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Well, i made a 2k pt fluffy mono khorne list and posted it a few days ago. Ya said you wouldn't mind a soul grinder, and its the only thing in the army that can shoot.

There's 8 total units, 5 of which number 8 models. Only things not @8 are the Bloodthirster, grinder and prince obviously.

BLOODFORTHEBLOODGOD!

Blood thirster /w unholy might & blessing of blood god 275

Skulltaker on a juggernaut 175
Herald of khorne on a juggernaut /w icon, blessing of blood god and unholy might 150

7x Blood crushers, fury of khorne instrument of chaos, chaos icon 320
8x blood crushers 320

7x blood letters, instrument 117
8x Blood letters, instrument 133
8x Blood letters, instrument 133

Daemon prince, flight, iron hide, unholy might, mark of khorne, blessing of the blood god. 215
Soul grinder /w phlegm (battlecannon shot) 160

herald goes with the letters #ing 7, skulltaker goes with the crushers that are 7

SaintHazard wrote:I hear the Tau are pretty nasty in close combat.

But you really should go for shooty Tyranids.

I lol'd

Tyranids would be a good polar opposite to your mech'dar with their complete lack of any vehicles what-so-ever.

Nobody expects you to charge Necron Warriors and Destroyers into close combat! You can take all your opponents by surprise, and thats the most important key to winning!

kill dem stunties wrote:Well, i made a 2k pt fluffy mono khorne list and posted it a few days ago. Ya said you wouldn't mind a soul grinder, and its the only thing in the army that can shoot.

There's 8 total units, 5 of which number 8 models. Only things not @8 are the Bloodthirster, grinder and prince obviously.

BLOODFORTHEBLOODGOD!

Blood thirster /w unholy might & blessing of blood god 275

Skulltaker on a juggernaut 175
Herald of khorne on a juggernaut /w icon, blessing of blood god and unholy might 150

7x Blood crushers, fury of khorne instrument of chaos, chaos icon 320
8x blood crushers 320

7x blood letters, instrument 117
8x Blood letters, instrument 133
8x Blood letters, instrument 133

Daemon prince, flight, iron hide, unholy might, mark of khorne, blessing of the blood god. 215
Soul grinder /w phlegm (battlecannon shot) 160

herald goes with the letters #ing 7, skulltaker goes with the crushers that are 7

I posted a list in another thread -

Masque
Fiends
Fiends
Bloodcrushers
Bloodcrushers
Bloodletters
Bloodletters
Bloodletters
Daemon Prince
Daemon Prince

Sort of the general theme. It's just a list full of things that hit hard. Looks like fun, but it might not be very competetive.

I've seen a few nid players since their new codex came out, and they all run shooty nids. They also consider it ironic that the new codex turned the ultimate choppy army into an army that shoots better than it chops.

juicaj1 wrote:Sorry to burst your bubble man but a squad of 20 bloodletters for only 320 points gets 40 power weapon attacks when not charging, has furious charge, and has an invulnerable save and better overall stats except for bs. Also scores. I think daemons win. Also they look sick. and would be cheaper to actually buy with the money.

Well, let's look at the math here. For 325 points I can get a 51-dude power blob with a commissar and a total of 4 power weapons. Let's assume the bloodletters even get the charge in:

60 attacks puts down 20 guardsmen. The guardsmen put down 7 demons. In the guard player's turn, the demons put down 9 guardsmen, while the guardsmen put down 6 more.

The next turn starts with 7 demons against 21 guardsmen. The demons off another 5 guardsmen who kill another 5 demons. In the bottom half of the turn, the demons kill another guardsman and then are wiped.

So, comparing equal points of blob to bloodletters, even when the bloodletters get the charge in, the blodletters still get wiped and leave 15 angry guardsmen with 4 power weapons who won combat on your turn, so get to assault again.

Like I said, invincible guard units that always win combat in the end. even a 60-power-weapon-attack unit of carnage can't take it down.

Ailaros wrote:I've seen a few nid players since their new codex came out, and they all run shooty nids. They also consider it ironic that the new codex turned the ultimate choppy army into an army that shoots better than it chops.

juicaj1 wrote:Sorry to burst your bubble man but a squad of 20 bloodletters for only 320 points gets 40 power weapon attacks when not charging, has furious charge, and has an invulnerable save and better overall stats except for bs. Also scores. I think daemons win. Also they look sick. and would be cheaper to actually buy with the money.

Well, let's look at the math here. For 325 points I can get a 51-dude power blob with a commissar and a total of 4 power weapons. Let's assume the bloodletters even get the charge in:

60 attacks puts down 20 guardsmen. The guardsmen put down 7 demons. In the guard player's turn, the demons put down 9 guardsmen, while the guardsmen put down 6 more.

The next turn starts with 7 demons against 21 guardsmen. The demons off another 5 guardsmen who kill another 5 demons. In the bottom half of the turn, the demons kill another guardsman and then are wiped.

So, comparing equal points of blob to bloodletters, even when the bloodletters get the charge in, the blodletters still get wiped and leave 15 angry guardsmen with 4 power weapons who won combat on your turn, so get to assault again.

Like I said, invincible guard units that always win combat in the end. even a 60-power-weapon-attack unit of carnage can't take it down.

This is actually not an ideal matchup for IG, because your 75 points spend on power weapons are useless.

People diss Power Blob IG until they've had their Uber Assault Army tabled by them.

It's interesting to note how people feel about different armies. This is entirely off-topic, but personal bias will always change your decision. Any Human Based Army (SM, IG etc) was not even a considration for me. Even IF they are the best army for the job.

I just don't like playing humans in a "fantasy/scifi" world.

Also the scenario posted above about the Blob squad dealing with the Bloodletters is a selective scenario. I can produce scenarios where even Eldar units will kill bloodletters. It's not about the power-level or which is better, It's about what is good. And all the armies CAN be good at CC but some are just better at it. But I don't think that any of the armies other than the Deamons can actually post a competetive ALL cc list. No guns, just face-smashing.

eNvY wrote:

Ailaros wrote:I also agree that orks are pretty much as far away from eldar as you can get.

That said, the fact that only one person has mentioned the guard as a CC candidate is a tragedy. You get a 30-man squad that rerolls failed morale checks, always takes morale checks at an unmodified Ld9, and has 16 power weapon attacks on the charge, and 12 for every turn after that (which there will be many), all for 225 points. Oh, and it scores.

Seriously, you can easily field 3 invincible units that will almost never lose a close combat they enter, regardless of if they charged or not. Nobody else can do this.

Spread the word!

My 30 man platoon with attached commissar, accomplished all of the following feats in one battle against Daemons:

- Assaulted and butchered 6 flamers of tzeentch after losing 6 of their number to a breath of chaos attack.
- Next, they turned 'round and assaulted a bloodthirster on the very next turn, killing him in a single round of combat
- They then received a charge from a Keeper of Secrets, whom they destroyed in 2 turns. Our brave priest did not survive this encounter, RIP
- Lastly, the 10 or so remaining survivors assaulted a Tzeentch Daemon prince. He didn't make it out of that round of combat

This with completely average rolling. This is why I play 40k.

I'll put my 30 Hormagaunts up against them. Not unreasonable to expect the charge with how fast Hormagaunts are, so 90 attacks. They almost always have preferred enemy for me so assuming 4s to hit that's 75% hits after the rerolls for 67 hits rounded down.

I'll be nice though and stick with only one unit on one unit which would give me 50% hits with 1s getting a reroll, or 48 total hits again rounded down. I never leave home without toxin sacks, though I don't get adrenal glands. Assuming Toughness 3 I would have 4+ poison with reroll for another 75% giving 36 wounds. All of which is at initiative 5. So 36 armor saves later you get to go and this is all completely discounting the Preferred Enemy and Feel No Pain they always have on my table. Have fun with that.

phyrephly wrote:It's interesting to note how people feel about different armies. This is entirely off-topic, but personal bias will always change your decision. Any Human Based Army (SM, IG etc) was not even a considration for me. Even IF they are the best army for the job.

I just don't like playing humans in a "fantasy/scifi" world.

Also the scenario posted above about the Blob squad dealing with the Bloodletters is a selective scenario. I can produce scenarios where even Eldar units will kill bloodletters. It's not about the power-level or which is better, It's about what is good. And all the armies CAN be good at CC but some are just better at it. But I don't think that any of the armies other than the Deamons can actually post a competetive ALL cc list. No guns, just face-smashing.

My Orks say hi.

SumYungGui wrote:

eNvY wrote:

Ailaros wrote:I also agree that orks are pretty much as far away from eldar as you can get.

That said, the fact that only one person has mentioned the guard as a CC candidate is a tragedy. You get a 30-man squad that rerolls failed morale checks, always takes morale checks at an unmodified Ld9, and has 16 power weapon attacks on the charge, and 12 for every turn after that (which there will be many), all for 225 points. Oh, and it scores.

Seriously, you can easily field 3 invincible units that will almost never lose a close combat they enter, regardless of if they charged or not. Nobody else can do this.

Spread the word!

My 30 man platoon with attached commissar, accomplished all of the following feats in one battle against Daemons:

- Assaulted and butchered 6 flamers of tzeentch after losing 6 of their number to a breath of chaos attack.
- Next, they turned 'round and assaulted a bloodthirster on the very next turn, killing him in a single round of combat
- They then received a charge from a Keeper of Secrets, whom they destroyed in 2 turns. Our brave priest did not survive this encounter, RIP
- Lastly, the 10 or so remaining survivors assaulted a Tzeentch Daemon prince. He didn't make it out of that round of combat

This with completely average rolling. This is why I play 40k.

I'll put my 30 Hormagaunts up against them. Not unreasonable to expect the charge with how fast Hormagaunts are, so 90 attacks. They almost always have preferred enemy for me so assuming 4s to hit that's 75% hits after the rerolls for 67 hits rounded down.

I'll be nice though and stick with only one unit on one unit which would give me 50% hits with 1s getting a reroll, or 48 total hits again rounded down. I never leave home without toxin sacks, though I don't get adrenal glands. Assuming Toughness 3 I would have 4+ poison with reroll for another 75% giving 36 wounds. All of which is at initiative 5. So 36 armor saves later you get to go and this is all completely discounting the Preferred Enemy and Feel No Pain they always have on my table. Have fun with that.

Sure, if you get a fresh charge off against my infantry platoon out in the open they're in trouble. But I'm always going to be in cover negating your initiative, and before you get close I'll have dropped about 60 lasguns into their ranks, even from 24" thanks to Fire Rank Fire Second Rank Fire.

Target priority with CC guard is different. I don'f fear the big guys. They can munch 4-5 guardsmen a turn all they want, and without an invulnerable save they probably won't make it out of the first round of CC. Things like your hormagaunts are going to be my primary target.

More importantly, how much do 30 hormagaunts with all those upgrades cost?

As for "pure cc army", I've run just power blobs at 1000 points or below. I think there is technically some shooting as there are a few meltaguns, but it's nearly 100% choppy... for an imperial guard list...

Likewise, I'm pretty sure there are other armies out there that can win games without firing a shot, like khorne-based armies, blood angels, orks, nids, etc...

xxBlazinGhostxx wrote:

zeshin wrote:

xxBlazinGhostxx wrote:Thing with BT's righteous zeal move is that it can also lead you away from the nearest enemy.

IIRC, you move d6 towards the squad that shot at you and caused a casualty.

So if you are 12" to one squad and about to assault them with your BT next turn, the enemy could just cause a casualty and force you to run AWAY from the squad you were about to charge.

Also fearless bites a lot of people in arse when they lose in CC.

Toward the nearest enemy...unless your squad has a Chaplain, then they can choose which enemy they head toward.

Hmm, I was told it was towards whoever caused the casualty.

I have this codex and play Black Templars.

You move towards the closest enemy unit. Take power fists in case the closest enemy unit is a dreadnought.

Ailaros wrote:
Well, let's look at the math here. For 325 points I can get a 51-dude power blob with a commissar and a total of 4 power weapons. Let's assume the bloodletters even get the charge in:

60 attacks puts down 20 guardsmen. The guardsmen put down 7 demons. In the guard player's turn, the demons put down 9 guardsmen, while the guardsmen put down 6 more.

The next turn starts with 7 demons against 21 guardsmen. The demons off another 5 guardsmen who kill another 5 demons. In the bottom half of the turn, the demons kill another guardsman and then are wiped.

So, comparing equal points of blob to bloodletters, even when the bloodletters get the charge in, the blodletters still get wiped and leave 15 angry guardsmen with 4 power weapons who won combat on your turn, so get to assault again.

Like I said, invincible guard units that always win combat in the end. even a 60-power-weapon-attack unit of carnage can't take it down.

I have to butt in as your math is slightly off.

20 Bloodletters on the charge put down roughly 33 guardsmen, not 20 (s5 on the charge), these guardsmen will then put down roughly 4 bloodletters. Now it's 16 bloodletters vs. 18 guardsmen, with the daemons striking first, I wonder who'll win.

I'm not saying that powerblobs are bad (far from it, they can shot for example..), but in this case their chances isn't that great.

Well all what can defeat a large blob of imperial guardsman aside, I think the choice to go daemons is a good one. I too have recently started one. Just finished building my seekers last night. They're an interesting army people going against them for the first time get very surprised when half your army deepstrikes rather than being placed on the table edge. I'm not really a fan of just cc with them though especially since once you deepstrike you're a sitting duck. flamers, I love my flamers. Just 3 of them can wipe out a squad of terminators the turn they come on the board.

kronk wrote:

xxBlazinGhostxx wrote:

zeshin wrote:

xxBlazinGhostxx wrote:Thing with BT's righteous zeal move is that it can also lead you away from the nearest enemy.

IIRC, you move d6 towards the squad that shot at you and caused a casualty.

So if you are 12" to one squad and about to assault them with your BT next turn, the enemy could just cause a casualty and force you to run AWAY from the squad you were about to charge.

Also fearless bites a lot of people in arse when they lose in CC.

Toward the nearest enemy...unless your squad has a Chaplain, then they can choose which enemy they head toward.

Hmm, I was told it was towards whoever caused the casualty.

I have this codex and play Black Templars.

You move towards the closest enemy unit. Take power fists in case the closest enemy unit is a dreadnought.

Well then, I apologize.

xxBlazinGhostxx wrote:
Well then, I apologize.

Bah. No reason to.

Templars are still a fun close combat army. Probably not the best right now since their codex is outdated. Hopefully, we'll get on early next year.

I find BT interesting with the EC and the vows. Though then again, only one is worth taking. AAC just sounds awesome.

And I wished the conversion boxes weren't so expensive, I don't play BT, but so many bits that look so awesome....

Rather than start a new thread, I will re-hash this one. My wife has decided now that instead of Chaos Deamons she would prefer to paint and play CSM. Can anyone guide me to an effective Close Combat build for the CSM?

I would prefer the list to be competetive, since our playgroup is like that, but more CC focused. Please bear in mind that I have never even looked at Space Marines, at all! And I have only played against one SM army. This is the real reason I am asking, since I am not sure about how to build good CC.