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Some people used math recently and discovered that the Crusade in the Jericho Reach (setting of the DW RPG) consists of between 200,000 - 800,000 Imperial Guard and 1600 Space Marines, divided across three fronts.

To this writer, it seems a bit far fetched, considering it's a Crusade to retake the entire sector, and other, similar Crusades typically run into the billions of guardsmen and sometimes a dozen space marine companies.


What are your thoughts on this fluff development? Is this possible even in 40k that an army outnumbered by the Union Army in the US Civil War could fight untold billions?

Space Marines are the emperors finest, the Angels of Death, none can stay their wrath

Except, of course, everyone that does.

Apart from them

As for a serious answer to this thread's subject...

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/SciFiWritersHaveNoSenseOfScale

And of course, those that don't.

Why such 'loyal' subject of the Imperium would so work against his chose soldiers is, I'm sure, beyond the understanding of the Emperor himself!

I dunno, how important is the Jericho Reach crusade? Don't know anything about the fluff on it.

If I were to engage in totally baseless speculation, maybe the Lord General leading it was outmaneuvered in political circles and received far less resources than he needed as part of a vile plot by his opponents to see him fail spectacularly.

rabidaskal wrote:I dunno, how important is the Jericho Reach crusade? Don't know anything about the fluff on it.

If I were to engage in totally baseless speculation, maybe the Lord General leading it was outmaneuvered in political circles and received far less resources than he needed as part of a vile plot by his opponents to see him fail spectacularly.

Well, it seems to be being run by the Inquisition and the local space marine chapter, which has donated seven companies, if I'm following the fluff in the book correctly, but it's sort of shady. (As in all things Inquisitorial)

Right now, they're seemingly fighting: CSM, Tau, non-chaos renegade humans, and a Tyranid 'splinter fleet' that has overrun about a quarter of the sector. With 1600 space marines and 250,000 - 800,000 IG.

As fr as 'How important?' it's about as clear as 'Why?' as the Imperium is trying to apparently see if they can win a war on 8 star hard with one hand tied behind their back.

What's their naval support? I mean, 1600 SM and even 1,000,000 IG still seem a little low in my opinion, but maybe they're just planning to "reclaim the sector" by just conducting a bunch of strategic Exterminati, coupled with quick strikes on more valuable holdings...
That's the only way I could justify it...

Is this sector or sub-sector scale forces? It's interesting, as millions of Guardsmen would be used to sieze just a single planet in some cases. It would appear they are entirely outclassed or deluded in their abilities. That or the enemey threat is also statistically minimal, as the Imperium responds to threats with equal (and greater) force.

Also are they just the vanguard for the rest of the Imperial forces?

1) Unknown, but probably small. They're supposedly taking and holding worlds as opposed to exterminatus.
2) Sector, and against Fortress worlds manned by CSMs (according to the map in book), one would hope they'ed bring millions.
3) That's Unclear at this time.

1600 Marines is in keeping with other similar values in the background (though not in keeping with some stuff, like the Macharian Heresy). 800,000 Guardsmen is nothing though. 80 Million for a sector would be more reasonable...

I'm not familiar with this crusade, but less than 1 million guardsmen seems woefully unprepared, especially if its more than one planet, excepting the instances given above, if its a preliminary force or a space oriented crusade. 1600 marines seems about right though for medium sized crusade. So what is this 'math' that was used? Was there speculation? If not, we have to assume the writer messed up his scale and we should just look the other way.

They listed 36 guard units as being in the initial crusade. Math at 5,000 men per regiment was 180,000 men. 10,000 was 360,000 men.

Currently there seems to be some back peddling and the FFG apologists are offering that it will be like the IG regiments in Codex: Armageddon not being all the IG regiments involved. (I don't have it handy to argue this point. I thought that most of the regiments and chapters were listed, but maybe I'm mis-remembering it)

Until I have the book in hand though, I'm now rather skeptical about this whole thing.

Lol, "FFG apologists"... nothing to apologize about, FFG is far more consistent than the rest of 40k

Regardless, half a million soldiers arriving in waves was mentioned in Inquisitor's Handbook. I imagine that this is only the first wave of Guard deployments, not the entirety.

BaronIveagh wrote:
To this writer, it seems a bit far fetched, considering it's a Crusade to retake the entire sector, and other, similar Crusades typically run into the billions of guardsmen and sometimes a dozen space marine companies.

a space marine company is usually a 100 marines, so a few dozen areonly 1200 or so

We have LIST Huzzah!


"The Disposition of the Forces of the God-Emperor of Mankind at the Outset of the Achillus Crusade circa 7252.777.M41:

Notable Imperial Guard Units

Cadian Shock Troops: 2 Regiments

Terkarn Armoured: 1 Regiment

Iaxian Tithe Guard: 2 Regiments

Terrax Guard: 3 Regiments

Harakoni Warhawks: 1 Regiment

Mordian Iron Guard: 1 Regiment

29th Descaal Lancers: 1 Regiment

Calixis Sector Levy

Scintillan Heavy Infantry: 2 Regiments

Scintillan Guard: 3 Regiments

Maccabian 5th Drusus's Own" Guard

Maccabian 16th Janissaries

Mortressan 14th Highlanders: 1 Regiment

Gunmetalican 13th Armoured

Volg 3rd "Mercy Bringers"

Landrian 202nd Light Infantry

Monrass 25th Scythewind Recon

Merov Penitentiary Indenture: 4 Penal Legions

Gathalamor Heavy Grenadiers: 8 Battalions

Known Adeptus Astartes Contingents

Angels Vermillion: 1 Company

Space Wolves: 1 Battle Company

White Consuls: 2 Companies

Dark Sons: 3 Companies

Grey Knights: [Restricted]

Blood Swords: 2 Companies

Relictors: 1 Special Detachment

Storm Wardens: 7 Companies

Also elements of the Death Spectres, Subjugators, Disciples of Caliban, and Iron Snakes represented in a sanctioned Crusader Company as guardians of the Holy Crusade Banner.

Recorded Contingents of the Adepta Sororitas

Order of the Valorous Heart: 1 Commandery

Order of the Bloody Rose: 4 Commanderies

Order of the Argent Shroud: 1 Preceptory

Order of the Fiery Tear: 1 Mission

Order of the Crimson Oath: 2 Missions

Recorded Contingents of the Officio Assassinorum

Assassins: [Restricted]

Recorded Contingents of the Adeptus Mechanicus

Adeptus Titanicus - Legio Venator: 3 Battle Maniples, 2 Scout Maniples

Centurio Ordinatus: 1 Ordinatus

Skitarii Tech Guard: 4 Regiments

Ordo Reductor: 2 Siege Formations

Korvath Knight Household: 2 Formations

Legio Cybernetica: 1 Division

Recorded Contingents of the Imperial Fleet

+Vessels of Note

Belial - Emperor Class Battleship

Execution - Eternal Oberon Class Battleship

Proclamation of Wrath - Vengeance Class Grand Cruiser (lost with all hands 786.M41) (including the Crusade leader, Lord Militant Achilus)

Eternal Requiem - Exorcist Class Grand Cruiser

Caelestis Dictatio - Mars Class Battlecruiser

Recorded Contingents of the Departmento Munitorum

Reclamation & Provender Army Inc:

3 Pioneer Regiments

2 Field Enforcement Regiments

4 Labour Battalions

1 Administratum Assay Corps.

Recorded Contingents of the Holy Ordos of the Inquisition

CLASSIFIED

Recorded Contingents/Miscellaneous Forces

The Vassals of Rogue Trader Kazandus Lan (5 ships of the line, equiv/ 3 Regiments Militant)"


Hmm... I hate to say it, but the way it's written makes it look like this is all they have to start with to me.

And half a million is nothing. It'd be cut to pieces as they landed. Consider that China has twenty million people reach military age every year. Triple that for a whole planet of 3 billion. Multiply it by 10, and then multiply it by 25%.

Expect resistance to be up to 150,000,000 people on the ground. Fighting an entire planet is a rough buisness.

I imagine they have titans and Navy support and OOT nukes. That should be put into account.

Sure a 8 foot tall super human is going to kill 100 lesser men just with his chest hair. But a walking battle tank thats supoused to be poking the sky with it's head is going to feth stuff up.

Not really, all those half million people need to do is create a beachhead under cover of air support and orbital bombardment. The 150,000,000, if indeed the enemy is that strong (for reference, that's several times larger than all modern military forces combined, even with military reserves added in), would be spread out over the entire planet. If they weren't, the Guard would have a weak point they could land on and fortify for the next wave, and the next wave, and the next wave, and the wave after that.

Shadowbrand wrote:I imagine they have titans and Navy support and OOT nukes. That should be put into account.

Sure a 8 foot tall super human is going to kill 100 lesser men just with his chest hair. But a walking battle tank thats supoused to be poking the sky with it's head is going to feth stuff up.

Just remember, your titans are not going in right away: they don't make drop pods in titan size. Same thing with the Ordinatus: Sure, it blasts cities to ash in one shot (when it doesn't explode and blast your army to ash with one shot) but it takes weeks to move it.

The listed navy ships would not provide good support for a landing, though they would provide excellent support for escort operations. You're looking at a lot of launch capability, but not much by way of guns.

I like the wild breech of canon with the sudden return of the Legio Cybernetica myself. Didn't they get retconned? Something about Iron Men????


Mellissa, the problem is this is the total list. Everything they have in the Crusade. Heck, it numbers the guys who dig the ditches. There are no reserves. Hell, there are only two armored regiments.

That's the problem: when those half a million men hit, that's what we have.

*Raises hand* Question.

How are Titans even carried to a battlefield? By ship are they teleported like the tech terminator armor uses?

BaronIveagh wrote:"The Disposition of the Forces of the God-Emperor of Mankind at the Outset of the Achillus Crusade circa 7252.777.M41:

Notable Imperial Guard Units

etc...

NOTABLE Guard Units

So, there must be loads more regiments that aren't worthy of note, then....


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Shadowbrand wrote:*Raises hand* Question.

How are Titans even carried to a battlefield? By ship are they teleported like the tech terminator armor uses?

Super-heavy AdMech lifters the size of city blocks, apparently. So, basically a dropship, just not a very fast one, and then the titans have to be prepped once on the ground.

Titans are moved by dropship. In *let the galaxy burn* series of short stories, two titans are landed in that way.

They have assassin support and grey knights, so supposedly that'd be a lot more to help out. Plus remember that these forces are simply Of Note. There could be millions of unspecialised troops that are not of note.

What troubles me is only 3 Pioneer Regiments and 4 Labour Battalions... thats not much of a tail, really...

Something to remember is Regiments are not consistent. The Administratum tends to measure them in some sort of combat effectiveness value, IIRC, but a regiment of Harakoni Warhawks might only be 1000 men, but every one of those is nearly at Stormtrooper level (Imperium, not Galactic Empire). The Valhallans apparently have a regiment of something like 100-150 thousand men.

ArbitorIan wrote:

BaronIveagh wrote:"The Disposition of the Forces of the God-Emperor of Mankind at the Outset of the Achillus Crusade circa 7252.777.M41:

Notable Imperial Guard Units

etc...

NOTABLE Guard Units

So, there must be loads more regiments that aren't worthy of note, then....

Point. It's likely that there are probably many times more actual regiments (and unlisted PDF forces?) taking part in the fighting, but even then it seems woefully under strength for an entire sector.

Now: this is just my interpretation, mind you:

In this context, I would assume notable not to mean that they were particularly valorous, but notable in that they represented a measurable force. (Thus we're not mentioning things like attached ogryns or ratlings or anything like that, as there are not enough of them to be worth mentioning.)



List break down:



Notable Imperial Guard Units (Since the notable units are not named, I'm interpreting this to mean there are this many units with forces worth listing)

Cadian Shock Troops: 2 Regiment

Terkarn Armoured: 1 Regiment

Iaxian Tithe Guard: 2 Regiments

Terrax Guard: 3 Regiments

Harakoni Warhawks: 1 Regiment

Mordian Iron Guard: 1 Regiment

29th Descaal Lancers: 1 Regiment



Calixis Sector Levy (PDF levies, in other words, or units raised specifically for this Crusade)

Scintillan Heavy Infantry: 2 Regiments (Nice to see heavy infantry used in 40k again.)

Scintillan Guard: 3 Regiments

Maccabian 5th Drusus's Own" Guard

Maccabian 16th Janissaries

Mortressan 14th Highlanders: 1 Regiment

Gunmetalican 13th Armoured (We only have two armored units??? Seriously?Huh?)

Volg 3rd "Mercy Bringers"

Landrian 202nd Light Infantry

Monrass 25th Scythewind Recon

Merov Penitentiary Indenture: 4 Penal Legions

Gathalamor Heavy Grenadiers: 8 Battalions



Known Adeptus Astartes Contingents (needs no explanation)

Angels Vermillion: 1 Company

Space Wolves: 1 Battle Company

White Consuls: 2 Companies

Dark Sons: 3 Companies

Grey Knights: [Restricted]

Blood Swords: 2 Companies

Relictors: 1 Special Detachment

Storm Wardens: 7 Companies

Also elements of the Death Spectres, Subjugators, Disciples of Caliban, and Iron Snakes represented in a sanctioned Crusader Company as guardians of the Holy Crusade Banner.



Recorded Contingents of the Adepta Sororitas

Order of the Valorous Heart: 1 Commandery (approx 200 sisters)

Order of the Bloody Rose: 4 Commanderies (approx 800 sisters)

Order of the Argent Shroud: 1 Preceptory (1000 sisters)

Order of the Fiery Tear: 1 Mission (a few squads)

Order of the Crimson Oath: 2 Missions (a few more squads)

Recorded Contingents of the Officio Assassinorum

Assassins: [Restricted]



Recorded Contingents of the Adeptus Mechanicus

Adeptus Titanicus - Legio Venator: 3 Battle Maniples, 2 Scout Maniples (Approximatly 9-15 Battle Titans, 6-10 scout titans)

Centurio Ordinatus: 1 Ordinatus (1 ord is still one frikkin ord, baby!)

Skitarii Tech Guard: 4 Regiments

Ordo Reductor: 2 Siege Formations (Probably equiv 2 heavy bombardment regiments IG)

Korvath Knight Household: 2 Formations (Nice to see Knights in use again)

Legio Cybernetica: 1 Division (We have just lost cabin pressure. For those who don't remember: the Legio Cybernetica is/was the adMech's war robot branch. You know, the 'forbidden silica animus'?)





Recorded Contingents of the Imperial Fleet

+Vessels of Note (Lack of cruisers would seem to be offset by the Rogue Trader listed later as having 5 ships of the line. Interestingly, no SM vessels or escort squadrons appear in this list. Storm Wardens don't have ships???)

Belial - Emperor Class Battleship

Execution Eternal - Oberon Class Battleship

Proclamation of Wrath - Vengeance Class Grand Cruiser (lost with all hands 786.M41) (including the Crusade leader, Lord Militant Achilus) [oops, i wonder how that happened?]

Eternal Requiem - Exorcist Class Grand Cruiser

Caelestis Dictatio - Mars Class Battlecruiser







Recorded Contingents of the Departmento Munitorum (These units would only be 'of note' for their valor if things have really gone wrong)

Reclamation & Provender Army Inc:

3 Pioneer Regiments

2 Field Enforcement Regiments

4 Labour Battalions

1 Administratum Assay Corps.



Recorded Contingents of the Holy Ordos of the Inquisition

CLASSIFIED



Recorded Contingents/Miscellaneous Forces

The Vassals of Rogue Trader Kazandus Lan (5 ships of the line, equiv/ 3 Regiments Militant)



Edit: Actually, Valhallan regiments are supposedly about 5,000 men, normally. The 'average' full strength IG reiment seems to lay between 3-10 thousand men.

Actually, the Legio Cybernetica were never and still aren't Silica Animus. They're Dreadnought chassis with a biological brain like a more advanced Servitor. Thats how it always was.

DapperAnarchist wrote:Actually, the Legio Cybernetica were never and still aren't Silica Animus. They're Dreadnought chassis with a biological brain like a more advanced Servitor. Thats how it always was.

The Cataphact class is basically a dreadnought chassis. Most of the others are more akin to scaled down titan designs, however, the 'Organic Camouflage' optional system implies that there are robots capable of passing as human, at least at first glance.

" What makes a Robot different from an unoccupied Dreadnought ... is its cortex. This is an artificial brain of sorts, which is constructed from artificial proteins and enzymes. This cortex is imprinted with simple maintenance and movement routines - a rudimentary 'mind'." - 40,000 Compendium, Page 97

"The Cortex: structured gobs of bioplastic, products of lost technology." - 40,000 Compendium, Page 103.

This is not a servitor and from the description contains no human tissues.

Presumably, the Space Marines would move from planet to planet one at a tie, plus, you only need 1 Scout squad for every IG company to make an unstoppable force.