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I think this is definitely only a partial list of forces, as from the BFG fluff standpoint the listing of 2 battlships, 2 grand cruisers, and 1 battle cruiser is a woefully small force as well. There would be dozens of cruisers, light cruisers, and escorts of various types, to say nothing of the transports that would be following in their wake.

Well, this is the crux of the matter: the entire crusade is supposed to be going on in secret, particularly from the Sectors that are supplying it.

Personally, I think the idea is an oxymoron. If you have enough people for it to succeed, it's not going to be a secret long. If you have few enough people for it to be secret, you can't possibly win.

(though you left out the rogue trader's forces which seemingly include 5 cruisers.)

Practically, this list is probably the best army you can put together and expect total secrecy, even with Inquisitorial backing. Any given planet would probably be mincemeat, but dividing it into three fronts and trying to fight across the entire sector with it is probably near impossible.

BaronIveagh wrote:Recorded Contingents of the Adepta Sororitas
Order of the Valorous Heart: 1 Commandery (approx 200 sisters)
Order of the Bloody Rose: 4 Commanderies (approx 800 sisters)
Order of the Argent Shroud: 1 Preceptory (1000 sisters)
Order of the Fiery Tear: 1 Mission (a few squads)
Order of the Crimson Oath: 2 Missions (a few more squads)

To further the point, these numbers are not an approximation but the maximum number of Sisters who might be deployed. Indeed, the vast majority of Orders are unable to field a full Commandery, let alone a Preceptory.

Æscholt wrote:

BaronIveagh wrote:Recorded Contingents of the Adepta Sororitas
Order of the Valorous Heart: 1 Commandery (approx 200 sisters)
Order of the Bloody Rose: 4 Commanderies (approx 800 sisters)
Order of the Argent Shroud: 1 Preceptory (1000 sisters)
Order of the Fiery Tear: 1 Mission (a few squads)
Order of the Crimson Oath: 2 Missions (a few more squads)

To further the point, these numbers are not an approximation but the maximum number of Sisters who might be deployed. Indeed, the vast majority of Orders are unable to field a full Commandery, let alone a Preceptory.

Argent Shroud, Bloody Rose, and Valorous Heart are major orders-- their numbers are, at bare minimum, into the tens if not hundreds of thousands (and that's the lowest end of the spectrum-- I estimate that they're in the millions at least). While minor orders MIGHT be that small, there's no real evidence that the majority of them are. The information we have is incredibly vague-- even a rough estimate of the total number of Sororitas is impossible.

Would the size of a crusade not depend on the estimated threat?
Do we have a list of the opposing forces too?

Until we know what these units are facing, no way to decide theyre too few.

Melissia wrote:

Æscholt wrote:To further the point, these numbers are not an approximation but the maximum number of Sisters who might be deployed. Indeed, the vast majority of Orders are unable to field a full Commandery, let alone a Preceptory.

Argent Shroud, Bloody Rose, and Valorous Heart are major orders-- their numbers are, at bare minimum, into the tens if not hundreds of thousands (and that's the lowest end of the spectrum-- I estimate that they're in the millions at least). While minor orders MIGHT be that small, there's no real evidence that the majority of them are. The information we have is incredibly vague-- even a rough estimate of the total number of Sororitas is impossible.

There are three Major Orders, each of which has "several thousand warriors". Not "tens if not hundreds or thousands", but several thousand. To me, this indicates the fighting strength for each major Order to be somewhat less than 10 000.
So, while the Orders of the Argent Shroud, Bloody Rose and Valorous Heart might be able to field such numbers (assuming that noe of the Orders of Our Martyred Lady, Sacred Rose and Ebon Chalice are major Orders instead), they still would not have fielded more, as a Preceptory numbers "up to 1,000 Battle Sisters" and a Commandery "up to 200".
And regarding other Orders, the "many lesser sisterhoods" that aren't part of the big 3 have each "around a hundred or so Battle Sisters", far deficient of the 200 necessary for the maximum size Commandery.

As an aside, taking "many" to mean "1 000" and "several" to mean "10" (which is somewhat overestimating things in my book, but yours may vary), we get a result of approximately 130 000 Battle Sisters in the Imperium, which is even fewer than the number of Space Marines.

Æscholt wrote:There are three Major Orders

Well, there went all of your credibility.

For the record, by the way, the Major Orders Militant of the Adepta Sororitas are as follows:

Order of the Argent Shroud
Order of the Bloody Rose
Order of the Ebon Chalice
Order of the Fiery Heart (later renamed Order of Our Martyred Lady)
Order of the Sacred Rose
Order of the Valorous Heart

As for numbers, the major orders vary over time, from a few thousand to many thousands depending on the fortune of the Order at that given time. That is ALL we know. There's no context to reveal what they mean by "many thousands" (and yes, that is the exact quote, there is no "several thousand warriors" in the codex). Is nine thousand many thousands, or several? Well, we don't know. Is a hundred thousand many thousands? Undoubtedly.

Well, everyone picked up on the word 'notable,' but what about 'outset'? If those were the forces at the beginning of the crusade it is entirely possible that many more arrived later on, as is pretty standard. They may have had less than 1 million at the outset, but what about the 'midset' or 'endset'?

Of course, it could also mean that there were less later on, after casualties...

Melissia wrote:

Æscholt wrote:There are three Major Orders

Well, there went all of your credibility.

Are you sure that wasn't yours?

Warhammer 40,000 rulebook, 5th Edition.
Page 120, "The Sisters of Battle" section, second paragraph:There are three major Orders of Adepta Sororitas, the fighting strength of each numbering several thousand warriors, as well as many lesser sisterhoods comprised of around a hundred or so Battle Sisters.

Melissia wrote:For the record, by the way, the Major Orders Militant of the Adepta Sororitas are as follows:

Order of the Argent Shroud
Order of the Bloody Rose
Order of the Ebon Chalice
Order of the Fiery Heart (later renamed Order of Our Martyred Lady)
Order of the Sacred Rose
Order of the Valorous Heart

As for numbers, the major orders vary over time, from a few thousand to many thousands. That is ALL we know. There's no context to reveal what they mean by "many thousands" (and yes, that is the exact quote, there is no "several thousand warriors" in the codex). Is nine thousand many thousands, or several? Is a hundred thousand many thousands? Undoubtedly.

As we continue, would you be so kind as so cite page references for your statements? If you are going to just brush my quotes aside in the guise of "credibility", then I think I deserve to know where yours are coming from.
I would personally have assume that the three major Orders were the Order of the Ebon Chalice, the Order of the Argent Shroud, and the Order of Valorous Heart. They, along with the Order of Our Martyred Lady, were the initial four Orders Militant after the convents were divided (Codex: Witch Hunters, page 6), but the Order of Our Martyred Lady suffered "grievous" losses on Armageddon (C:WH, page 7), so I would imagine that they would be someone reduced in number.

Yes, actually I would be so kind.

Codex: Witch Hunters, Page 6.

The rulebook contradicts every piece of fluff for the Sisters ever released, so I count that as a clerical error rather htan a changed piece of fluff until I see some evidence to the contrary (I haven't).

Rulebook>Codex: Witch Hunters, Melissia.


Fluff was altered, deal with it.

Kanluwen wrote:Rulebook>Codex: Witch Hunters, Melissia.


Fluff was altered, deal with it.

Except of course that the codex overrides the rulebook when the two conflict.

The codex is still the primary fluff source for each army, deal with it.


Also? This isn't a retcon, it's just a typo.

Melissia wrote:Yes, actually I would be so kind.
Codex: Witch Hunters, Page 6.
The rulebook contradicts every piece of fluff for the Sisters ever released, so I count that as a clerical error rather htan a changed piece of fluff until I see some evidence to the contrary (I haven't).

Uh-huh.
So, when the phrase "major Order" fails to appear on that page, it obviously means that there are 6. When your "many thousands" quote actually reads "numbers within the Orders Militant waxed and waned, varying from a couple of thousand warriors to many thousands", that clearly means that there are in fact millions of Sisters in the Orders.
And when background information in the main rulebook, published five years after the relevant codex was released, gives us sufficient information to make a rough estimate as to the total number of Adepta Sororitas, that fluff is undoubtedly a clerical error.


Melissia, you are free to discount whatever elements of GW's fluff you want for the sake of your own personal canon, but the background sections of whatever books Games Workshop put out are still part of the 'official' canon, which is what I understood we were discussing here.

Melissia wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:Rulebook>Codex: Witch Hunters, Melissia.


Fluff was altered, deal with it.

Except of course that the codex overrides the rulebook when the two conflict.

The codex is still the primary fluff source for each army Alpharius, deal with it.


Also? This isn't a retcon, it's just a typo.

Actually, an army book is not "the primary fluff source" when the army in question doesn't have a 'current' Codex.


But good try.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Oh, and also?

"The Codex overrides the Rulebook when the two conflict" isn't true.

It's only true when the Codex is more current than the Rulebook".

They even say as much in the latest WHFB rulebook.

Æscholt wrote:So, when the phrase "major Order" fails to appear on that page

Even by my standards, you are being unbelievably dense. So apparently you didn't actually read the text? Because you know, it mentions these six long before it ever mentions the Minor Orders. And of course the fact that it says "Though the original six orders are by far the most numerous [...] the new Lesser Orders Militant, or Orders Minoris[...]" in the section about minor orders rather strongly defines the original six as the major orders, and other "subsidiary" orders as the minor/lesser orders.

You are wrong. Deal with it.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Kanluwen wrote:They even say as much in the latest WHFB rulebook.

Wrong game system, Joe.

Melissia wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:Rulebook>Codex: Witch Hunters, Melissia.


Fluff was altered, deal with it.

Except of course that the codex overrides the rulebook when the two conflict.

The codex is still the primary fluff source for each army Alpharius, deal with it.

I'm sorry, what are you talking about, and why are you addressing it to me?

Wrong name.

Melissia wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:They even say as much in the latest WHFB rulebook.

Wrong game system, Joe.

Speaks to the creators' ideas of how their system works, cupcake.

You can whine all you want, but Sisters have had their background revised. Probably because GW is trying to find exactly what they want to do with an army that really has no place on or even near the battlefield other than to satisfy some ridiculous cliche of gaming that if you have males, you'll also need "Hurr, Boobedwarriors!".

You can either deal with it and stop crying about it(you know--the grown up way to do things) or you can throw a temper tantrum anytime someone cites the revised background GW put out.

Kanluwen wrote:Speaks to the creators' ideas of how their system works, cupcake.

Yes, their game system-- WHFB. Not their other game system, 40k.

Melissia wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:Speaks to the creators' ideas of how their system works, cupcake.

Yes, their game system-- WHFB. Not their other game system, 40k.

And yet, considering they use the same basic system and ideals for each when conflicts arise...

Kanluwen wrote:

Melissia wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:Speaks to the creators' ideas of how their system works, cupcake.

Yes, their game system-- WHFB. Not their other game system, 40k.

And yet, considering they use the same basic system and ideals for each when conflicts arise...

The system 40k uses is "if you can't agree just roll dice to decide". Here's mine:

Melissia wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:

Melissia wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:Speaks to the creators' ideas of how their system works, cupcake.

Yes, their game system-- WHFB. Not their other game system, 40k.

And yet, considering they use the same basic system and ideals for each when conflicts arise...

The system 40k uses is "if you can't agree just roll dice to decide". Here's mine:

Pretty sure your way of dealing with any kind of disagreements is:


You bring no evidence, outside of something that has been retconned, and do nothing but stubbornly insist that you're right--when it's clearly been y'know...retconned.

Your argument for "a typo" is ridiculous, given that a typo when basically copy/pasting the same background text that's appeared for years in the Codex: Witchhunters is pretty ridiculous.

They purposely changed the background. End of story.

What's interesting is that everyone is arguing over how many battle sisters might be there, but not one is complaining how few space marines there are.

Reguardless of how many sisters a order might, feasibly field, there are also more wars going on then this one: One would imagine that the sisters not here are involved in any one of the millions of wars the Imperium runs daily.

Remember that other then the nameless notable IG units that start the list and some of the AdMech units, almost all of these would have probably come from Ixnaid, Scarus, and Calixis Sectors. These may represent what local commands could spare.

Hi guys!

Remember when this thread was about the Jericho Reach Crusade? I do. Such fond memories...

So does anyone else think that since the forces were described as 'at the Outset' that there were possibly more later on?

Modquisition on.

Dakka Rule #1 applies. Politeness IS required. You can argue the points without insulting other posters. If you can't do that then not posting on this particular thread is your best option.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Just as a side note, the Sabbat Crusade had over 2B IG assigned to it (sourcebook Sabbat Crusade Handbook detailing said crusade's capmaigns and major battles).

Fiend wrote:Hi guys!

Remember when this thread was about the Jericho Reach Crusade? I do. Such fond memories...

So does anyone else think that since the forces were described as 'at the Outset' that there were possibly more later on?

Yes. The Tranch War was described as having single landings be a quarter million-- what a single landing is is hard to say, but it could very well be a single trip by the various orbital lander ships dropping off a quarter million, then going back up to fetch more for the next landing. The Tranch War was (And I suppose technically still is) almost the definition of a meat grinder war after all.

If this was ALL the crusade has, it's a very minor one to say the least.

BaronIveagh wrote:What's interesting is that everyone is arguing over how many battle sisters might be there, but not one is complaining how few space marines there are.

Reguardless of how many sisters a order might, feasibly field, there are also more wars going on then this one: One would imagine that the sisters not here are involved in any one of the millions of wars the Imperium runs daily.

Remember that other then the nameless notable IG units that start the list and some of the AdMech units, almost all of these would have probably come from Ixnaid, Scarus, and Calixis Sectors. These may represent what local commands could spare.

"How few Space Marines there are" is pretty much the norm though, Baron. They don't usually gather up full Chapters worth of them for campaigns. The Sabbat Worlds Crusade, in full swing, had maybe 400 Marines totalled--and the majority of them were in the form of the Iron Snakes and White Scars doing whatever they felt like.

The only real campaign I can think of, in recent memory, wherein full Chapters took to the field all at once?
The 13th Black Crusade.

Fiend wrote:Hi guys!

Remember when this thread was about the Jericho Reach Crusade? I do. Such fond memories...

So does anyone else think that since the forces were described as 'at the Outset' that there were possibly more later on?

Ok, Kanwulan, now, consider how many Space Marines there were compared to IG. Do you see the oddity I'm driving at here?

The problem is this crusade is fairly 'new' by Imperial Standards, only about 30 years old. And it's on three fronts, so all numbers get divided by 3.

For those unsure of the opposition, once again: 'nids, Tau, fortress worlds manned by CSM. Do you think that any of these besides tau will be showing up in sizes other then large? The nids have seemingly rolled up the Northern (Orpheus Salient) front almost back to the the Imperium held warp portal. CSMs seem content to have the Imperium come to them for the moment, and the Tau are still massing for their counter offensive, but it's looking big.

BaronIveagh wrote:

Fiend wrote:Hi guys!

Remember when this thread was about the Jericho Reach Crusade? I do. Such fond memories...

So does anyone else think that since the forces were described as 'at the Outset' that there were possibly more later on?

Ok, Kanluwen, now, consider how many Space Marines there were compared to IG. Do you see the oddity I'm driving at here?

The problem is this crusade is fairly 'new' by Imperial Standards, only about 30 years old. And it's on three fronts, so all numbers get divided by 3.

For those unsure of the opposition, once again: 'nids, Tau, fortress worlds manned by CSM. Do you think that any of these besides Tau will be showing up in sizes other then large? The nids have seemingly rolled up the Northern (Orpheus Salient) front almost back to the the Imperium held warp portal. CSMs seem content to have the Imperium come to them for the moment, and the Tau are still massing for their counter offensive, but it's looking big.

It's a pretty easy dilemma to solve though. What Chapters are involved in the Jericho Reach Crusade? Is it in an area where there's large numbers of recruiting worlds for these Chapters, etc etc.

Using Kastorel-Novem as an example--the Raven Guard devoted two whole Companies(which is absurdly generous of them--as they usually just field two to three squads of specialists and a number of Scouts) to the campaign.
Why?

Because if they broke past Kastorel-Novem and kept building strength, the Waagh! would be heading right for Deliverance.

BaronIveagh wrote:They listed 36 guard units as being in the initial crusade. Math at 5,000 men per regiment was 180,000 men. 10,000 was 360,000 men.

Currently there seems to be some back peddling and the FFG apologists are offering that it will be like the IG regiments in Codex: Armageddon not being all the IG regiments involved. (I don't have it handy to argue this point. I thought that most of the regiments and chapters were listed, but maybe I'm mis-remembering it)

Until I have the book in hand though, I'm now rather skeptical about this whole thing.

Very very late and probably already answered, but I thought Guard regiments were larger than that?