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wuestenfux wrote:Well, this time I'd send a Nob Biker unit or two against them, with cybork bodies, eavy armor, power claws, big choppas, all differently equipped.

You not only have mass 3+ invulnerable saves, but you have 29 Strength 10 powerfist attacks .That's more than 10 failed 5+ invulnerable saves, all of which cause instant death.

matthc wrote:Plasma and missile launchers won't do much when nearly everything has an invulnerable save. You take the plasma on the regular thunderwolves and the missile launchers on the lords. If you wanted you could also just take them on the fenrisian wolves.

Those guys in Rhinos?

Because if they are not, they will die pretty quickly.

That's 14 dead marines from the lords alone at initiative 5

Please, allow me to reiterate.

Arctik_Firangi wrote:I could get lucky.

matthc wrote:

wuestenfux wrote:Well, this time I'd send a Nob Biker unit or two against them, with cybork bodies, eavy armor, power claws, big choppas, all differently equipped.

You not only have mass 3+ invulnerable saves, but you have 29 Strength 10 powerfist attacks .That's more than 10 failed 5+ invulnerable saves, all of which cause instant death.

Big choppas hit with initiative higher than 1 and so eventually cause some casualties.

wuestenfux wrote:I gonna play my mech Eldar army against them.
This army has to long range support and so only your precious units can take down my tanks in cc.
This would be an interesting game.

That would prove annoying, but unless you are moving the 24 each turn, you will eventually get caught. Even if you do, the rhinos just go for objectives. The lords can separate to tackle multiple serpents.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Arctik_Firangi wrote:

matthc wrote:Plasma and missile launchers won't do much when nearly everything has an invulnerable save. You take the plasma on the regular thunderwolves and the missile launchers on the lords. If you wanted you could also just take them on the fenrisian wolves.

Those guys in Rhinos?

Because if they are not, they will die pretty quickly.

That's 14 dead marines from the lords alone at initiative 5

Please, allow me to reiterate.

Arctik_Firangi wrote:I could get lucky.

^I lol'd

@ wuestenfux

You still have all the normal thunderwolves and fenrisian wolves who hit at initiative 4. I'm not saying they are going to do much. I'm just saying all the big choppas and power claws won't do that much to 10 3+ invulnerable save wounds and 12 more 2+/4+ wounds in addition to the basic 8 wounds you could just take off for giggles.

Indeed, the Orks better field a horde.
One can squeeze in 180 Orks in 1750 pts. This is what the German GT heat 1 winner in 2008 did.
Deathstar unit cripple when they get swamped.

40 scarab swarms and a monolith should be enough to spoil those plans! muhahahahah

However, a Monolith is not tougher to take down than a LR by TW power fists.

wuestenfux wrote:Indeed, the Orks better field a horde.
One can squeeze in 180 Orks in 1750 pts. This is what the German GT heat 1 winner in 2008 did.
Deathstar unit cripple when they get swamped.

I ran the numbers on 2 30 man boy squads and it killed 43 in one assault phase after accounting for fearless causalities with not even a dead thunderwolf.

I'd just shoot them with the rest of my army. You've got your entire points sunk into one giant deathstar unit with minimal troops support, my AT will spend all of 1 turn shooting rhinos before they can switch over to shooting your deathstar with the rest of my force. Libby nullzoning you, Sternguard(with 2x plasmacannon) and tacticals(with plasmacannon) in masse can make a mess of units that rely too heavily on their invulnerable save. Once you get close to my lines I use my rhino wall(that you have nothing to stop outside of CC) to stall you up to gain time, tank shock to clump you up for my blast templates. If you get into CC with a combat squad, I let it die, that you wasting an entire turn killing a 5 man squad with a ludicrously expensive unit. Heaven forbid there be multilevel ruins on the board to hide troops in as well.

Maybe I'm a little jealous that the best deathstar I could field would be hammernators in a land raider with a libby(nullzone).

For on topic I'd guess that the jetbike seer council with rerollable 4++ would be able to tarpit it for quite awhile. For value for points, Lesser Summoned Daemons from the chaos marines book, or Posessed with IoT for the 4+ invulnerable(possessed are a bit rubbish though). Equal points in Death company might give them a run for the money too, or blood talon furiosos.
For that matter, I bet equal points in Zerkers would give them a run for the money, they'd just have to hide in their rhinos that you couldn't pop outside of CC to ensure the charge. How many points is your deathstar and how many berserkers could I get for that?
Actually in the marine book an all bike/speeder army would stand a good chance just because it'd be so hard to catch.

This was also my thought to shoot the Rhinos first, since it doesn't make much sense to shoot the deathstar unit from far.

I would send in Sly Marbo and the Death Leaper. It'd be like the Tango and Cash of the 40K universe.

Sure, they wouldn't get along: one's a professional and goes by the books, the other's a loose cannon who does what he has to do regulations be damned. Eventually, they would learn to respect their differences and even become friends in the end.

Oh, and your army would lose during the wacky hijinks and exploding mini-gun vans/mirror trick part.

Xeonicfront wrote:I'd just shoot them with the rest of my army. You've got your entire points sunk into one giant deathstar unit with minimal troops support, my AT will spend all of 1 turn shooting rhinos before they can switch over to shooting your deathstar with the rest of my force. Libby nullzoning you, Sternguard(with 2x plasmacannon) and tacticals(with plasmacannon) in masse can make a mess of units that rely too heavily on their invulnerable save. Once you get close to my lines I use my rhino wall(that you have nothing to stop outside of CC) to stall you up to gain time, tank shock to clump you up for my blast templates. If you get into CC with a combat squad, I let it die, that you wasting an entire turn killing a 5 man squad with a ludicrously expensive unit. Heaven forbid there be multilevel ruins on the board to hide troops in as well.

Maybe I'm a little jealous that the best deathstar I could field would be hammernators in a land raider with a libby(nullzone).

For on topic I'd guess that the jetbike seer council with rerollable 4++ would be able to tarpit it for quite awhile. For value for points, Lesser Summoned Daemons from the chaos marines book, or Posessed with IoT for the 4+ invulnerable(possessed are a bit rubbish though). Equal points in Death company might give them a run for the money too, or blood talon furiosos.
For that matter, I bet equal points in Zerkers would give them a run for the money, they'd just have to hide in their rhinos that you couldn't pop outside of CC to ensure the charge. How many points is your deathstar and how many berserkers could I get for that?
Actually in the marine book an all bike/speeder army would stand a good chance just because it'd be so hard to catch.

Ruins do ruin this army and the rhinos are weak, but that's why you hide them and pop smoke or reserve them if need be

I'm not saying it's unbeatable. I'm just saying it isn't easy. Plasma cannons really don't do that much as the base of the model is so big that you really won't hit that many models with them spaced out. If you are even within range with nullzone, that means I'm within 24 inches of you, in which case I'm just going to take the plasma wounds( as you might cause 4 maybe with your cannons) then charge you next turn. Multi-assaulting your rhino wall will basically allow me to wipe out every rhino you have. Then comes the carnage.

The Jetbike seers die in 2 assault phases. Death company is really a waste of points to throw at them as the death company don't get feel no pain against most of the unit anyways. It's nearly a 1500 point deathstar by the way. Even though the berserkers may get the charge they still will only hit at the same time as the lords. Which is still 14 dead berzerkers from the lords alone.

lots of ork boyz can handle it. my friend runs a pretty similar list with all the TWC. And just the number of attacks im throwing back at them with 2 or 3 boyz squads in assault along with ghaz takes pretty good care of them.

keep in mind i run a kan wall list. so i have 9 str10 kans as well, and 120 boyz which for the most part will all be in assault with the unit either the first round of the assault or will get stuck in on the next turn. Dont get my wrong it is a very strong list, and it will take care of most other deathstar units, its just if you know how to deal with them then its not that much of a problem. They are also not fearless....

italiaplaya wrote:lots of ork boyz can handle it. my friend runs a pretty similar list with all the TWC. And just the number of attacks im throwing back at them with 2 or 3 boyz squads in assault along with ghaz takes pretty good care of them.

The difference between most likely his list and this list is it's not the TWC that you need to worry about, they are just there for the wounds. It's the 4 wolf lords in runic armor with a 4+ invulnerable save and power weapons. It caused 43 wounds to 60 boyz in one assault phase. Sure Ghaz has an invulnerable save, but you just take his wounds on the fenrisian wolves or the saga of the bear lord. Because Ghaz strikes last, when it's your assault phase you just target everything at Ghaz and he dies. The remaining TWC just mop up the rest of the boyz.

They kind of eat dreads for breakfast with their powerfist, not including saga of the beastslayer. While this unit isn't fearless it has a re-rollable LD 10. But ork boyz are fearless in large numbers, which means every wound you cause essentially causes another wound.

These 4 Wolflords are really impressive.
With ablative wounds taken by the Wolves they are really hard to take down.
On the other hand, a 1500 deathstar combo should be on par with this deathstar.

wuestenfux wrote:
On the other hand, a 1500 deathstar combo should be on par with this deathstar.

I can't really think of any other ones... lol.

matthc wrote:I'm not saying it's unbeatable. I'm just saying it isn't easy. Plasma cannons really don't do that much as the base of the model is so big that you really won't hit that many models with them spaced out. If you are even within range with nullzone, that means I'm within 24 inches of you, in which case I'm just going to take the plasma wounds( as you might cause 4 maybe with your cannons) then charge you next turn. Multi-assaulting your rhino wall will basically allow me to wipe out every rhino you have. Then comes the carnage.

The Jetbike seers die in 2 assault phases. Death company is really a waste of points to throw at them as the death company don't get feel no pain against most of the unit anyways. It's nearly a 1500 point deathstar by the way. Even though the berserkers may get the charge they still will only hit at the same time as the lords. Which is still 14 dead berzerkers from the lords alone.

My 2k marine list can feed you combat squads all day long, while the guys in the back happily plasma cannon you to death with nullzone support(I can nullzone from inside a backfield rhino!). My point was that a 10 man 1500 pt unit with 2+ and 3+ saves can be brought down by massed firepower relatively easily. And yes, I can feed it rhinos and combat squads(5 bolter marines at first, then sarges and special/heavy weapons as needed. I never claimed it would be an easy fight, just that it was doable because it would boil down to my entire 2k PT army vs a single 10 man unit. It's not like I'm going to lie there and let you multiassault full sternguard squads.
Every time you munch a 5 man squad you'll be open for the rest of my army to shoot you for a turn.

The berzerker list I was thinking of goes like this:

Blood for the Blood god!
Kharn
9 berzerkers with fistychamp and a plasma pistol in a rhino
10 zerkers with fistychamp in a rhino
10 zerkers with fistychamp in a rhino
10 zerkers with fistychamp in a rhino
10 zerkers with fistychamp in a rhino
10 zerkers with fistychamp in a rhino
Predator with lascannonn sponsons

I would honestly like to see your 10 man deathstar chew through 59 berserkers led by kharn. That would be an epic battle.

Xeonicfront wrote:

matthc wrote:I'm not saying it's unbeatable. I'm just saying it isn't easy. Plasma cannons really don't do that much as the base of the model is so big that you really won't hit that many models with them spaced out. If you are even within range with nullzone, that means I'm within 24 inches of you, in which case I'm just going to take the plasma wounds( as you might cause 4 maybe with your cannons) then charge you next turn. Multi-assaulting your rhino wall will basically allow me to wipe out every rhino you have. Then comes the carnage.

The Jetbike seers die in 2 assault phases. Death company is really a waste of points to throw at them as the death company don't get feel no pain against most of the unit anyways. It's nearly a 1500 point deathstar by the way. Even though the berserkers may get the charge they still will only hit at the same time as the lords. Which is still 14 dead berzerkers from the lords alone.

My 2k marine list can feed you combat squads all day long, while the guys in the back happily plasma cannon you to death with nullzone support(I can nullzone from inside a backfield rhino!). My point was that a 10 man 1500 pt unit with 2+ and 3+ saves can be brought down by massed firepower relatively easily. And yes, I can feed it rhinos and combat squads(5 bolter marines at first, then sarges and special/heavy weapons as needed. I never claimed it would be an easy fight, just that it was doable because it would boil down to my entire 2k PT army vs a single 10 man unit. It's not like I'm going to lie there and let you multiassault full sternguard squads.
Every time you munch a 5 man squad you'll be open for the rest of my army to shoot you for a turn.

The berzerker list I was thinking of goes like this:

Blood for the Blood god!
Kharn
9 berzerkers with fistychamp and a plasma pistol in a rhino
10 zerkers with fistychamp in a rhino
10 zerkers with fistychamp in a rhino
10 zerkers with fistychamp in a rhino
10 zerkers with fistychamp in a rhino
10 zerkers with fistychamp in a rhino
Predator with lascannonn sponsons

I would honestly like to see your 10 man deathstar chew through 59 berserkers led by kharn. That would be an epic battle.

When the units hit your lines, you probably won't be able to plasma things without hitting your own units, who you have a greater chance of hurting. While the nullzone is in the backfield, I'm assuming your own units are between me and your cannons, in which case I would still get cover. It's also more than just a 10 man units, it's a ten man 30 wound unit. With an 18-24 inch threat range. When I said multi-assault I was also implying that the 4 lords could separate from the main unit (as they are IC) once they get in close. Allocating one lord per 5 man squad allows me to kill far more than 1 squad per turn. More like 5 combat squads per turn. Against the zerker list, you can surround the rhinos so that when they get destroyed and can't emergency disembark they die.

Off topic but my favorite plasma cannon shot ever was one that drifted max scatter and immobilized my own predator. Hilarity ensues.

Splitting off the lords is a great idea, makes them easier to target individually and eliminate piecemeal with hellfire rapidfires.
I'm not going to defend this battle via text anymore, it would have to be decided on the table as a great deal depends on deployment and terrain layout.

You assume a lot with the zerkers, mainly that I'll send out those rhinos piecemeal allowing them to be surrounded and blown up. The beauty of combatting your list is that aside from CC it can't do anything so I wouldn't need to even move and can use the rhinos to tank shock and speedbump as needed.

How would you even deal with a biker list, I just don't see it happening.

This list actually has more mobility in assault terms than the bikers. Yeah the bikers can move 24 all day. But if they are doing that they can't assault. While the calvary can assault 18-24 inches. Eventually you can catch them and it's not like the bikers have anything going for them in close combat when you compare them.

The only thing is if you sit still with the zerksers in an objective game all I do is put my rhinos on objectives and send the unit at you while you sit back and wait to get assaulted. Sure it will be a massive slugfest, but in the end I will probably have 4 unmolested marine squads in rhinos. I do agree that you this argument can never fully be proven via text, I'm just trying to say that there is no real "easy" way to beat it, while it can beat most lists and almost all rock units "easily".

Centurian 99 came up with the 8 Crushers kitted out with 3 Heralds of Khorne. All heralds have Juggs, Rending, Unholy Might. Add Skulltaker and the unit comes out to 925 points. To make it fair you could throw another 8 crushers in kitted out for 360. To put it near 1500 you could add another kitted out 8 crushers for 360 more.

The main unit would be 15 or so attacks on the charge at S7.
Skulltaker would be 6 attacks at S6 but 4+ to wound insta kills
The crushers are 32 attacks on charge at S6 with power weapons per 8.

Norbu the Destroyer wrote:Centurian 99 came up with the 8 Crushers kitted out with 3 Heralds of Khorne. All heralds have Juggs, Rending, Unholy Might. Add Skulltaker and the unit comes out to 925 points. To make it fair you could throw another 8 crushers in kitted out for 360. To put it near 1500 you could add another kitted out 8 crushers for 360 more.

The main unit would be 15 or so attacks on the charge at S7.
Skulltaker would be 6 attacks at S6 but 4+ to wound insta kills
The crushers are 32 attacks on charge at S6 with power weapons per 8.

Except when you get this far into designing a unit to specifically take out this unit your army gets where it can't handle anything else. For instance said army would fold like butter to raider spam and particularly struggle against armies that demons normally have trouble with. You are also forgetting that the crusher unit would never get off the charge against the superior mobility of the calvary. I'm going to run the stats now. This does seem like a tough one though.
.

A Witch Hunter Inquisitor with Divine Pronouncement coupled with a Psyker Battle squad using Weaken Resolve would make one very unhappy bunch of Space Puppies.

It's not a combination one would expect to see normally, but it would make for a fun game.

pzbw7z wrote:A Witch Hunter Inquisitor with Divine Pronouncement coupled with a Psyker Battle squad using Weaken Resolve would make one very unhappy bunch of Space Puppies.

It's not a combination one would expect to see normally, but it would make for a fun game.

At least you'd get a 5+ save. Plus your leadership check would still be re-rollable. You could also separate the Lords into different squads. You also have an 18-24 in range which should prevent you from being scared away too quickly.

When the units hit your lines, you probably won't be able to plasma things without hitting your own units, who you have a greater chance of hurting. While the nullzone is in the backfield, I'm assuming your own units are between me and your cannons, in which case I would still get cover. It's also more than just a 10 man units, it's a ten man 30 wound unit. With an 18-24 inch threat range. When I said multi-assault I was also implying that the 4 lords could separate from the main unit (as they are IC) once they get in close. Allocating one lord per 5 man squad allows me to kill far more than 1 squad per turn. More like 5 combat squads per turn. Against the zerker list, you can surround the rhinos so that when they get destroyed and can't emergency disembark they die.

The army is pretty sick and other than massed Demolishers I'm not sure what would do well against it. Mobile armies could advoid it though and in an objective game I'd fancy Mechdar against it, but dealing with the unit is difficult and as you've said it is also highly mobile itself.

However the above comment had me laughing due to the bolded comments:

Firstly why would you worry about cover in a unit where everything has a 3++ or 4++ save? Cover makes no difference to your unit (except for the Fenrisian ablative wounds).

Secondly with 29 S10 attacks as you keep going on about I beleive it is pretty likely that you'll blow those Rhinos up rather than wreck them and at best you'll be able to surround 2 rhinos before getting assaulted. At best you're looking at 1 unit being destroyed by the surrounding trick but even that is very unlikely.

You also keep talking about asigning wounds where ever you want in CC, which of course you can't do. Those ICs and TWC are separate units on that front.

Also how would it hold up against Termagants in spods with devourers? 3 Units pumping 180 S4 shots into you in 1 turn (that's just 720 points)? Yeah opne unit then gets munched and you get another 120 shots into you. So first turn 90 hits, 30 wounds. That's probably all but 1 or 2 of your fenrisians dead, and probably 2 of the TWC and a wound or 2 off the lords (as a total not each). Now you've got 20 more wounds. Now probably looking at the rest of the TWC going down and it's just your lords left... Just a thought.

FlingitNow wrote:

When the units hit your lines, you probably won't be able to plasma things without hitting your own units, who you have a greater chance of hurting. While the nullzone is in the backfield, I'm assuming your own units are between me and your cannons, in which case I would still get cover. It's also more than just a 10 man units, it's a ten man 30 wound unit. With an 18-24 inch threat range. When I said multi-assault I was also implying that the 4 lords could separate from the main unit (as they are IC) once they get in close. Allocating one lord per 5 man squad allows me to kill far more than 1 squad per turn. More like 5 combat squads per turn. Against the zerker list, you can surround the rhinos so that when they get destroyed and can't emergency disembark they die.

The army is pretty sick and other than massed Demolishers I'm not sure what would do well against it. Mobile armies could advoid it though and in an objective game I'd fancy Mechdar against it, but dealing with the unit is difficult and as you've said it is also highly mobile itself.

However the above comment had me laughing due to the bolded comments:

Firstly why would you worry about cover in a unit where everything has a 3++ or 4++ save? Cover makes no difference to your unit (except for the Fenrisian ablative wounds).

Secondly with 29 S10 attacks as you keep going on about I beleive it is pretty likely that you'll blow those Rhinos up rather than wreck them and at best you'll be able to surround 2 rhinos before getting assaulted. At best you're looking at 1 unit being destroyed by the surrounding trick but even that is very unlikely.

You also keep talking about asigning wounds where ever you want in CC, which of course you can't do. Those ICs and TWC are separate units on that front.

Also how would it hold up against Termagants in spods with devourers? 3 Units pumping 180 S4 shots into you in 1 turn (that's just 720 points)? Yeah opne unit then gets munched and you get another 120 shots into you. So first turn 90 hits, 30 wounds. That's probably all but 1 or 2 of your fenrisians dead, and probably 2 of the TWC and a wound or 2 off the lords (as a total not each). Now you've got 20 more wounds. Now probably looking at the rest of the TWC going down and it's just your lords left... Just a thought.

The cover was in case someone was using nullzone and AP 2 weaponry. If you blow up a transport and the unit inside can't disembark they get destroyed. You are right about assigning the wounds, but you can place the ones you want into base to base with the ones you want. For instance, placing wolves or saga of the bear into base to base with anything with S10. Because the wolves travel with each lord, it's not that hard to do.

The termagants could cause a dent but that is also assuming proper drops, everything coming in where you and when you want them. Versus multiple squads it's almost always into your best interests to separate the wolves off as you want. That way you can eat through multiple units, not just one at a time.

If you blow up a transport and the unit inside can't disembark they get destroyed.

No only if you wreck the vehicle if it explodes they have the footprint to place their models in...

You are right about assigning the wounds, but you can place the ones you want into base to base with the ones you want. For instance, placing wolves or saga of the bear into base to base with anything with S10. Because the wolves travel with each lord, it's not that hard to do.

That depends on you getting the charge and your opponent being moronic enough to not have his S10 or instagib stuff surrounded in his unit so when you charge he gets to choose where they fight...

You are right about assigning the wounds, but you can place the ones you want into base to base with the ones you want. For instance, placing wolves or saga of the bear into base to base with anything with S10. Because the wolves travel with each lord, it's not that hard to do.

I'll give you the when, but the where is easily dealt with as they have an 18" range and only scatter a maximum of 12". These are just troops choices so a guy could have say 5 such units as his troops choices and still have enough points to build a balanced army (the rest of the points going into Zoanthropes and Devourer totting Flyrants with Hive Commander spares spent on Trygons ). That way he's pretty much guaranteed to get 3 coming at 1 time.

FlingitNow wrote:

If you blow up a transport and the unit inside can't disembark they get destroyed.

No only if you wreck the vehicle if it explodes they have the footprint to place their models in...

You are right about assigning the wounds, but you can place the ones you want into base to base with the ones you want. For instance, placing wolves or saga of the bear into base to base with anything with S10. Because the wolves travel with each lord, it's not that hard to do.

That depends on you getting the charge and your opponent being moronic enough to not have his S10 or instagib stuff surrounded in his unit so when you charge he gets to choose where they fight...

You are right about assigning the wounds, but you can place the ones you want into base to base with the ones you want. For instance, placing wolves or saga of the bear into base to base with anything with S10. Because the wolves travel with each lord, it's not that hard to do.

I'll give you the when, but the where is easily dealt with as they have an 18" range and only scatter a maximum of 12". These are just troops choices so a guy could have say 5 such units as his troops choices and still have enough points to build a balanced army (the rest of the points going into Zoanthropes and Devourer totting Flyrants with Hive Commander spares spent on Trygons ). That way he's pretty much guaranteed to get 3 coming at 1 time.

Well you could just set up the calvary surrounded by the rhinos with them blocking line of sight, so that they don't get there shots off. Because your charge range is greater than the shooting range of the gants, you are pretty much guaranteed to get the charge off. With one or two lords per troop you should eat through them until they are dead. Which gets rid of your opponents troops.

Well you could just set up the calvary surrounded by the rhinos with them blocking line of sight, so that they don't get there shots off. Because your charge range is greater than the shooting range of the gants, you are pretty much guaranteed to get the charge off. With one or two lords per troop you should eat through them until they are dead. Which gets rid of your opponents troops.

Your threat range isn't greater than the range on the gants. They too can move giving them a guaranteed 24" threat range rather than your 19"-24" (which can also be slowed by terrain, which can only possibly effect 6" of the gant threat range it can effect 18" of yours). Blocking LoS to 10 60mm bases and 8 bikebases with 4 Rhinos would be an impressive feat and again as pointed out the rest of the army would include Zoanthropes who could just blast those Rhinos apart... Not to mention the Devourer Flyrant.

It's not like you circle the entire unit. You use the rhinos to form walls and prevent your opponent from going places you want them to. Assuming Zoanthropes are there is also assuming that everything landed perfectly. If the Zoanthropes are in range to shoot the rhinos, then you charge them. Because the HQ's are in the units, you roll 3d6 for difficult terrain and double it. It's not that limiting. Even if things don't work out you are correct, you will probably kill all the wolves, put a wound or two on the thunderwolves and on the lords, but the lords who are the real threat are still alive and next turn you charge nearly everything that you can. Your goal is to take as much as you can handle in 2 assault phases. That way you are not left out in the open.