any deep or meaningful thought. If you don't take pride in the presentation of your ideas, then chances are that you don't really care if people pay them any attention. I've found that people who can't be bothered with correct grammar (at the very least) don't really have any profound ideas worth reading through, and it is incredibly rare for them to contribute anything meaningful to a conversation. Is that cold and pretentious? Yes. But I'll be damned if it isn't true.

Also, Mr. T is a bit of a bad example, as he doesn't have particularly bad grammar or speaking skills. His speech is a bit segmented and rough, but I have no doubt that intelligent ideas presented in his form of speech would be completely viable.

whatwhat wrote:I also disagree, by the way, with the idea that someone who has paid no attention to the presentation of something has most likely not paid any attention to the subject. How about a chef who cooks food to perfection yet throws it on the plate afterwards, does this make it taste worse?

"Hey look, Leonardo Da vinci hasn't even framed this canvas"
"throw it in the skip!"

Kind of a failed policy to have.

whatwhat wrote:
Newton is giving a lecture. Everyone in the room gets the message he is trying to send out. He makes no effort to present it in a decent manor. By what Chrysaor686 said, his message should be ignored by everyone in that room.

There's quite a difference between informal verbal language (which I assume is what you mean, since you've stated that everyone can understand this hypothetical Newton) and half-assed typing. Don't try and say they're the same thing, because they're not.

I also disagree, by the way, with the idea that someone who has paid no attention to the presentation of something has most likely not paid any attention to the subject. How about a chef who cooks food to perfection yet throws it on the plate afterwards, does this make it taste worse?

I think the chef example might be a bad one, because it's been proven that presentation is a MAJOR part of meal enjoyment.

whatwhat wrote:

whatwhat wrote:I also disagree, by the way, with the idea that someone who has paid no attention to the presentation of something has most likely not paid any attention to the subject. How about a chef who cooks food to perfection yet throws it on the plate afterwards, does this make it taste worse?

Name one legitimate high-end chef that isn't incredibly meticulous about the presentation of food.

People who take care in creating their work will always care about it's presentation, at least to a certain degree.

Ktulhut wrote:

whatwhat wrote:
Newton is giving a lecture. Everyone in the room gets the message he is trying to send out. He makes no effort to present it in a decent manor. By what Chrysaor686 said, his message should be ignored by everyone in that room.

There's quite a difference between informal verbal language (which I assume is what you mean, since you've stated that everyone can understand this hypothetical Newton) and half-assed typing. Don't try and say they're the same thing, because they're not.

The point is by Chrysaor686's satndards something deserves to be disregarded based on presentation even if it us understandable. Doesn't matter if it's verbal language, informal typing or peruvian pan pipe orchestra.

Chrysaor686 wrote:Name one legitimate high-end chef that isn't incredibly meticulous about the presentation of food.

not the point.

The phrase 'don't judge a book by it's cover' comes to mind.

Seriously, learn the difference between code-switching and speaking poorly. One classic example is so-called "ebonics". Ebonics is not an example of people speaking English poorly, but in people speaking a dialect of English with its own grammatical rules and lexicon. If Isaac Newton described his theory of gravity in Ebonics rather than English, and did so properly according to both its rules for grammar and its styles of rhetoric, then he would convey his ideas in a way that only an idiot would ignore. It would be no different from Newton's ideas being presented persuasively in Latin or French.

Now if Newton did this poorly, failing to use proper Ebonics grammar, or perhaps even in a grammatically correct but rhetorically limp-wristed, then the audience would be entitled to shrug and ignore him. It's not nice, it's not efficient, and I've been on the receiving end more times than I would have liked to be, most annoyingly when I was delivering my thesis defense about how the so-called Problem of Consciousness only persisted because of a peculiar stylistic quirk of language.

But unless your audience has some additional motivation to pay attention to what you say, you're competing for their attention and will have to present your ideas not only in a legible and understandable way, but in an attractive and persuasive way.

Of course, we could always say that the fact that you're disagreeing with me simply means that you haven't looked past my grammar and style to see the real message, the beautiful content that you would acclaim truth if only you took the time and patience to unearth.

Incidentally, my ass needs a monocle so it can look rich.

whatwhat wrote:The point is by Chrysaor686's satndards something deserves to be disregarded based on presentation even if it us understandable. Doesn't matter if it's verbal language, informal typing or peruvian pan pipe orchestra.

if you are writing liek this then ur probly not worth listening 2.

Verbal language is different, because it's instantaneous. There is no time given to perfect presentation of speech in most cases, while message boards give you literally all the time you could possibly hope for. Not taking five extra seconds to capitalize words and punctuate sentences directly correlates to how much you care about what you're discussing.

I just realized that the board itself recognizes this, and corrects you if you're not willing to spell out three-letter words.

whatwhat wrote:
The point is by Chrysaor686's satndards something deserves to be disregarded based on presentation even if it us understandable. Doesn't matter if it's verbal language, informal typing or peruvian pan pipe orchestra.

Yes, he has made an over-generalisation. So have you.

A badly written forum post is not easily understood. It requires conscious effort on the part of the reader, who has no obligation/desire to read something that's hard to read. You can just run your eyes over a post like any of these, and absorb the information without conscious effort.

Ktulhut wrote:

whatwhat wrote:
The point is by Chrysaor686's satndards something deserves to be disregarded based on presentation even if it us understandable. Doesn't matter if it's verbal language, informal typing or peruvian pan pipe orchestra.

Yes, he has made an over-generalisation. So have you.

A badly written forum post is not easily understood. It requires conscious effort on the part of the reader, who has no obligation/desire to read something that's hard to read. You can just run your eyes over a post like any of these, and absorb the information without conscious effort.

Aiagn the pinot is not aubot udnrestndnig. as you can see, my sleplnig in tihs secntnace is afwul yet you can sltil unersntd me.

Now if I wrote a scentence like that with the truw answer to life the universe and everything in it Chrysaor686 would have missed it since his policy tells him to ignore it.

Get it now?