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*cough*

Privateer Plastic Warjack: $34.99
GW Plastic Dreadnought: $44.50.

Privateer Metal Warjack (Castigator): $34.99
GW Metal Chaos Dreadnought: $57.75

Privateer Metal Unit (6 Cleansers): $32.99
GW Metal Sisters of Battle (6): $34.50

Privateer Plastic Unit (6 Bastions): $44.99
GW Plastic Terminators (5): $50

So yeah, they're cheaper and have less models fielded.

I can pull random price comparisons out of my ass too.

Considering the "plastic warjacks" are about the size of a Sentinel...they're $10 more than GW's.

The "Castigator" is a character piece, and well...I've got no real good comparison, seeing as the metal Chaos Dreadnought you're using as one is older than sin and isn't really purchased anymore due to the ease of obtaining the Forge World Chaos Dreads or converting the standard SM ones.

Come to think of it, you use two examples of "older" sets and cherrypick for whichever is more expensive than GW's.

Bastions also bring up, in this case, another good example of Privateer Press' method of "cheap". You get the bare minimum for a unit, no bits leftover.

Nope.

A METAL Cygnar Ironclad Warjack is $27.99 retail. A PLASTIC Games-Workshop Dreadnought is $44.50.

Here is a size comparison.

http://i185.photobucket.com/albums/x295/Cygnwulf/1.jpg (Thanks to Cygnwulf)

The warjack is a bit smaller, but completely metal. I don't even play Warmachine/Hordes and know that it is many times cheaper.

As for the release schedule, I predict it will look like this:

March/April: Grey Knights (pretty much confirmed)
Summer: Necrons (makes sense since they are releasing a new Forge World Necron soon)
November: Witchhunters (FW would not release a new Inquisition IA so far from GK without a main GW release to coincide with)

Considering the "plastic warjacks" are about the size of a Sentinel...they're $10 more than GW's.

Eh? For comparison's sake, an old 'Clad standing next to a Dread. The new plastics are all about half an inch or so taller than their metal counterparts, and a decent amount wider. Dreadnought to plastic jack is a perfectly valid comparison.

The "Castigator" is a character piece, and well...I've got no real good comparison, seeing as the metal Chaos Dreadnought you're using as one is older than sin and isn't really purchased anymore due to the ease of obtaining the Forge World Chaos Dreads or converting the standard SM ones.

Que? The Castigator isn't a character, it's FA: U. Of course, if that's your problem, I could throw up the original Crusader, at If you prefer, we could use another of GW's metal dreadnought-esque pieces, like Inquisitor Karamasov, at $50,

If you don't like the fact that I'm using the Sisters for comparison, I could throw out the more expensive Vanguard Veterans, at $41.25 for 5 models.

Bastions also bring up, in this case, another good example of Privateer Press' method of "cheap". You get the bare minimum for a unit, no bits leftover.

Given that you can't build more than 5 terminators out of a box barring sculpting your own torsos and legs, I think it's a perfectly valid comparison, especially as the Privateer box has a full sixth model.

Kanluwen wrote:Difference is with that $35 Space Marine box you'll have some of those "fiddly bits" leftover.

.....

Bastions also bring up, in this case, another good example of Privateer Press' method of "cheap". You get the bare minimum for a unit, no bits leftover.

Seeing as you've chosen to bring this up a couple of times I'll bite. A few left over bits is not a real justification for a higher price from GW however small, and is not the basis for something else being described as "cheap". Besides, for all these 'extra bits' leftover if you want to talk 'cheap' then lets look at the number of GW kits that don't include all the parts to meet the options in the codex, I'd rather have things like the deathroller in the battlewagon kit, and the dozerblade in the rhino, or the hive city in the Planetary Empires box, than any number of small leftovers for instance.

How about this for a thought. Ork loota burna box.
While a GW apologist sees this as god sent OMG extra bits ,
normal people sees it as attempt to have ork players buy another box to complete the minis.

is PP ever gonna make sprues? I dont see too much of a point of their plastic except the fact that they're either sort of modular (unless its the battlesets in which it costs the same for the same) or easier to put together

I suppose its both ideas. really wish I could have some possable flame guard

kenshin620 wrote:is PP ever gonna make sprues? I dont see too much of a point of their plastic except the fact that they're either sort of modular (unless its the battlesets in which it costs the same for the same) or easier to put together

I suppose its both ideas. really wish I could have some possable flame guard

The Privateer models do technically have sprues. It's just that the models have been trimmed off them before being boxed. The main reason for plastic in Privateer's eyes is to get away from the rather volatile pewter market, rather than extra bits that are absolutely useless in their game system.

So, if people like Privateer stuff and are adamant that that is best; what the crud are you doing moaning on here? Oh, Yes, I forgot, you're not happy unless you're unhappy. It is unfair to do comparisons because of the global company and networks and codexes etc already in place but there will always be one system of t'other to choose from and compare.

The original post was about why do GW never say what they are working on? They do tel you what they are working on when they are ready. And only then. It is a business after all and unless you understand the nature of the business you're not going to see why.

Some have argued that it cannot cause too much if any effect, you are wrong. If they tell you in a leak that they have a new model or new range on the way a few things happen. The current model is worth a lot less than before; people won't buy new ones and the current one's end up on eBay. The stock on the shelves don't sell so then there is a surplus of existing stock.
So, basically, they have just undervalued a complete army range just by telling you that an army might be coming soon. Not good for a company is it? And don't forget this is a global company so this would be a global downturn in profits on one range.

Then there is the expenditure incurred by releasing the new army. Research, modelling, marketing, getting the new rules playtested contantly to look for exploits, models to paint, odels to convert, photography, artworks, printing new rules, translation services, codexes, staff training, then there's fixing release dates so that the stuff can be made, boxed, distributed and sent out. This is all at GW expense!

So they undervalue their current stock then have to spend a lot of money in getting the new stuff on the shelves in the hope that you'l buy it! In a business that only works on pre-tax profit of £7.5m which is incredibly por for a lobal company, (2008 was only £1.8m) do you really think they will tell you stuff unless they're ready? here

They do tell you when things are coming, in a planned set of release parameters, examples are island of Blood for Warhammer which you can pre-order and has been advertised and playtested and reported upon for months, and then there's 40K Assault on Black Reach, also playtested, pre-orders taken, articles written before it was released.

I think that you're being unfair just because they don't give you something that you is interested in, all of a sudden it's whinge time.

It is this simple; When they have news to tell you they will tell you.

LunaHound wrote:How about this for a thought. Ork loota burna box.
While a GW apologist sees this as god sent OMG extra bits ,
normal people sees it as attempt to have ork players buy another box to complete the minis.

Yeah, apparently GW is really good at giving extra bits...but really bad at giving you bits for all the options. Extras are always nice, but it always pisses me off when they have useless crap taking up all the space instead of using that space to give you something actually useful.

Yeah, wonder how well E3 would do if the gaming companies had nothing to show for the next year.

Oh, interesting that you mention that...THQ was "showing off" Dark Millenium at E3 this year. I put it in quotes because, besides the trailer everyone already saw, they had nothing to say. I watched a guy try to interview one of the THQ guys and all he said was "I can't say. I can't say. I can't say." He could barely get the guy to admit that Space Marines and Orks would be playable, and I bet you anything he wouldn't have said that much if they weren't clearly in the trailer playing behind him...

All they had was a guy in a Marine costume.

So, if people like Privateer stuff and are adamant that that is best; what the crud are you doing moaning on here?

Wha? When did I say that? I play WM, sure, but I certainly don't dislike GW's games (well, the 40k ruleset leaks like a sieve and could use a bunch of work, but Fantasy is wonderful). I have a fair sized Blood Angels army, a load of Alpha Legion, and a decent WoC army as well. The whole "Privateer is more expensive" fallacy is just a pet peeve of mine is all.

Kanluwen wrote:Also, in regards to quality...
Mantic, while being a cheaper alternative for Warhammer Fantasy...you get what you pay for. They're not bad, but they're not fantastic either.

Every time I see that model it fills me with RAGE!

Sidstyler wrote:Every time I see that model it fills me with RAGE!

Hey man, no need for negative vibes - Hakuna Matata!

Kanluwen wrote:
Except, again, Privateer isn't actually cheaper. It gives you the illusion of being cheaper due to the number of models fielded at one time--but you do need to factor in that you'll also need a fairly extensive line-up of models to really "keep up" with the adapting tournament scene.

Now you are grasping at straws. Tournament players will always be the minority either in Warmachine or 40k, we even had GW saying this in the open sometime ago.

So if most players only play in "friendly" games I fail to see how a game that requires 10-20 figures (just making up the number as I don´t play WM) is only illusionarily cheaper than one that needs 40-50 plus vehicles even if I were to concede the point that miniature prices are almost the same.

M.

Sidstyler wrote:Every time I see that model it fills me with RAGE!

Quick! Apply the MST3K Mantra!

Miguelsan wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:
Except, again, Privateer isn't actually cheaper. It gives you the illusion of being cheaper due to the number of models fielded at one time--but you do need to factor in that you'll also need a fairly extensive line-up of models to really "keep up" with the adapting tournament scene.

Now you are grasping at straws. Tournament players will always be the minority either in Warmachine or 40k, we even had GW saying this in the open sometime ago.

So if most players only play in "friendly" games I fail to see how a game that requires 10-20 figures (just making up the number as I don´t play WM) is only illusory cheaper than one that needs 40-50 plus vehicles even if I were to concede the point that miniature prices are almost the same.

M.

Trends change more often in WM gaming than Warhammer/40k. At least that's the impression I'm continually given from watching games/players' purchases. Even if they're not tournament players, they still end up with a rather large collection and continually rotate models based on trends cropping up in the armies they're facing. Kind of like a large amount of 40k/Fantasy players have a large collection that they can pull units from as needed.

Trends change more often in WM gaming than Warhammer/40k. At least that's the impression I'm continually given from watching games/players' purchases. Even if they're not tournament players, they still end up with a rather large collection and continually rotate models based on trends cropping up in the armies they're facing. Kind of like a large amount of 40k/Fantasy players have a large collection that they can pull units from as needed.

Then how precisely is it different from the large amount of 40k/Fantasy players who have a large collection that they can pull units from as needed?

I know a few people who only have a single small army, who rarely buy new releases. A minority, certainly, but you can do it and still be competitive (see Kaya's Warpwolf Yo-Yo). It's just more interesting to be able to change up your list every once in a while.

To be honest, most of the trends in WM tend to vary less with new releases and more with flavor-of-the-month builds, like Vlad's Reaver Limo or the Karchev Shotput, that are continually recycled and repopularized on the Big Boards. Often times it's catalyzed by a new release, but most changes tend more towards repopularizing an old build that fell out of favor rather than having a crapton of new models. Since the varying builds operate in wildly different manners, it can take a lot of models to switch up your game, even within a single faction. There's not really a good GW in the current edition, but I'd compare it to playing Emperor's Children vs. Word Bearers Daemon Bomb.

EDIT: That was much more rambling than I'd like, but I'm currently running on three hours of sleep, a mocha, and three hours of morning classes. Kill me now?

Kanluwen wrote:Except, again, Privateer isn't actually cheaper. It gives you the illusion of being cheaper due to the number of models fielded at one time--but you do need to factor in that you'll also need a fairly extensive line-up of models to really "keep up" with the adapting tournament scene.

@Kanluwen: I can't get past the feeling that you're being deliberately obtuse when it comes to PP. It is well documented that metal models from PP and GW are generally sold at comparable prices. In this case, I agree with you completely, as disputing this is idiotic...

To your first point: Yes, there are fewer models - this too is well documented. Typical Warmahordes armies are 1/3 to a 1/4 of the model count of your typical 1850 40k army.
To your second point: Yes, most players using the PP system will have more models. You say that as if players using the GW system stop at 1850!
-edit- On a side note: Inclusion of extra bits in PP's system is pointless, as the system doesn't alow players to customize their units - as such, discussion of bits seems kind of senseless.

Assuming that the 40k army is made entirely of plastic, and assuming that you get twice as much plastic over metal - the Warmahordes player will have 2x their tournament army in hot-swappable models (including playstyle changing caster swaps) giving them the option of many viable tournament armies (or one huge one) while your 40k player is stuck with their one list. In terms of gameplay options for money spent, PP generates the better value. However, supporters of both systems don't play the games based on gameplay value - they play the games because they like them. I think that you are doing yourself a disservice by continuing to blindly heap scorn onto PP. A lot of things that PP is doing now is what GW used to do (and do well!) in the past. Their early release of rules and previewing new models in No Quarter is exactly what GW used to do with White Dwarf. The annual league battle tours are in the vein of Armageddon and Eye of Terror - except much more frequent! In my personal experience, these are all things that build excitement in the game and GW is all the poorer for having abandoned them.

This is a silly argument and has clearly went way far from what was originally posted. Really, make another thread for price comparisons. This thread is just for reasoning why GW holds its secrets.

IMHO, GW guards its secrets because it only knows how to react one way when its normal modus operandii is threatened.

Internet resellers challenging their mode of distribution? ATTACK THEM and RAISE PRICES.

Fan clubs redistributing GW materials that were offered by GW for free and forming communities for otherwise discontinued games made by GW?
ATTACK THEM (with lawyers)... as the product lines are otherwise dead, raising prices isn't much of an option here, much to their dismay!

The internet spoiling all their future releases? DENY ALL THE RUMOURS and RAISE PRICES.

Not only do they not try and understand these new trends and leverage them - they willfully and forcefully oppose them instead. Those who aren't able to change their way of thinking are in danger of extinction... and GW has been locked into this tunnel minded mentality since they sacked Andy Chambers for daring to propose that 4th Ed 40k be a rewrite. Since then it's just been cutting away everything that elevated the GW hobby above its competitors.

IMHO, 3rd Ed was the Golden Years of 40k. There were new armies, the Armageddon and Eye of Terror battle campaigns, White Dwarf with Chapter Approved articles, Index Astartes, Fat Bloke, and Tale of 4 Gamers! I truly feel that 4th Ed was 40k jumping the shark and 5th Ed is a symptom of the dead fish bounce (with 5th Ed being an improvement in core rules, but lacking all the ancilliary cool stuf which made 3rd Ed a success).

keezus wrote:IMHO, GW guards its secrets because it only knows how to react one way when its normal modus operandii is threatened.

Internet resellers challenging their mode of distribution? ATTACK THEM and RAISE PRICES.

Not exactly how that worked. Sorry bucko.

Fan clubs redistributing GW materials that were offered by GW for free and forming communities for otherwise discontinued games made by GW?
ATTACK THEM (with lawyers)... as the product lines are otherwise dead, raising prices isn't much of an option here, much to their dismay!

Again, not exactly what happened. "Fan clubs" were redistributing copywritten material, and making money off it. Another part of the issue is that alot of the material they were distributing was things done under license that Games Workshop no longer owned--and would get Games Workshop in legal trouble for it even being out there in the first place, as their licensing was no longer involved.

The internet spoiling all their future releases? DENY ALL THE RUMOURS and RAISE PRICES.

One of these things does not mean anything with the other. Rumors was because they wanted to shut down all the ceaseless whining brought about from people when they saw a model but the photos weren't actual "nice" photos, but instead some fatass tub of lard taking a photo through a display case and then wanting to be lauded on the interwebs.

Not only do they not try and understand these new trends and leverage them - they willfully and forcefully oppose them instead. Those who aren't able to change their way of thinking are in danger of extinction... and GW has been locked into this tunnel minded mentality since they sacked Andy Chambers for daring to propose that 4th Ed 40k be a rewrite. Since then it's just been cutting away everything that elevated the GW hobby above its competitors.

You've been so incredibly wrong so far I'm not surprised about this one.
Andy Chambers LEFT Games Workshop to work at Mongoose Publishing and found Red Star Games. He canned those, and now works at Blizzard Entertainment.

Go ahead, look at the credits for Starcraft II: Wings of Liberty.

IMHO, 3rd Ed was the Golden Years of 40k. There were new armies, the Armageddon and Eye of Terror battle campaigns, White Dwarf with Chapter Approved articles, Index Astartes, Fat Bloke, and Tale of 4 Gamers! I truly feel that 4th Ed was 40k jumping the shark and 5th Ed is a symptom of the dead fish bounce (with 5th Ed being an improvement in core rules, but lacking all the ancilliary cool stuf which made 3rd Ed a success).

Oh yes, fantastic. We had Armageddon and Eye of Terror--where people would actually falsify game results. That was amazing fun! Like the Florida election--but with gamers!

@Kanluwen: So basically you're saying that GW doesn't provide previews because they get poor feedback based on blurry pictures. I must get my head examined. I thought that stuff like strongly suggesting that the black box is NOT Space Hulk for a year and then releasing Space Hulk constituted denial... but I am corrected. That was just a defense against blurry pictures... I mean, look at all those fat slobs who were foaming at the mouth and spouting vitirol about how terrible the Black Reach and Island of Blood models were. I now see how the official pictures show their models in a whole different light! I mean, the official beastmen pictures show the range to exemplify GW's excellence to the general acclaim of the internet. Guys who say that the beastmen range is terrible obviously haven't seen the official pics. Haterz will always hate. Thanks for setting me straight!

keezus wrote:Guys who say that the beastmen range is terrible obviously haven't seen the official pics.

well minos imo dont look bad in a different color

but on the flipside poor pumba boars will always look so derpy! (and they say warhammer has gotten TOO serious!)

At any rate, the "Fan made terribad pictures = bad reviews" arguement holds zero water, considering that GW holds all the cards. As the creators of the models, they have full power over how they are revealed to their customer base.

Ask any 5 year old what they will do if you offered them and a friend a single ice cream first come first served and their friend asked first... They'd tell you that they'll ask first next time!

GW could easily solve their own problem by releasing pictures on their website and magazine BEFORE allowing the drooling public to take blurry photos of their new releases. However, they've decided NOT to do so on medium that they fully control - and instead, opted to reveal them at their "not a trade-show", fan-event-fest, Games Day... where all their rabid FANS congregate.

Considering that this unwanted outcome keeps happening... what do they expect will happen?

Both have been answered, They need to get rid of old stock and they don't want a bad opinion given to the public. Its like when AVP 2 was in production. The predalien head was massive and not proportional to the actors body so they made it very strict so no one would take bad pictures of it and make it seem as though it would be a badly made movie. GW needs to sell old stock and they can't release their new photos so they can. SO they must protect the new things to prevent leaks that degrade their product. Really, it all makes perfect sense. Everybody in here who doesn't get it just is angry that they can't see new models early.

Mewiththeface wrote:Both have been answered, They need to get rid of old stock and they don't want a bad opinion given to the public. Its like when AVP 2 was in production. The predalien head was massive and not proportional to the actors body so they made it very strict so no one would take bad pictures of it and make it seem as though it would be a badly made movie. GW needs to sell old stock and they can't release their new photos so they can. SO they must protect the new things to prevent leaks that degrade their product. Really, it all makes perfect sense. Everybody in here who doesn't get it just is angry that they can't see new models early.

1. Instruct GW stores to unbox the out of date box sets (BfSP).
2. Sell the miniatures at a discounted rate, similar to the going rate on e-bay.
3. Still make profit because you're making more than overhead and material costs anyway...

Local Stores:
Meh. Screw 'em they're not GW anyway.

Seriously, the whole "they need to get rid of stock" argument doesn't hold water because companies out date products all the time; have you ever been to an outlet store? They still make money off of discounted goods and sell mass quantities of OOP junk. Believe me, they could come out with an entire new Dark Eldar line tomorrow and they'd still be able to sell their old stock.

@Mewintheface: I don't get it. The rationale that GW doesn't spoil new models to sell old stock doesn't make any sense to me.

1. While GW doesn't provide any long range previews, they still reveal that lines are being revamped up to 6 months in advance. They just don't show any models. This means that players KNOW that there will be new models - only not what they look like. If the intent is to sell old stock, telling your customers that a line is to be redone seems to work counter to that goal... (unless stocks in that line are already depeleted)... Which brings me to:

2. Since GW controls the avenues by which product is revealed their customers and they also control their production and distribution systems - there really shouldn't be any premature reveals if old stock is an overridding factor. Any unsellable old stock caused by an early reveal of the replacement product would seem to be indicative of poor planning rather than a downside of previews in general...

3. Speaking of running down old stock - We already know that GW does this. GW systematically purged their chain of DE and Inqusition models, Specialist Games models and most special character models to reduce stocklists. Since then, some of these ranges like the DE range have been on life support (i.e. special order only). Considering how hard it is to get DE models, showcasing a few greens for some of those unbuyable models (DE special weapons - I'm looking at you!) couldn't possibly hurt sales.