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"This letter is to document your actual notice of your obligation..."

The idea here is to ensure that assuming the patent is issued, there will be records of sales for the BF folks to subpeona for patent or trademark infringement. Once those numbers are known, there are statutory penalties that can be assessed against an infringing company in a patent case (triple the profits plus attorney fees comes to mind). In a trademark case it helps demonstrate the degree of "confusion" which the trademark in question caused.

Like all TM/Copyright/Patent fights, the situation favors whoever can afford the most billable hours, but is far from certain.

RiTides wrote:
Edit: To Polonius' comment above, while that is a possibility, it seems Romeo is well aware of what is going on in these cases. The "witness" was someone associated with him... not his lawyer.

I was merely commenting on the letter sent to Sabol. Romeo would have to approve the filing of the action, or at least be aware of it.

Polonius wrote:

LucasLAD wrote:I'm really hoping that Romeo did this due to an ill advisement from a greedy legal team or an uninformed business development team.

A lawyer could send this sort of letter out without the client's knowledge. It's improper to assume that Romeo authorized it.

It is another great example of the highly suspect PR face Romeo puts on his business.

That's possible but highly unlikely, what kind of business owner doesn't know what his attorney is doing? Also, at this point Romeo DOES know about it and should be either recalling the C&D or blatently stating that it was a mistake and draw up a formal apology for not knowing what's happening in his company. At this point he looks MUCH more guilty than he possibly is.

Also if his attorney did send this out without making him aware I would recommend him looking for another attorney

BrookM wrote:

MDizzle wrote:Why dose anyone care?

We like good drama and the Foam Wars are highly amusing.

I personally enjoying watching a person with two amazing skill sets (production of product and sales) fail utterly and repeatedly at another (public relations). It warms my heart to see a person with amazing abilities assume that he can also do other things equally well, and then implode.

Now lets all take a second here and think about this. Guys Romeo has helped out a TON of tournys and events with his products for free. He is a all around good person, and I for one would like to hear his side of the story before a flame fest occurs. How about someone email him and ask him maybe to clarify a bit before we cast judgement.

LucasLAD wrote:

Polonius wrote:

LucasLAD wrote:I'm really hoping that Romeo did this due to an ill advisement from a greedy legal team or an uninformed business development team.

A lawyer could send this sort of letter out without the client's knowledge. It's improper to assume that Romeo authorized it.

It is another great example of the highly suspect PR face Romeo puts on his business.

That's possible but highly unlikely, what kind of business owner doesn't know what his attorney is doing? Also, at this point Romeo DOES know about it and should be either recalling the C&D or blatently stating that it was a mistake and draw up a formal apology for not knowing what's happening in his company. At this point he looks MUCH more guilty than he possibly is.

Also if his attorney did send this out without making him aware I would recommend him looking for another attorney

I once filed a counterclaim on behalf of a client without telling him. As a lawyer, I only need approval in a civil case to offer or accept a settlement. Every other aspect is up to me. it's possible that the firm in question is simply strongly advocating for their client, which is to say doing their job.

Now, if I were Romeo, I'd issue a statement apologizing for the letter, claiming it was sent to the wrong company or something.

۞ Jack ۞ wrote:

Romeo should realize that blanket legal actions like this will turn people away from his product, even despite the "any press is press" deal.

Yet with the endless C&C's GW sends out it doesent even dent thier proffit.
Dont want to start an argument, but thought it was a slightly valid point.
A few things like this dont really do much to a well established company.

I might disagree with this since GW has an extremely large offline user base. Most GW buyers most likely don't know or care about their C&D orders. I know I have only actually ever heard of one since I am mainly posting the P&M forums. Battlefoam however is a mainly online company ( I do not believe that they actually have real stores), and therefore a larger part of thier customer base will learn about the orders. Also, any hate against GW usually falls into the constant background noise of hate against GW, whereas Battlefoam has generally been positively viewed, and this may (or may not) change that view in many people, or at least a higher percentage of customers.


Polonius is right. This letter is not a c&d. This is an informative letter that gives battlefoam copyright priviliges before it actually has a patent. This letter was probably sent out to every foam company in one form or another. Essentially, if you start laser cutting foam, or are right now, you could be liable for copyright infringement even though there is no patent right now. The letter is just Battlefoam exercising its legal right and increasing its legal protection.

Romeo does create a great product. I'm in the process of switching from Sabol to Battle Foam. It's expensive and a slow process, but I do love the bags. He also seems like 'one of us' as a gamer and somebody who cares about the hobby. This type of behavior is always suspect, but I definitely wish him great luck with the company and look forward to dropping a ton more money his way.

The Internet isn't friendly and I'm sure the stuff he has done for the hobby gets overshadowed by these things without much thought. The Internet is a negative place. It's discouraging. Growing a business can't be easy and there are bound to be missteps like this one.

IP? But foam trays appear to predate your companies existence?

Since when was foam blocks with firm backing that are put in a simple bag copyrighted/patented? If is this the case I'm just gonna start trying to copyright the usage of backpacks.

Seriously, I can't foam a reason why this makes sense.

The copy of the judge's order from the first suit is priceless. That's about as close as he can legally come to declaring Battlefoam's owner a liar (manufacturing a witness) and dbag (filing in a completely inappropriate jurisdiction to make life difficult for the defendent) without actually coming out and saying it.

That's enough for me, I could care less about his motives in his letter to Sabol, he has proven his character with his earlier actions, and it's on the record.

I was actually on the Battlefoam site setting up a custom order for my Birthday when I read this. Not happening now.

Wow .. I suddenly have no interest in buying anything from Battlefoam now...

Even though it's a legal right (and perhaps even prudent business-wise), I generally frown upon strong arm tactics like this. Considering that this is such a small community, there has to have been a more friendly way to inform the other companies that Battlefoam is patenting laser cut foam for miniature storage.

Now I'll reconsider the Battlefoam purchases I was planning for November.

The letter had to do with the selling of Foam Corp. In no way does it say for Sabol to stop producing foam. I'm shocked once again that people have no reading comprehension, nor does co-owner of Sabol evidently.

Will it really impact sales? No, it has not hurt GW at all.

While companies have a right to try and make it in the good old USA, companies also have a right to protect themselves. This will all work it's way out. If Sabol hasn't done what they have been CDed for then it is on BF, but if they have done what has been stated they will be held responsible.

Ultimately people are going to nerd rage and say they will never buy BF when honestly they had no intention. BF in 2 years has surpassed what Sabol has done in 10. They had the vision to team up with PP, Malifaux, and so on. Sabol has continued to put out the same bags for 10 years. Oh wait the are adding 'Armor Plates" to their bags, but do we see BF making soft cases. It seems to me that BF is on the way up and Sabol is slowly dying on the vine.

P.S. It has to do with Outrider Hobbies and not Sabol....

Defending IP and a *PENDING* patent to a company that is not infringing smacks of exactly what the Judged warned them against.

You can not claim damages if there are none. The foam process at Sabol (a company that has been open longer than BF) is different (pluck vs. laser cut). Additionally, Sabol does not sale nor has any business relationship with Outrider. Additionally, Outrider has openly disavowed any sort of relationship with Sabol.

Did BF hire a lawyer straight out of ambulance chaser's school? What a waste of paper.

I have never seen Romeo claim to have a patent on foam trays.

What he has applied to patent is the METHOD he uses to create them. Production methods can be patented.

And for all the comments about how long foam trays have existed, look up paper clips.
There are at least 20 patents for forms and methods of creating paper clips.
It doesn't matter how unoriginal or common a thing may be, if the patent office awards the patent, you have it.

kinghammer wrote:Will it really impact sales? No, it has not hurt GW at all.

Are you implying that GW is secretly the owner of Battle Foam and that this is all one big conspiracy?

kinghammer wrote:The letter had to do with the selling of Foam Corp. In no way does it say for Sabol to stop producing foam. I'm shocked once again that people have no reading comprehension, nor does co-owner of Sabol evidently.

Will it really impact sales? No, it has not hurt GW at all.

While companies have a right to try and make it in the good old USA, companies also have a right to protect themselves. This will all work it's way out. If Sabol hasn't done what they have been CDed for then it is on BF, but if they have done what has been stated they will be held responsible.

Ultimately people are going to nerd rage and say they will never buy BF when honestly they had no intention. BF in 2 years has surpassed what Sabol has done in 10. They had the vision to team up with PP, Malifaux, and so on. Sabol has continued to put out the same bags for 10 years. Oh wait the are adding 'Armor Plates" to their bags, but do we see BF making soft cases. It seems to me that BF is on the way up and Sabol is slowly dying on the vine.

P.S. It has to do with Outrider Hobbies and not Sabol....

When writing a legal letter, you want to be clear, as a general rule. There are two reasons for legal writing to not be clear and easy to read: it's simply poorly written, or it's an attempt to encourage an improper reading.

If I were to have drafted the letter, assuming that BF simply wants to put all competitors on notice about their patent, I would have mentioned that this was merely informative, that any later decisions to sell laser cut foam can be actionable, etc.

If I were to have drafted a letter that was meant to scare or intimidate another company into thinking that they were going to get sued, I'd write somethign similar to what was posted.

So, either BF has a lawyer that can't write very well (likely), or was trying to say more than they legally could through muddy language (also likely).

I guess it depends whether you think lawyers aren't nearly as smart as they seem or that Romeo is simply a cold blooded businessman. Alas, I think both.

GW have worked with Sabol in the past. Remember those soft cases with the Aquila? Sabol (shame about the crappy eggshell foam though. Still, I didn't pay for mine!).

Oh man here we go again.

Its time to make laser cut foam in China.

BrookM wrote:

kinghammer wrote:Will it really impact sales? No, it has not hurt GW at all.

Are you implying that GW is secretly the owner of Battle Foam and that this is all one big conspiracy?

Could be that would be funny!

Polonius wrote:When writing a legal letter, you want to be clear, as a general rule. There are two reasons for legal writing to not be clear and easy to read: it's simply poorly written, or it's an attempt to encourage an improper reading.

If I were to have drafted the letter, assuming that BF simply wants to put all competitors on notice about their patent, I would have mentioned that this was merely informative, that any later decisions to sell laser cut foam can be actionable, etc.

If I were to have drafted a letter that was meant to scare or intimidate another company into thinking that they were going to get sued, I'd write somethign similar to what was posted.

So, either BF has a lawyer that can't write very well (likely), or was trying to say more than they legally could through muddy language (also likely).

I guess it depends whether you think lawyers aren't nearly as smart honest as they seem or that Romeo is simply a cold blooded unethical businessman.

Are you familiar with Groklaw?

Based on their legal actions Battlefoam (also Diablo Bats) seems to be very much akin to SCO, and the idea that the CEO doesn't know about pending litigation is pretty dubious.

If only GW could somehow become party to the suit and countersue like IBM did to SCO...

There is no law suit! Read the paper! BF is not suing over foam. It has to do with the biz relationship of Sabol and Outrider. In fact BF is helping Sabol by telling them to stop working with OH so they don't get in trouble in the future.

My Kingdom for some nerds that can read!

kinghammer wrote:There is no law suit! Read the paper! BF is not suing over foam. It has to do with the biz relationship of Sabol and Outrider. In fact BF is helping Sabol by telling them to stop working with OH so they don't get in trouble in the future.

My Kingdom for some nerds that can read!

Forgive my lack of legaleese. But why didn't the BF lawyer state it that way then?

Yeah, there is no pending lititagion here.

Look, when you hire a lawyer, usually it's because you can't or don't want to do something yourself. Either way, it's not unusual for a client to grant pretty broad powers (not coincidentally often called Power of Attorney) to their counsel.

Sending a letter like this probably shouldn't' appear on Romeo's radar. It's basic lawyering.

I think both side went a bit wobbly on this. Whatever Jack J Gilbert did actually invent and what he told his daughter he invented may be slightly different lists Considering that Ms Haynes challenges them to use Google is just a ludicrous thing for a company owner especially as patent offices don't use Google to catalogue items!

I do feel for her, as the absurdity of Battlefoam is outstanding, but the outburst that she has publiclly released is just daft. Bet she's awful to work for!

kinghammer wrote:There is no law suit! Read the paper! BF is not suing over foam. It has to do with the biz relationship of Sabol and Outrider. In fact BF is helping Sabol by telling them to stop working with OH so they don't get in trouble in the future.

My Kingdom for some nerds that can read!

Even when both parties state there is no business relationship?

Actually, I think this is more along the lines of a poorly worded letter sent to all foam manufacturers in the case that Outrider attempts to do business with them.

Even in that case, since the original lawsuit was thrown out, Outrider should be allowed to conduct business if/until there's an appeal.

pombe wrote:

kinghammer wrote:There is no law suit! Read the paper! BF is not suing over foam. It has to do with the biz relationship of Sabol and Outrider. In fact BF is helping Sabol by telling them to stop working with OH so they don't get in trouble in the future.

My Kingdom for some nerds that can read!

Forgive my lack of legaleese. But why didn't the BF lawyer state it that way then?

Allow me to repeat myself:

When writing a legal letter, you want to be clear, as a general rule. There are two reasons for legal writing to not be clear and easy to read: it's simply poorly written, or it's an attempt to encourage an improper reading.

If I were to have drafted the letter, assuming that BF simply wants to put all competitors on notice about their patent, I would have mentioned that this was merely informative, that any later decisions to sell laser cut foam can be actionable, etc.

If I were to have drafted a letter that was meant to scare or intimidate another company into thinking that they were going to get sued, I'd write somethign similar to what was posted.

So, either BF has a lawyer that can't write very well (likely), or was trying to say more than they legally could through muddy language (also likely).

I guess it depends whether you think lawyers aren't nearly as smart honest as they seem or that Romeo is simply a cold blooded businessman.

In short, either it was written in five minutes by a law clerk and then signed by the lawyer and thus zero though went into it, the lawyer in question can't write particularly well, or it's an effort to imply more than they can state. We don't' know which it is though. We all have our gut feelings based on previous events, but we don't know.

kinghammer wrote:The letter had to do with the selling of Foam Corp. In no way does it say for Sabol to stop producing foam. I'm shocked once again that people have no reading comprehension, nor does co-owner of Sabol evidently.

Thanks kinghammer, I thought I was the only one that noticed that.

agnosto wrote:Defending IP and a *PENDING* patent to a company that is not infringing smacks of exactly what the Judged warned them against.

You can not claim damages if there are none. The foam process at Sabol (a company that has been open longer than BF) is different (pluck vs. laser cut). Additionally, Sabol does not sale nor has any business relationship with Outrider. Additionally, Outrider has openly disavowed any sort of relationship with Sabol.

See this:

http://www.saboldesigns.net/catalog/item/4831262/7600947.htm

Sabol pre-cut foam that is not pluck. Could the letter be talking about this?