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It makes complete sense that of course they won't tell you when a new product is coming out. They need to sell the old stock. If you knew a new better SM was coming out compared to a crappy beakie, would you still spend 90 bucks on a battle force full of ugly marines, or would you wait 6 months and get nice new sexy models? It makes complete sense. People who don't think it does are just dumb and clearly don't understand how the normal person works.

A savvy company will let stock dwindle well in advance if they know they're going to phase something out, you don't keep producing things that you're not going to seel at the end of 3 months......GW does this already. Besides, they aren't stupid; they're not going to just release a whole new model line all at once (and it is the models that make them money, not the codex or rulesbooks) they know their production schedule they just don't want to tell anyone for whatever reason. Personally, I think it's a fail on their marketing department's part and apparently so does every major company in the world.

Geez, it's like you people think that there's no planning involved to marketing and production. Besides, there's always going to be some overhead, look at all the Battle for Skull Pass boxsets still out there. It may take a while but they will sell because they have models that aren't in the new set. People aren't going to stop buying models because something a little different is coming. Car manufacturers have huge car shows where they show next year's models without worrying that people will just sit at home and wait for the next model to come out.

Why would you buy the new leman russ if you already have 2 of the old sculpts and like them? Why would you dump your entire Dark Eldar army that you spent years collecting and painting if you hear about a new release? You won't. It's economically unsound and not many people have that kind of money just sitting around. Check e-bay, bloodcrushers are still selling for the same price even when the new plastics are available.

Mewiththeface wrote:It makes complete sense that of course they won't tell you when a new product is coming out.

if i can pay 50 bucks for a squad of old grey knights or 80 bucks for new ones, there's no way i'm spending 80 just because something is new and fancy.

it makes total sense for them to say 'we're coming out with a new GK codex in jan' because people will buy up all the available models in anticipation of the prices going up on the new ones as they lay the groundwork for their new army, and they'll also buy the new stuff because it's shiny and will probably include new IC and such.

the argument that old stuff won't sell doesn't hold water to me because there's a large market of people who like OOP models, and there's also a large group of people who hate giving GW 1200% markup on models that cost 5 bucks to produce, and the first thing I do in any LGS is look for the blisters with the red stickers on them.

Sure, I might buy a new box set of something if I plan to paint it to GD standard, and GK termies are a perfect example of such a project. But why bother when I can barter for them or buy used at a fraction of the cost?

Also, the 'apples and oranges' comparison to GW and Blizz doesn't hold water either because any first year marketing student can tell you the principles of selling a product are the same regardless of the industry. blizzard simply has a better business model.

They won't tell you the prices 6 months in advance. There is the problem. If they did, then that would make sense, but they don't because they also want to the sell the new product. It makes perfect sense for a business. If you don't like it, deal, that's how it works. Profit. Besides, you don't 'need' to find out what the new stuff is anyways, its just your curiosity. Don't get me wrong either, I would love to see the new models early in advance but I know it isn't gonna happen so I'll just live between rumors.

agnosto wrote:
Geez, it's like you people think that there's no planning involved to marketing and production. Besides, there's always going to be some overhead, look at all the Battle for Skull Pass boxsets still out there. It may take a while but they will sell because they have models that aren't in the new set. People aren't going to stop buying models because something a little different is coming. Car manufacturers have huge car shows where they show next year's models without worrying that people will just sit at home and wait for the next model to come out.

People need cars to get around in most major population centers and their outlying suburban areas. Your car example is asinine.

What's even more asinine is a company that sells "toy soldiers" treating information concerning future releases like it's "vital security intelligence".

GW allowing info concerning upcoming releases would not adversely affect sales of their products by any real margin.

The info release would create a demographic of people who "simply have to have the new toy/toys".

Those who prefer the soon to be OOP minis would buy those up,for the most part no real loss there.

In fact the only drawback I could honestly see would be GWs inability to unload minis they plan to nerf in the upcoming release.

FITZZ wrote: What's even more asinine is a company that sells "toy soldiers" treating information concerning future releases like it's "vital security intelligence".

It's treated like "vital financial intelligence."

Which, when you own a business, is pretty important.

Which affects their bottom line, now doesn't it?

I said it earlier:
It costs them far, far more to recall stock and recycle the plastic from the sprues(which degrades the plastic, also) than it does to just keep their mouths shut and let people buy old stock, just to release new stuff later.

Again,my point was that financial loss would be minimal in theory.

previewing upcoming releases would only increase desire to purchase in those who are interested in the products to begin with,and in all likelihood draw others to the product.

While at the same time those who have a preference for certain minis which will be "upgraded",will purchase the old stock,while still planning purchase from the upcoming release.

As I said,the only real drawback I can see would be an inability to offload minis which would be discontinued/rendered useless.

And that is a huge drawback, considering it costs far far more to recycle those old models, costs them storage space for the "old" stock that doesn't get sold off, requires them to still keep the stock information for it, etc etc.

Also, I'm going to let you in on something:

People really don't "prefer" the old stock when they know something's going to be upgraded. It's very rarely that you'll see somebody hunting for older stuff, unless they've already invested into a large amount of those older models, the models themselves are available for cheaper, or there's a thematic reason for it.

Also taking into account the fact that the "upgrades" tend to be not just repackages/different poses of the current line-up, but entirely new sculpts, boxes with options that weren't available, etc etc--people will go for the new stock over the old, if given warning.

I'm not saying it's the 'right' business practice, nor that it's even a good one. Just saying that I can completely understand why they do what they do.

Mewiththeface wrote:They won't tell you the prices 6 months in advance. There is the problem. If they did, then that would make sense, but they don't because they also want to the sell the new product. It makes perfect sense for a business. If you don't like it, deal, that's how it works. Profit.

Except there's plenty of successful businesses (doing better than GW fyi) that do the exact opposite of this, so how does it make perfect sense for a business? I'm not trying to single you out, but I literally read this in every other post like it's the financial golden rule and made of pure win and genius. Its not. If it works for GW good for them, but plenty of miniature companies are doing just fine without keeping their customers guessing about whats coming out.

None of those miniature companies are as widespread as GW.

It's also worth noting that there's only one company that has actually gotten enough success to have people making knock-off upgrade kits for their stuff(which hey, isn't that what Games Workshop wants to do through a rather expensive operation of theirs called Forge World?).

Funnily enough, the "6 month window" started up, however, after they finished doing the first line of stuff for New Line Cinema and the Lord of the Rings movie line--because of the fact that they'd get their asses sued off if anything leaked that would spoil the movies.

It seems that GW are currently satisfying their shareholding investors.

To do this they must currently be fulfilling their own business objectives.

If these objectives do not currently include advertising new products, giving pre release info, dropping hints etc then ,subjectively, GW is not losing anything in terms of its future business.

It 'may' gain or it 'may' loose business by altering its model to be dependant on a pre release strategy of advertising and announcements.

I'm not too bothered about not knowing what new minis are coming, half the excitement is the surprise. If we knew about the next years minis, we'd all probably be writing in a discussion about "why don't they tell us two years in advance". T

The one thing that they could do is confirm which armies are coming in the year, instead of all the persistent rumors of GK, DE etc etc etc which just get really annoying, especially idiots who write entire threads about new army rumours that are all BS. Someone above had a good point when the said this would help clear out old stuff as people would start buying things earlier for the new 's armies. Anyone can have a good guess what would be released as new, especially if the core models are metal with GW trend towards plastics.

Games Day as mentioned above used to be really good for checking out some new stuff and WIP, particularly the sculpts (last time i was there was 2003 UK), but having heard from friends who went last year it just wasn't the same and you couldn't tell what was old stuff that the never released (DE Haemonculi is one example) and what was new!

They won't say...they never say...

They used to say. They used to occasionally feature greens or 3-ups or mention what so and sos next project would be. Now White Dwarf is only advertising the latest release and it's left to people to leak photos onto the internet.

The real indignation now comes from the fact that GW don't want to help or show respect to their customer. GW are long past this now. They are solely interested in pushing the current line and not informing anyone of future releases because it would supposedly dent profits. Some companies value customer relations because it fosters customer loyalty for the future. GW don't value long term customers and their loyalty, only noobs with money to part with.

Kanluwen wrote:As for the Razorbacks...go and take a look at Privateer Press. You pay $35ish for a half unit of infantry, and then are paying $10 for each of the unit attachments.

Which is about the same as GW, really. You buy half a unit of metal models for $41.25, and then are paying $13.50 for the special weapons. Heck, GW charges $35ish for a box of 5 plastic marines with fiddly bits. So, can we stop with the LOLPPIZMOAREXPENZIEV, because it reeks of Did Not Do The Research.

Laughing Man wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:As for the Razorbacks...go and take a look at Privateer Press. You pay $35ish for a half unit of infantry, and then are paying $10 for each of the unit attachments.

Which is about the same as GW, really. You buy half a unit of metal models for $41.25, and then are paying $13.50 for the special weapons. Heck, GW charges $35ish for a box of 5 plastic marines with fiddly bits. So, can we stop with the LOLPPIZMOAREXPENZIEV, because it reeks of Did Not Do The Research.

Difference is with that $35 Space Marine box you'll have some of those "fiddly bits" leftover.

You don't with PP.

Do your own research sometime.

Ah yes, a few useless pieces of plastic to go with... wait. I have to buy another box of marines to do anything with those. For another $35. This is a price saver how, precisely?

Regardless of their prices on plastic, when you compare metal to metal (or plastic to plastic, really), their prices are roughly the same, with Privateer's coming out slightly cheaper.

For comparison's sake:

Privateer Plastic Warjack: $34.99
GW Plastic Dreadnought: $44.50.

Privateer Metal Warjack (Castigator): $34.99
GW Metal Chaos Dreadnought: $57.75

Privateer Metal Unit (6 Cleansers): $32.99
GW Metal Sisters of Battle (6): $34.50

Privateer Plastic Unit (6 Bastions): $44.99
GW Plastic Terminators (5): $50

How many of you believe Private Press / Warmachine's expensive price tags are directly related to the "standard" set by GW raise your hand.

I love watching GW fan boys protecting GW's pricing by bringing up Warmachine. How old has GW been around , and how long has PP been around?

Kanluwen wrote:
People need cars to get around in most major population centers and their outlying suburban areas. Your car example is asinine.

Please save the vitriole, I'm trying to have an adult conversation here not a middle school name calling competition.

Actually, it is a relevant comparison if you take it from the standpoint of marketing, which was my point; thus my many instances where I used the word....marketing. A preview of an upcoming product does not drive consumers away, if anything it attracts more. This is a fact of the human condition; if you ask a person if something new piques their curiosity, they'll say yes. Thus all the marketing language that uses "New and Improved". In all fairness, GW does this but on a much shorter timeline (I believe a month or two at most); there's a reason why updated armies do so well and it's not only codex creep. My opinion is that they could be capitalizing on this more by offering sem-obscure glimpses well in advance. There's another thread on this board from Legoburner who has been receiving hints from the company that makes DoWII about an upcoming game; nobody knew what was happening at first but people were absolutely rabid to know what it was all about. It was later revealed to be an expansion to DoWII but I hope you can see my point about offering nibbles and reaping rewards. Most miniature companies show greens of their products long before they're available.

I'm not suggesting that GW offer detailed reports of what their plans are, I'm simply stating my opinion that they could reap greater rewards with hints and partial photos. People have said in similar threads that something like this could make White Dwarf relevant again.

On a smaller scale but in the same market are companies like Mantic and Wargames Foundry (to name two that I am aware of). I know that these are small companies; however, they both have a growing fanbase of disaffected GW customers. I'm not going to compare quality because I'm simply not a good judge, as one lil plastic army man looks much the same to me. Both companies preview their work in advance and even offer their models for pre-order and sale when they are still in the greens....and both companies are showing a marked increase in sales (if the fact that they are having trouble keeping up with demand is any indication). Time will tell but anyone that tells you that competition is not good for the consumer is a fool.

At the end of the day, we all have our opinions. If you, or anyone else, doesn't agree with mine, that's fine; I promise I won't cry.

LunaHound wrote:How many of you believe Private Press / Warmachine's expensive price tags are directly related to the "standard" set by GW raise your hand.

I love watching GW fan boys protecting GW's pricing by bringing up Warmachine. How old has GW been around , and how long has PP been around?

And by that logic, shouldn't Privateer, being the "alternative to GW" be swimming in money?

Oh, you mean they're not? Huh. Funny. Because with all the whining that goes on about how overpriced GW is...you'd think the "cheaper alternative" is bringing in money hand over fist.

And Agnosto, apologies. It was a bit harsh. Cars though are kind of a different story. People are going to have cars, except in some very rare circumstances, and you can trade in/sell cars to get money off depending on the dealership.

DOWII: Retribution is another different story though. There's only two things it really could have been: A) an expansion to DOWII(which it was) or B) A teaser for Space Marine.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also, in regards to quality...
Mantic, while being a cheaper alternative for Warhammer Fantasy...you get what you pay for. They're not bad, but they're not fantastic either.

Kanluwen wrote:

LunaHound wrote:How many of you believe Private Press / Warmachine's expensive price tags are directly related to the "standard" set by GW raise your hand.

I love watching GW fan boys protecting GW's pricing by bringing up Warmachine. How old has GW been around , and how long has PP been around?

And by that logic, shouldn't Privateer, being the "alternative to GW" be swimming in money?

You think thats how it works? i suppose been naive can be cute... I also believe we were both told to not talk to each other , so lets obey that ne?

Kanluwen wrote:

LunaHound wrote:How many of you believe Private Press / Warmachine's expensive price tags are directly related to the "standard" set by GW raise your hand.

I love watching GW fan boys protecting GW's pricing by bringing up Warmachine. How old has GW been around , and how long has PP been around?

And by that logic, shouldn't Privateer, being the "alternative to GW" be swimming in money?

Oh, you mean they're not? Huh. Funny. Because with all the whining that goes on about how overpriced GW is...you'd think the "cheaper alternative" is bringing in money hand over fist.

The reason people keep buying GW over PP is because people love the game and models they put out despite their ludicrous price raises. They have whats called a fanbase. They just happen to spit in that fanbase's face every chance they get while hiding behind a veil of "We can do no wrong because we're GW."

Laughing Man wrote:Ah yes, a few useless pieces of plastic to go with... wait. I have to buy another box of marines to do anything with those. For another $35.

No. For another $37.25 for 10. It is dishonest to pretend that the Tactical Squad box doesn't exist so that you can compare the Privateer box of 6 line troops to the GW box of 5 command troops.

LunaHound wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:

LunaHound wrote:How many of you believe Private Press / Warmachine's expensive price tags are directly related to the "standard" set by GW raise your hand.

I love watching GW fan boys protecting GW's pricing by bringing up Warmachine. How old has GW been around , and how long has PP been around?

And by that logic, shouldn't Privateer, being the "alternative to GW" be swimming in money?

You think that's how it works? I suppose being naive can be cute...

I suppose passive-aggressive attacks are adorable then.

That's exactly how it works, darling. If even a quarter of the people who continually claim they "quit" GW games to play Privateer Press/Rackham/Whatever--then why aren't these companies doing better than they are?

And by that logic, shouldn't Privateer, being the "alternative to GW" be swimming in money?

Oh, you mean they're not? Huh. Funny. Because with all the whining that goes on about how overpriced GW is...you'd think the "cheaper alternative" is bringing in money hand over fist.

So... your logic is that Privateer isn't actually cheaper because everyone buys from Games Workshop? Because that's possibly the most slowed thing I've ever heard.

As for Privateer's financials, they're not a publicly traded company so they don't make their profits public, but considering that they have three successful miniatures lines, an upcoming video game, and a movie deal, one would assume they're not precisely on the road to the poorhouse.

Kanluwen wrote:Cars though are kind of a different story. People are going to have cars, except in some very rare circumstances, and you can trade in/sell cars to get money off depending on the dealership.

DOWII: Retribution is another different story though. There's only two things it really could have been: A) an expansion to DOWII(which it was) or B) A teaser for Space Marine.

Also, in regards to quality...
Mantic, while being a cheaper alternative for Warhammer Fantasy...you get what you pay for. They're not bad, but they're not fantastic either.

Not for me, I've got to have my little pieces of plastic crack.....and you can resell them. If I cared to sell it, I could make a ton off of my chaos dwarf army that's sitting on the shelf. I saw a smaller army go for $500 on ebay and I probably on have about $100 in it (1995 prices).

As for quality. Meh. When we're talking fantasy, I have to field so many models that I really don't need every dwarf in a squad of longbeards to look like a champion. Also, you'll probably notice how similar they are to GW when GW was an upcoming company in the 80's and 90's. Like I said, time will tell but so far they've been getting better sculpts out there with each new release. I really like the new beserker (trollslayer) champ. There's room in the marketplace for competition and it can only help us, as players and consumers, and it won't kill GW (I'm not one of those people that's going to say, "They're going to be out of business, mark my words...bwahahahaha".


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Chill out people.... oh well, this threads gonna be closed soon...

Kanluwen wrote:

LunaHound wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:

LunaHound wrote:How many of you believe Private Press / Warmachine's expensive price tags are directly related to the "standard" set by GW raise your hand.

I love watching GW fan boys protecting GW's pricing by bringing up Warmachine. How old has GW been around , and how long has PP been around?

And by that logic, shouldn't Privateer, being the "alternative to GW" be swimming in money?

You think that's how it works? I suppose being naive can be cute...

I suppose passive-aggressive attacks are adorable then.

That's exactly how it works, darling. If even a quarter of the people who continually claim they "quit" GW games to play Privateer Press/Rackham/Whatever--then why aren't these companies doing better than they are?

Passive aggressive? I can never understand how that works ( when its comming from you especially ) . Are we talking about a lion trying to swallow a porcupine just minding its own buisness and then cries to the court when the doctor have to yank the quills out of the lions throat for pain and suffering?


GW is successful also because they have a stable foot hold in the golden age of wargame industry for ages. Their player base is vass IF ONLY FOR THIS ALONE.
Which im not saying GW dont have its own charm and qualities , but surely you cant dismiss this. But dont try to give GW so much credit that "ALL GW fans are made of players that love warhammer for its perfection in game design / model design"

I can garuntee you , lots of current warhammer players ended up choosing warhammer only because:
a) Its reliable game that should stick around for awhile aka safe to invest in
b) It has large player base that can find games in easier.

TL;DR , PP not been as rich or popular compared to GW has nothing to do with its quality or price.

Laughing Man wrote:

And by that logic, shouldn't Privateer, being the "alternative to GW" be swimming in money?

Oh, you mean they're not? Huh. Funny. Because with all the whining that goes on about how overpriced GW is...you'd think the "cheaper alternative" is bringing in money hand over fist.

So... your logic is that Privateer isn't actually cheaper because everyone buys from Games Workshop? Because that's possibly the most slowed thing I've ever heard.

As for Privateer's financials, they're not a publicly traded company so they don't make their profits public, but considering that they have three successful miniatures lines, an upcoming video game, and a movie deal, one would assume they're not precisely on the road to the poorhouse.

Except, again, Privateer isn't actually cheaper. It gives you the illusion of being cheaper due to the number of models fielded at one time--but you do need to factor in that you'll also need a fairly extensive line-up of models to really "keep up" with the adapting tournament scene.

Kanluwen wrote:Except, again, Privateer isn't actually cheaper. It gives you the illusion of being cheaper due to the number of models fielded at one time

Well yeah, GW axed all their smaller skirmish games that required lower investment and now only have big games. Also GW have changed the nature of the relative power and points values of figures in their games so that you need ever more figures to play a 2000 point game.