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Depends on the regiment.

Assuming five full platoons per company, and then ten companies per regiment, that's still only 2750 in an infantry regiment. But I don't if five platoons in a company is light, or how many companies are in a regiment, etc.

It tends to depend on the planet the regiment was raised from, the history of the regiment, etc.

The Elysian 99th Regiment, for example, is(on paper) a complete regiment--despite them having personnel more appropriate for a Company.

Melissia wrote:Depends on the regiment.

Assuming five full platoons per company, and then ten companies per regiment, that's still only 2750 in an infantry regiment. But I don't if five platoons in a company is light, or how many companies are in a regiment, etc.

Well, if we were to look at the old guard codex, their example of half the Cadian 8th had 6-8 platoons in it (I forget now), and a lot of other stuff too. Using that, I'd say it was an all right bet that your average regiment was somewhere between 4,000 and 8,000 men.
Still, even that isn't really that much when you consider how the Imperium makes war.

So let's go the easy way for simplicity's sake.

1 regiment = 10 companies + RCS (~5,555 men)
1 company = 10 platoons + CCS (~555 men)
1 platoon = 5 squads + PCS (55 men)

Mind you that's a pure infantry force, with heavy weapons scattered throughout the various squads rather than in their own dedicated squad.

Fiend wrote:So does anyone else think that since the forces were described as 'at the Outset' that there were possibly more later on?

I think that unless the crusade goes on for a significant length of time (many decades, or slipping into the centuries), it's unlikely. Additional forces would have been listed, even if they didn't arrive on time for the kick-off.
I'm pretty sure the ridiculously small force can be attributed to a gross miscalculation of scale. Unless the crusade takes it's time and levies new regiments before leaving each conquered planet, it would be unlikely to get particularly far.
Unless of course the 40K writers ignore their error, the crusade brings the entire region to compliance and they all get home in time for Emperor-mas.

Kanluwen wrote:The only real campaign I can think of, in recent memory, wherein full Chapters took to the field all at once?
The 13th Black Crusade.

And the Third War for Armaggedon, and the defence of Ichar IV from Hive Fleet Kraken. All three happened within a 7 year period as well, although "the Time of Ending" is hardly typical.

Gorskar.da.Lost wrote:Very very late and probably already answered, but I thought Guard regiments were larger than that?

It varies greatly. Newly founded regiments can be from a few hundred men to several tens of thousands. The Valhallen 18th Light Infantry has over 120 000 men, but the "typical" number is several thousand.

Works for me.

If we take that as an average (which we will) that's a massively inefficient amount of guardsmen for the job in hand. Then again, it's likely that this was an advance regiment, or something.

Kanwulan, these chapters are involved.

Angels Vermillion,Space Wolves,White Consuls,Dark Sons, Grey Knights, Blood Swords, Relictors, Storm Wardens

Also elements of the Death Spectres, Subjugators, Disciples of Caliban, and Iron Snakes represented in a sanctioned Crusader Company as guardians of the Holy Crusade Banner. (meaning an honor guard of a squad or two from each chapter, unless I miss my guess).

The only Space Marine chapter that recruits anyplace near by are the Storm Wardens, who recruit from the Calixis Sector on the opposite side of the warp gate. And they sent seven companies, so that's a deployment of most of their chapter. The Jericho Reach has been cut off entirely from the Imperium for five thousand years.

Well, I don't know about any of the other chapters, but I know that the Space Wolves at least are numerous enough to send a lot of warriors.
However, I'd still put it at no more than 300 or so marines.

BaronIveagh wrote:Kanluwen, these chapters are involved.

Angels Vermillion,Space Wolves,White Consuls,Dark Sons, Grey Knights, Blood Swords, Relictors, Storm Wardens

Also elements of the Death Spectres, Subjugators, Disciples of Caliban, and Iron Snakes represented in a sanctioned Crusader Company as guardians of the Holy Crusade Banner. (meaning an honor guard of a squad or two from each chapter, unless I miss my guess).

The only Space Marine chapter that recruits anyplace near by are the Storm Wardens, who recruit from the Calixis Sector on the opposite side of the warp gate. And they sent seven companies, so that's a deployment of most of their chapter. The Jericho Reach has been cut off entirely from the Imperium for five thousand years.

OT really fast: Spell the name right please. It's kinda getting irksome correcting it every time.

So, in terms of the Chapters...I recognize only a good two or three of them as having any heavy background exposure to work from: Space Wolves, White Consuls, and Relictors.

Grey Knights aren't technically a Chapter(being that they're the Chamber Militant of the Ordo Malleus, and pretty much answer only to the Ordo's puritanical higher-ups etc etc), so they're not going to be something that will be easy to get some background information on, in terms of their campaign deployment--especially since they tend to be a force that is very very very rarely fielded en masse.

Disciples of Caliban I can give you some hefty information on, since they were a rarity in terms of their formation(one of the few times the High Lords of Terra have bent to an Astartes Chapter's request to have a Successor created outside of a mass Founding of Successors) and the specificity of their formation(created pretty much exclusively to hunt down Cypher).

But to put it lightly:
This Crusade could just be an aberration, in terms of Astartes support v. Guard support(Crusades tend to get alot more support from the Astartes if Traitor Astartes are present, as an aside that I've noticed).

Kanluwen wrote:
OT really fast: Spell the name right please. It's kinda getting irksome correcting it every time.

So, in terms of the Chapters...I recognize only a good two or three of them as having any heavy background exposure to work from: Space Wolves, White Consuls, and Relictors.

Grey Knights aren't technically a Chapter(being that they're the Chamber Militant of the Ordo Malleus, and pretty much answer only to the Ordo's puritanical higher-ups etc etc), so they're not going to be something that will be easy to get some background information on, in terms of their campaign deployment--especially since they tend to be a force that is very very very rarely fielded en masse.

Disciples of Caliban I can give you some hefty information on, since they were a rarity in terms of their formation(one of the few times the High Lords of Terra have bent to an Astartes Chapter's request to have a Successor created outside of a mass Founding of Successors) and the specificity of their formation(created pretty much exclusively to hunt down Cypher).

But to put it lightly:
This Crusade could just be an aberration, in terms of Astartes support v. Guard support(Crusades tend to get alot more support from the Astartes if Traitor Astartes are present, as an aside that I've noticed).

While I agree about the traitor legions = more astartes, the problem is still this force is not going to be able to make it's first planetary assault (if there is meaningful resistance. Obviously hunter gatherers are not going to be able to fight Titans very well). The Astartes are great for precise strikes and holding key objectives, but they aren't made for wars of attrition against things like the swarms of the great devourer or the military might of entire planets.

Except you're thinking of a "Fortress World manned by Chaos Marines" as being similar to say, Cadia.

It won't be. It'll be a planet that has some key strongpoints that will allow a small force to hold off a numerically superior one with minimal casualties. Cracking that kind of nut would be a cakewalk for Astartes.

I love the Emperor's finest as much as the next guy, but I wouldn't call that a cakewalk. Not if manned by traitor Astartes.

I think the Astartes presence is large, but not out of hand. It seems reasonable for a large crusade, especially with the number of chapters contributing. The numbers do seem rather large when comparing to the Guard presence though...

Fiend wrote:I love the Emperor's finest as much as the next guy, but I wouldn't call that a cakewalk. Not if manned by traitor Astartes.

I think the Astartes presence is large, but not out of hand. It seems reasonable for a large crusade, especially with the number of chapters contributing. The numbers do seem rather large when comparing to the Guard presence though...

Astartes are trash in static, defensive position fights. That's why, even on defense, most of the Loyalist Astartes tend towards "Let the Guard bear the brunt of it, then we drop pod a force down to shore up weakspots" as strategies.

Kanluwen wrote:

Fiend wrote:I love the Emperor's finest as much as the next guy, but I wouldn't call that a cakewalk. Not if manned by traitor Astartes.

I think the Astartes presence is large, but not out of hand. It seems reasonable for a large crusade, especially with the number of chapters contributing. The numbers do seem rather large when comparing to the Guard presence though...

Astartes are trash in static, defensive position fights. That's why, even on defense, most of the Loyalist Astartes tend towards "Let the Guard bear the brunt of it, then we drop pod a force down to shore up weakspots" as strategies.

I see. Your point = traitors are disadvantaged by staticness, while our Angels of Death have the advantage of the surgical strike. I'd say that's true, depending on the number traitor marines. But their numbers are usually small.

Its looking like we don't even need the Guard to win this war.

Kanluwen wrote:Except you're thinking of a "Fortress World manned by Chaos Marines" as being similar to say, Cadia.

It won't be. It'll be a planet that has some key strongpoints that will allow a small force to hold off a numerically superior one with minimal casualties. Cracking that kind of nut would be a cakewalk for Astartes.

"On worlds long forsaken by the Imperium, the slaves of the Dark Gods of Chaos reign and at the Reach’s heart, unsuspected at the Crusade’s outset, they have created a blasphemous domain ruled over by Daemon Princes and Chaos Lords, where the quixotic laws of the warp rather than those of fragile reality now hold sway." - DW, pg 322.

They aren't just any fortress worlds. They're daemon fortress worlds. How nice.

that and the Imperium has been stalled just short of them, rather then besieging them directly.

Ok, I'd like to read the source material now. Is DW actually short for Deathwing? As in an RPG book called Deathwing? Or what is the full title of the source?

DW in this case is the Deathwatch RPG rulebook, which was released at Gencon and to your FLGS hopefully sometime in the next month.

BaronIveagh wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:Except you're thinking of a "Fortress World manned by Chaos Marines" as being similar to say, Cadia.

It won't be. It'll be a planet that has some key strongpoints that will allow a small force to hold off a numerically superior one with minimal casualties. Cracking that kind of nut would be a cakewalk for Astartes.

"On worlds long forsaken by the Imperium, the slaves of the Dark Gods of Chaos reign and at the Reach’s heart, unsuspected at the Crusade’s outset, they have created a blasphemous domain ruled over by Daemon Princes and Chaos Lords, where the quixotic laws of the warp rather than those of fragile reality now hold sway." - DW, pg 322.

They aren't just any fortress worlds. They're daemon fortress worlds. How nice.

that and the Imperium has been stalled just short of them, rather then besieging them directly.

Aaaaaaaand?

The Cadians and Dark Angels both mount small incursions to clear out Daemon Fortress Worlds within the Warp every few decades--as training exercises.

The place being "a Daemon Fortress World" actually makes it a bit easier, to be honest. Mass exorcism the place from orbit, the real big advantage the defenders had(Daemonic reinforcements that can strike anywhere at anytime on the planet's surface) is nullified and you're left facing an understaffed series of forts manned by(for all intents and purposes) common thugs and cultists who've been shanghaied into becoming Chaos Marines.

Thanks baron. Is Deathwatch a separate RPG from Dark Heresy or an expansion? I've not played DH, so this may be a silly question. But for a book that's supposed to be an RPG, you'd think they'd pay close attention to detail, like the number of troops in a crusade.

Deathwatch is, effectively, "Dark Heresy for Marines". It's the same system, but not quite an expansion.

Kanluwen wrote:

BaronIveagh wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:Except you're thinking of a "Fortress World manned by Chaos Marines" as being similar to say, Cadia.

It won't be. It'll be a planet that has some key strongpoints that will allow a small force to hold off a numerically superior one with minimal casualties. Cracking that kind of nut would be a cakewalk for Astartes.

"On worlds long forsaken by the Imperium, the slaves of the Dark Gods of Chaos reign and at the Reach’s heart, unsuspected at the Crusade’s outset, they have created a blasphemous domain ruled over by Daemon Princes and Chaos Lords, where the quixotic laws of the warp rather than those of fragile reality now hold sway." - DW, pg 322.

They aren't just any fortress worlds. They're daemon fortress worlds. How nice.

that and the Imperium has been stalled just short of them, rather then besieging them directly.

Aaaaaaaand?

The Cadians and Dark Angels both mount small incursions to clear out Daemon Fortress Worlds within the Warp every few decades--as training exercises.

The place being "a Daemon Fortress World" actually makes it a bit easier, to be honest. Mass exorcism the place from orbit, the real big advantage the defenders had(Daemonic reinforcements that can strike anywhere at anytime on the planet's surface) is nullified and you're left facing an understaffed series of forts manned by(for all intents and purposes) common thugs and cultists who've been shanghaied into becoming Chaos Marines.

Before I ask where you got this information that Cadians were traveling into the Eye of Terror to raid daemon fortress worlds as a training operation (considering the rather rough reception that Space Marines get upon leaving daemon worlds) I have to ask, if a mass excorcism form orbit worked, why would Grey Knights ever land? And, I might be vague on this, but my understanding of exorcism in 40k was that it was a very time consuming process just to remove one daemon from one person.

If it's a Daemon world...the whole world is, in effect, a Daemonic entity and an entryway for the Daemonic infestation. Think of it like welding a door shut to prevent an invasion, rather than just trying to hold it shut by yourself.

A planet infested with Daemons is a different matter entirely, because each individual Daemon has to be dealt with individually.

Um.. Kanluwen, a daemon world is any planet that exists half in and half out of the warp. It's usually not a single entity, but rather a world where the barrier between the warp and reality has broken down.

"A daemon world is a planet twisted and corrupted by the power of Chaos and the warp from being trapped in a prolonged warp rift. Entwining the impossibilities of the warp and the reality of the physical realm, Daemon World's are not bound by the laws of physics, but by the whim of daemonic rulers and the emotions of mortals." - C: CD (pg 18)

There's actually various kinds of Daemon worlds. It's very rare, but there have been some(one's mentioned in the Ork Codex and Planetstrike also) wherein the planet is one gigantic entity.

Consider that these are in a warp rift, I'll figure them for the former rather then the latter.

Kanluwen wrote:There's actually various kinds of Daemon worlds. It's very rare, but there have been some(one's mentioned in the Ork Codex and Planetstrike also) wherein the planet is one gigantic entity.

There was also a referance in the Grey Knight series - Alaric and friends end up on an ex-AdMech planet that has reappeared, and is semi-sentient. As in: Elements of the terrain fight against them, and the planet itself is aware of them, but it's still just a planet. A ball of rock. It's just a planet with conciousness.

BaronIveagh wrote:Consider that these are in a warp rift, I'll figure them for the former rather then the latter.

What does the planet being in a rift have to do with what Kanluwen said? I fail to see how that prevents either or.

metallifan wrote:

What does the planet being in a rift have to do with what Kanluwen said? I fail to see how that prevents either or.

Since we have more examples of the former then the latter, it would be likely that these would probably be the more common type.

BaronIveagh wrote:

metallifan wrote:

What does the planet being in a rift have to do with what Kanluwen said? I fail to see how that prevents either or.

Since we have more examples of the former then the latter, it would be likely that these would probably be the more common type.

No. Stop beating around the bush and attempting to avoid answering my question. You said:

BaronIveagh wrote:Consider that these are in a warp rift, I'll figure them for the former rather then the latter.

Which is a pretty poor basis for refuting the possibility of a daemon world actually being a daemon/being posessed. I'd like to know just how you figure being in a warp rift would prevent a daemon world from being a daemon. Unless, as is the case, it wouldn't.

Kanluwen wrote:

Fiend wrote:I love the Emperor's finest as much as the next guy, but I wouldn't call that a cakewalk. Not if manned by traitor Astartes.

I think the Astartes presence is large, but not out of hand. It seems reasonable for a large crusade, especially with the number of chapters contributing. The numbers do seem rather large when comparing to the Guard presence though...

Astartes are trash in static, defensive position fights. That's why, even on defense, most of the Loyalist Astartes tend towards "Let the Guard bear the brunt of it, then we drop pod a force down to shore up weakspots" as strategies.

I'd have to disagree there, there are several chapters/legions that are dedicated to that sort of fight. The Iron Warriors' fortress worlds, for example, are pretty much one giant network of strongpoints, trenches, artillery positions and other assorted nastiness. Granted, they have several tens of millions of conscripted/enslaved soldiers working for them on each planet, but the point still stands. No cakewalk for Astartes, regardless of their alignment.

metallifan wrote:
Which is a pretty poor basis for refuting the possibility of a daemon world actually being a daemon/being posessed. I'd like to know just how you figure being in a warp rift would prevent a daemon world from being a daemon. Unless, as is the case, it wouldn't.

Because they're on the edges of the rift according to the map. Using the story from Planetkill as a reference, a demons world in that vein would be dead from insufficient warp energy to sustain it. Assuming I'm thinking of the right Grey Knights novel, the one in it got around this issue by merging with a nano-swarm.