Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

If it's on the rim of a rift, then that's entirely different than a world being -in- a rift, as you first stated was the case. A sentient Daemon world IN the warp could exist as an entity until it was destroyed by an outside factor. A sentient Daemon world near a rift could -still- exist in realspace for short periods of about a week or so, before becoming too weak and having to phase out of reality again.

Gorskar.da.Lost wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:

Fiend wrote:I love the Emperor's finest as much as the next guy, but I wouldn't call that a cakewalk. Not if manned by traitor Astartes.

I think the Astartes presence is large, but not out of hand. It seems reasonable for a large crusade, especially with the number of chapters contributing. The numbers do seem rather large when comparing to the Guard presence though...

Astartes are trash in static, defensive position fights. That's why, even on defense, most of the Loyalist Astartes tend towards "Let the Guard bear the brunt of it, then we drop pod a force down to shore up weakspots" as strategies.

I'd have to disagree there, there are several chapters/legions that are dedicated to that sort of fight. The Iron Warriors' fortress worlds, for example, are pretty much one giant network of strongpoints, trenches, artillery positions and other assorted nastiness. Granted, they have several tens of millions of conscripted/enslaved soldiers working for them on each planet, but the point still stands. No cakewalk for Astartes, regardless of their alignment.

There's two Chapters/Legions "dedicated to that sort of fight".

Iron Warriors, who excel at knocking things down, and the Imperial Fists, who excel at actually building things to resist being knocked down.

And those "strongpoints, trenches, artillery positions and other assorted nastiness" are defended by cultists and traitor guardsmen/fanatical zealots and controlled from a command center with the Iron Warriors directing the fight.

One drop assault on the people directing the fight, and it becomes a mop up operation against bunkers. Far, far, far less dangerous than assaulting an Iron Warrior directed killzone.

That's strange..Only 1600 marines? I think I killed more than that.

Kanluwen wrote:

Gorskar.da.Lost wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:

Fiend wrote:I love the Emperor's finest as much as the next guy, but I wouldn't call that a cakewalk. Not if manned by traitor Astartes.

I think the Astartes presence is large, but not out of hand. It seems reasonable for a large crusade, especially with the number of chapters contributing. The numbers do seem rather large when comparing to the Guard presence though...

Astartes are trash in static, defensive position fights. That's why, even on defense, most of the Loyalist Astartes tend towards "Let the Guard bear the brunt of it, then we drop pod a force down to shore up weakspots" as strategies.

I'd have to disagree there, there are several chapters/legions that are dedicated to that sort of fight. The Iron Warriors' fortress worlds, for example, are pretty much one giant network of strongpoints, trenches, artillery positions and other assorted nastiness. Granted, they have several tens of millions of conscripted/enslaved soldiers working for them on each planet, but the point still stands. No cakewalk for Astartes, regardless of their alignment.

There's two Chapters/Legions "dedicated to that sort of fight".

Iron Warriors, who excel at knocking things down, and the Imperial Fists, who excel at actually building things to resist being knocked down.

And those "strongpoints, trenches, artillery positions and other assorted nastiness" are defended by cultists and traitor guardsmen/fanatical zealots and controlled from a command center with the Iron Warriors directing the fight.

One drop assault on the people directing the fight, and it becomes a mop up operation against bunkers. Far, far, far less dangerous than assaulting an Iron Warrior directed killzone.

I admitted the presence of Cultists/traitor Guardsmen in my post. Iron Warriors are also supreme fortress builders, easily comparable with the Fists, so their being typecast as "fortress breakers" is only one part of their military aspect. It is in a great part of their fluff, after all.
Also, referring to your drop-pod attack, they tried that on Istvaan, and the result was a stalemate. I won't say it wwas a massacre there, because technically it was due to the second "loyalist" wave that the Imperial Marines lost, but the point still stands.
Third, Iron Warriors do not use a single command point to control an entire planetary defence, as that opens them up to an orbital bombardment ending the campaign just like that, let alone Drop-podding Astartes. I can't remember it all that well, but I believe the previous CSM codex had some good fluff on Iron Warrior tactics, and generally speaking they have then numbers to be able to field more than one command centre, and that's not counting the SMs they have garrisoned in key locations, where conscripted infantry and daemon engines just aren't enough.

I can get what you're saying, and it makes excellent tactical sense, I just feel you are oversimplifying it too much. Sorry if I rambled, I am yet to put together a coherent set of ideas in word form. It was hell for my teachers.

Gorskar.da.Lost wrote:
I admitted the presence of Cultists/traitor Guardsmen in my post. Iron Warriors are also supreme fortress builders, easily comparable with the Fists, so their being typecast as "fortress breakers" is only one part of their military aspect. It is in a great part of their fluff, after all.

They're good at creating "defensive positions". These don't necessarily equate to fortresses. A fortress is a singular location intended to be defended, whereas "defensive positions" ala the Iron Warriors are lengthy defensive lines shored up and intended to be lost if necessary.

Also, referring to your drop-pod attack, they tried that on Istvaan, and the result was a stalemate. I won't say it was a massacre there, because technically it was due to the second "loyalist" wave that the Imperial Marines lost, but the point still stands.

Ehh. The Drop-Site Massacre, as an aside, is kind of a big thing. The problem is that it wasn't assaulting a defensive position, but dropping onto what was(assumed) to be an undefended, unawares force. Once the Loyalists were down, a two prong attack went into motion where the Horusians mounted an assault and they also launched an orbital bombardment against the Loyalists.

Third, Iron Warriors do not use a single command point to control an entire planetary defence, as that opens them up to an orbital bombardment ending the campaign just like that, let alone Drop-podding Astartes. I can't remember it all that well, but I believe the previous CSM codex had some good fluff on Iron Warrior tactics, and generally speaking they have the numbers to be able to field more than one command centre, and that's not counting the SMs they have garrisoned in key locations, where conscripted infantry and daemon engines just aren't enough.

Well, the command point bit is an issue too. The "original" Iron Warriors probably do recognize the vulnerability of having a single command center, but the more recent recruits have no issues with it and see no harm for it.

Kanluwen wrote:
Well, the command point bit is an issue too. The "original" Iron Warriors probably do recognize the vulnerability of having a single command center, but the more recent recruits have no issues with it and see no harm for it.

I dunno: Warsmith Honsou in Dead Sky Black Sun used fairly good defensive tactics and was a 'new' recruit. (After all, he didn't know his fortress had a 'press to self destruct' button...)

Here's the thing, guys, they've had 5,000 years to dig in. Do you think they don't have a good defenses around their warp rift, even if it was built because of fighting one another?

Kanluwen wrote:
They're good at creating "defensive positions". These don't necessarily equate to fortresses. A fortress is a singular location intended to be defended, whereas "defensive positions" ala the Iron Warriors are lengthy defensive lines shored up and intended to be lost if necessary.

An excellent point. I would say though that there is plenty of evidence for fortresses built by the Iron Warriors, and that these are in general damn difficult to break, as fortifications go. I think there's some fluff on that in the old CSM codex, as well as the old SM codex, to a certain extent. You'd probably have to check, though.

Ehh. The Drop-Site Massacre, as an aside, is kind of a big thing. The problem is that it wasn't assaulting a defensive position, but dropping onto what was(assumed) to be an undefended, unawares force. Once the Loyalists were down, a two prong attack went into motion where the Horusians mounted an assault and they also launched an orbital bombardment against the Loyalists.

Yeah, I agree, I could have found a better example. Sorry about that, it was the first thing that came to mind.
Instead, I'll use that fluff in the new CSM codex which relates to a fortress world that was created by the Iron Warriors and has resisted a great many attacks from both Chaos and Loyalist marines. I believe the current tally is 12 resisted attacks, but again, it's probably a good idea if you check that.

Well, the command point bit is an issue too. The "original" Iron Warriors probably do recognize the vulnerability of having a single command center, but the more recent recruits have no issues with it and see no harm for it.

Not really as big an issue, as the new recruits will have been trained by the original Iron Warriors. A great deal of the upper ranks in the legion are the old guard, anyway, and so would use their legion's tactics as they were originally.

BaronIveagh wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:
Well, the command point bit is an issue too. The "original" Iron Warriors probably do recognize the vulnerability of having a single command center, but the more recent recruits have no issues with it and see no harm for it.

I dunno: Warsmith Honsou in Dead Sky Black Sun used fairly good defensive tactics and was a 'new' recruit. (After all, he didn't know his fortress had a 'press to self destruct' button...)

Here's the thing, guys, they've had 5,000 years to dig in. Do you think they don't have a good defenses around their warp rift, even if it was built because of fighting one another?

Time passes differently in the Warp.

That 5,000 years real-space? It could've been 20 minutes for the planet's inhabitants.

Kanluwen wrote:
Time passes differently in the Warp.

That 5,000 years real-space? It could've been 20 minutes for the planet's inhabitants.

Or it could have totally run the other way and been 10,000 years (like in the Grey Knights novel)

BaronIveagh wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:
Time passes differently in the Warp.

That 5,000 years real-space? It could've been 20 minutes for the planet's inhabitants.

Or it could have totally run the other way and been 10,000 years (like in the Grey Knights novel)

Either way, it's a moot point as planets like Medrengard is undeniably massively fortified, showing that they must have had time to do it.