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It's not like you circle the entire unit. You use the rhinos to form walls and prevent your opponent from going places you want them to. Assuming Zoanthropes are there is also assuming that everything landed perfectly. If the Zoanthropes are in range to shoot the rhinos, then you charge them. Because the HQ's are in the units, you roll 3d6 for difficult terrain and double it. It's not that limiting. Even if things don't work out you are correct, you will probably kill all the wolves, put a wound or two on the thunderwolves and on the lords, but the lords who are the real threat are still alive and next turn you charge nearly everything that you can. Your goal is to take as much as you can handle in 2 assault phases. That way you are not left out in the open.

You'd assault the Zoanthropes? Good luck with that tactic they are not the threat to your army, that's 360 S4 shots you've taken then before you even start to deal with the threat, given Hive commander actually all 5 units should be on the table by then so assume 3 in turn 2 and the other 2 in turn 3 that's a total of 480 S4 shots your unit has taken BEFORE they've started assaulting my gants. So 80 wounds you've had to deal with (approximately 25 wounds suffered by the unit after the FWs are all dead, and how many wounds was the unit again?). Here's also an interesting one since the FWs are T4 that makes your Lords T4 in combat until at least 1 FW is dead.

Still not sure how you are holing up your entire army in 1 block (lets hope I don't take a Mawloc otherwise your unit is instagibed) and stopping some one from DSing in with drop pods in areas within 18" of you...

Not saying terrain is that limiting just pointing out I'd have to be pretty dumb or you'd have to be very lucky for me not to be able to get the shots off before you can assault me.

FlingitNow wrote:

It's not like you circle the entire unit. You use the rhinos to form walls and prevent your opponent from going places you want them to. Assuming Zoanthropes are there is also assuming that everything landed perfectly. If the Zoanthropes are in range to shoot the rhinos, then you charge them. Because the HQ's are in the units, you roll 3d6 for difficult terrain and double it. It's not that limiting. Even if things don't work out you are correct, you will probably kill all the wolves, put a wound or two on the thunderwolves and on the lords, but the lords who are the real threat are still alive and next turn you charge nearly everything that you can. Your goal is to take as much as you can handle in 2 assault phases. That way you are not left out in the open.

You'd assault the Zoanthropes? Good luck with that tactic they are not the threat to your army, that's 360 S4 shots you've taken then before you even start to deal with the threat, given Hive commander actually all 5 units should be on the table by then so assume 3 in turn 2 and the other 2 in turn 3 that's a total of 480 S4 shots your unit has taken BEFORE they've started assaulting my gants. So 80 wounds you've had to deal with (approximately 25 wounds suffered by the unit after the FWs are all dead, and how many wounds was the unit again?). Here's also an interesting one since the FWs are T4 that makes your Lords T4 in combat until at least 1 FW is dead.

Still not sure how you are holing up your entire army in 1 block (lets hope I don't take a Mawloc otherwise your unit is instagibed) and stopping some one from DSing in with drop pods in areas within 18" of you...

Not saying terrain is that limiting just pointing out I'd have to be pretty dumb or you'd have to be very lucky for me not to be able to get the shots off before you can assault me.

Couple of things. One, the fenrisian wolfs don't count as a retinue in close combat, instead they are just wargear, so they don't reduce the toughness of the lords. Secondly by assaulting the zoanthropes you are able to get closer to the rest of the army. Assuming I was behind rhinos means that you shooting you are shooting your zoanthropes at the rhinos who have popped smoke. I really don't care what happens to the rhinos, all that is important is that the unit was screened for a turn. Then I charge anything within range. Because of scatter I'm sure something will be in range. If nothing is then the Zoanthropes get the charge and once combat is over I consolidate 6 more inches. Plus because you have invested nearly 1500 points into your troops you really don't have that much synapse besides the zoanthropes and the flyrant. So once those things are dead, say goodbye to the synapse. Then it's game over. To begin with 24 inches isn't that much range to play with when 18-24 is within threat range. What I'm saying is that it's not easy. I'm also saying that when you build an army like that you are going to have trouble versus nearly every other army.

It's actually bang on 1200 points for the troops. I'm not saying it is a great army but it is viable. You'd have to pack as much AT into that final 800 points as you can get your hands on though. Against a mech list you need to pop his transports the turn you arrive so the Termagants can maul his infantry. Which why you'd probably have 9 Zoanthropes also in spods and a Flyrant and that'd probably be your lot. If you cut it down to just 3 units the list would be far more viable and still have enough firepower to maul your 1 squad army.

Remember Synapse really isn't that important anymore to a 'Nid list. Those Termagants just stand and fire at your Wolves which is what you want anyway...

I'm not saying I'd definitely win or it is a big hole in your army. Just saying it is a match up that would cause you problems and isn't a totally 1 dimensional army, like the others suggested to stop you. (9 Leman Russ Demolishers would also give you a headache, but auto-lose to many other types of army).

The star would most likely have problems with a decent Necron army.

HQ Lord w/res orb, VoD
HQ Lord w/res orb, VoD
Monolith
Monolith
5 Destroyers
5 Destroyers
5 Destroyers
10 Warriors(With HQ1)
10 Warriors(With HQ2)

First, the destroyers would have better range that you as well as a fast speed as to keep out of Assault.
Second, the Warriors would not be an immobile target as VoD along with Monoliths would prove to be a nuisance to try to assault(though with init 2 you'd wipe them if you got them into assault).
Third, All my Warriors would get 2 allowed WBB even from your Power Fists as of res orb/Lith Port.

This would definitely pose a threat to your star...I would like to see it actually play out though..

FlingitNow wrote:It's actually bang on 1200 points for the troops. I'm not saying it is a great army but it is viable. You'd have to pack as much AT into that final 800 points as you can get your hands on though. Against a mech list you need to pop his transports the turn you arrive so the Termagants can maul his infantry. Which why you'd probably have 9 Zoanthropes also in spods and a Flyrant and that'd probably be your lot. If you cut it down to just 3 units the list would be far more viable and still have enough firepower to maul your 1 squad army.

Remember Synapse really isn't that important anymore to a 'Nid list. Those Termagants just stand and fire at your Wolves which is what you want anyway...

I'm not saying I'd definitely win or it is a big hole in your army. Just saying it is a match up that would cause you problems and isn't a totally 1 dimensional army, like the others suggested to stop you. (9 Leman Russ Demolishers would also give you a headache, but auto-lose to many other types of army).

I think it would stand the best chance of the things thrown at it ( The Daemon army really bogged it down when I ran the stats but it's really really one dimensional ). I know synapse isn't that great but it allows you to sweeping advance the units you charge. I'm not really afraid of demolishers because they only have a range of 24 and you can spread out your units and you have multiple invulnerable saves.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Perfections wrote:The star would most likely have problems with a decent Necron army.

HQ Lord w/res orb, VoD
HQ Lord w/res orb, VoD
Monolith
Monolith
5 Destroyers
5 Destroyers
5 Destroyers
10 Warriors(With HQ1)
10 Warriors(With HQ2)

First, the destroyers would have better range that you as well as a fast speed as to keep out of Assault.
Second, the Warriors would not be an immobile target as VoD along with Monoliths would prove to be a nuisance to try to assault(though with init 2 you'd wipe them if you got them into assault).
Third, All my Warriors would get 2 allowed WBB even from your Power Fists as of res orb/Lith Port.

This would definitely pose a threat to your star...I would like to see it actually play out though..

The monoliths get eaten by the 29 Strength 10 powerfists. The destroyers really don't cause that much damage to them. If the Warriors with the lords get charged then the lords will most likely die as well.

"The star would most likely have problems with a decent Necron army."

^ I lol'd at decent Necron army.

I know synapse isn't that great but it allows you to sweeping advance the units you charge.

Against your wolves the ability to sweeping advance is pretty much moot, once you're in combat I'm not surviving to get a chance to run a way and to be honest I'd probably have a greater chance of surviving a sweeping advance roll off than the fearless wounds... It would also mean you're definitely out of assault after you charge so I can shoot you.

Yeah with the big bases those demolishers would struggle to get that many hits. I'd target the ferisians as they're likely to be tighter packed as they are on smaller bases. But good point even 9 demolisher rounds could struggle to put much of a dent in the unit and then next turn they are all dead...

FlingitNow wrote:

I know synapse isn't that great but it allows you to sweeping advance the units you charge.

Against your wolves the ability to sweeping advance is pretty much moot, once you're in combat I'm not surviving to get a chance to run a way and to be honest I'd probably have a greater chance of surviving a sweeping advance roll off than the fearless wounds... It would also mean you're definitely out of assault after you charge so I can shoot you.

Yeah with the big bases those demolishers would struggle to get that many hits. I'd target the ferisians as they're likely to be tighter packed as they are on smaller bases. But good point even 9 demolisher rounds could struggle to put much of a dent in the unit and then next turn they are all dead...

It's not moot if you split of the Lords. Because the lords are split off, they are causing more wounds than they take, but they aren't killing them in one turn. Consequently running them down could cause a ton of wounds. The fenrisian wounds aren't a separate unit, they are just with each lord (specifically within 2 inches).

The monoliths get eaten by the 29 Strength 10 powerfists. The destroyers really don't cause that much damage to them. If the Warriors with the lords get charged then the lords will most likely die as well.

To hit the monoliths(a bad idea in the first place) you'd have to be shot at by the destroyers/warriors first. thats 61 shots into your guys. What I'm saying is, eventually you will end up losing as you would not be able to assault the warriors or destroyers, while at least the destroyers would be able to shoot into them....that is still 15 S6 AP4 shots going into you...this of course is not including the two particle whips from the monoliths...Ord1 Blast S9 AP3

that is still 15 S6 AP4 shots going into you...

Do the maths on that. Trust me that fire power will barely scratch him.

Look at my list I was throwing about 480 S4 shots into the unit to take it out. 15 even at S6 is not a concern. Nor even 61 a major one.

FlingitNow wrote:

that is still 15 S6 AP4 shots going into you...

Do the maths on that. Trust me that fire power will barely scratch him.

Look at my list I was throwing about 480 S4 shots into the unit to take it out. 15 even at S6 is not a concern. Nor even 61 a major one.

Again, as I said, not being able to hit me while I am hitting him is what is going to do it for me...

Perfections wrote:

FlingitNow wrote:

that is still 15 S6 AP4 shots going into you...

Do the maths on that. Trust me that fire power will barely scratch him.

Look at my list I was throwing about 480 S4 shots into the unit to take it out. 15 even at S6 is not a concern. Nor even 61 a major one.

Again, as I said, not being able to hit me while I am hitting him is what is going to do it for me...

You're banking on the ability of your unit to scatter effectively. If you scatter within 18-24 inches you are going to get assaulted and die. Simple as that. In addition this unit laughs at that army. It's kind of ridiculous to state that you can stay out of range.

I wonder how an assaulty eldar army would hold against it, with mobs of banshees.

Banshees will always get their attacks, and have counter charge to try to increase the number of attacks they throw out.

I suppose the problem is hitting enough sixes- even with doom support, However, all thigns considered, I think they elves could squeeze in enough cc attacks to make the wolves blush. Especially considering even enhanced stormies would go simo with the lords.

Possibly something like this.

Yriel
Farseer- Doom

3x 10 Banshees- Exarch, Executioner, both powers

3x 10 Storm Guardians + Warlock- Enhance, 2 meltas

5x Wave Serpent- Bright Lance

1x Wave Serpent- scatter laser

So you get the super mobility so the elves can get all their bodies into assault at once, farseer hangs out in a transport and dooms away. If the elves can get all 64 bodies (30 banshees, 30 storm guardians, 3 warlocks, yriel) into a doomed death star... it could be interesting, especially since the banshees are guaranteed to go first

If the elves can get all 64 bodies (30 banshees, 30 storm guardians, 3 warlocks, yriel) into a doomed death star... it could be interesting, especially since the banshees are guaranteed to go first

Even then I wouldn't say the deathstar was doomed and this army is also pretty one dimensional.

akaean wrote:I wonder how an assaulty eldar army would hold against it, with mobs of banshees.

Banshees will always get their attacks, and have counter charge to try to increase the number of attacks they throw out.

I suppose the problem is hitting enough sixes- even with doom support, However, all thigns considered, I think they elves could squeeze in enough cc attacks to make the wolves blush. Especially considering even enhanced stormies would go simo with the lords.

Possibly something like this.

Yriel
Farseer- Doom

3x 10 Banshees- Exarch, Executioner, both powers

3x 10 Storm Guardians + Warlock- Enhance, 2 meltas

5x Wave Serpent- Bright Lance

1x Wave Serpent- scatter laser

So you get the super mobility so the elves can get all their bodies into assault at once, farseer hangs out in a transport and dooms away. If the elves can get all 64 bodies (30 banshees, 30 storm guardians, 3 warlocks, yriel) into a doomed death star... it could be interesting, especially since the banshees are guaranteed to go first

Actually while eldar have mobility, they lack assault mobility because you are forced to let your serpents stand still for a turn before the contents can disembark and assault. This leaves you open to get your serpents destroyed. Even assuming the banshees get off the charge, that's only 30 attacks 15 of which hit and (assuming doom works as you have a 5+ to negate) you still need sixes which I take for maybe 5 wounds per squad. With invulnerable saves everywhere 15 power weapon wounds won't really do that much especially when you consider that it would be pretty hard to get everything into assault where you want them. However the return blows are going to easily wipe one and a half squads maybe 2, all in the first assault phase, after which everything is reduced to regular initiative. It is also very one dimensional.

FlingitNow wrote:
Even then I wouldn't say the deathstar was doomed and this army is also pretty one dimensional.

I meant the psychic power

I also think that in terms of "assault eldar" the list isn't too bad. You've got 6 melta guns for heavy tanks, as well as 5 bright lances. Not to mention a lot of warm bodies to throw into assault. You have the speed to catch most lists, and you have an Autarch to play reserve shenanigans if you don't get first turn against things like guard or tau. The list will probably have a lot of problems with green tide, so possibly swapping 2 of the melta squads for flamers would help alleviate this, but I don't think its a super one dimensional list by any means.



At anyrate, the wave serpents never actually need to sit still, they still will be moving 12 inches per turn and as long as the troops disembark before the movement, they can move + fleet + assault all they want. This means you'll always need 6s to hit them. Clever placement of serpents also limits the damage of your charge to one wave serpent filled with storm guardians. Sure it will probably be destroyed, but you won't kill all of the elves inside, and you'll get doomed + charged by everything next turn.

There is also order of operations to consider. The 30 Banshees and Yriel are going to try to target the 4 wolf lords, and the 30 storm guardians will target the normal thunderwolves (assuming they can). That puts 7.5 banshees on each wolf lord, with Yriel's own power weapon attacks hitting as well, if those go down, that knocks out a lot of points and counter attack.

The storm guardians go next at I5, Ws4, and try to clean up the fenresian wolves, and put some damage on the calvery. Essentially it would be all about trying to mitigate the ferocity of the counter attack.

The 30 Banshees and Yriel are going to try to target the 4 wolf lords, and the 30 storm guardians will target the normal thunderwolves (assuming they can).

This is your problem. You can't do this. The banshees have to move in 1 unit at a time and HAVE to engage un-engaged models first if possible. Logistically getting that many guys into assault will be impossible in 1 go. You won't have the movement. I also don't see you stopping him from taking out at least 2 Wave Serpents on the charge. BUt the Serpents are largely irrelevant to this fight it is tthe CC that will win or lose you the game and I'd put my money on the puppies.

akaean wrote:

FlingitNow wrote:
Even then I wouldn't say the deathstar was doomed and this army is also pretty one dimensional.

I meant the psychic power

I also think that in terms of "assault eldar" the list isn't too bad. You've got 6 melta guns for heavy tanks, as well as 5 bright lances. Not to mention a lot of warm bodies to throw into assault. You have the speed to catch most lists, and you have an Autarch to play reserve shenanigans if you don't get first turn against things like guard or tau. The list will probably have a lot of problems with green tide, so possibly swapping 2 of the melta squads for flamers would help alleviate this, but I don't think its a super one dimensional list by any means.



At anyrate, the wave serpents never actually need to sit still, they still will be moving 12 inches per turn and as long as the troops disembark before the movement, they can move + fleet + assault all they want. This means you'll always need 6s to hit them. Clever placement of serpents also limits the damage of your charge to one wave serpent filled with storm guardians. Sure it will probably be destroyed, but you won't kill all of the elves inside, and you'll get doomed + charged by everything next turn.

There is also order of operations to consider. The 30 Banshees and Yriel are going to try to target the 4 wolf lords, and the 30 storm guardians will target the normal thunderwolves (assuming they can). That puts 7.5 banshees on each wolf lord, with Yriel's own power weapon attacks hitting as well, if those go down, that knocks out a lot of points and counter attack.

The storm guardians go next at I5, Ws4, and try to clean up the fenresian wolves, and put some damage on the calvery. Essentially it would be all about trying to mitigate the ferocity of the counter attack.

For you to get the charge. You will need to move 12 or move inches and place the serpents within disembark, move and assault range. Either way your serpents are going to get charged and all hits are penetrations which should take care of the serpents. Now you lack mobility. Sure you then charge, but you have to get doom off and then you have to hope, because you can't just target the lords each model must first move to un-engaged enemy models (most likely the fenrisian wolves who are in front) then everything else. So you are almost guaranteed to waste 8 banshees on fenrisian wolves. Sure the wolves will die which will affect combat resolution, but most likely you are going to lose 20+ models in the first round of assault. Which will most likely cause you to fail in which case you will run away and because you are less than half you won't rally. If you were able to charge everything at the wolves (by everything I mean 60 models) you might do a lot of damage, but you simply won't be able to get that many models into assault.