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Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut





New Jersey, USA

Even if all things where equal, A Jedi is still a human, where as the Librarian is genetically enchanced to be a warrior.


 
   
Made in gb
Raging Ravener






Now I normally tend to avoid these sort of discussions, but this one has come up a few times and I'm just wanting to throw my ideas out here for once.

Firstly I'll start off by saying this is essentially impossible to call, since different sources portray wildly different levels of ability and power from both Star Wars and 40K. Take episodes 1-3 for example, Jedi masters get gunned down like headless chickens on more than a few occasions, but in Force Unleashed, Starkiller is a godlike death-machine chewing through an entire army of soldiers, droids and armoured vehicles.

Again in 40K, the fluff says Mephiston when still a normal Marine survived a hopeless battle against the Orks, survived a building collapsing on him and then after days of this, burst from the rubble and dismantled a bunch of other Orks without his armour and using his bare hands. Conversely, the Dawn of War 2 intro video shows a Marine getting insta-killed by a shuriken pistol.

Which portrayals are more accurate?

Assuming we stick with only original sources i.e. The Star Wars films and 40K codex, I'd say the Librarian has a massive edge: Much stronger, as fast-if not faster-than the Jedi/Sith, and much more likely to survive any injury caused while still remaining combat effective.

Oh and as for the comment about the Jedi "Mind controlling the Librarian", you do realise that only works on the feeble minded right? I'm not sure a Librarian falls into that particular category if I'm honest...

If brute force isn't the answer, it's only because you aren't using enough of it. 
   
Made in us
Stalwart Veteran Guard Sergeant



Terra, circa M2

Dear people who assume a glancing blow woth a force weapon instantly and automaticaly rends the living soul from the target,

Please remember that in-game, a psyker must pass a Psykic Test for the force weapon to insta-kill. Fluff-wise, the psyker must focus his power, not an easy thing at the best of times, but quite possibly more difficult in CC.
Yes, I know the Librarians have really good Ld. Still, there are always s.
Personaly, I would find fighting a psykic ninja with a power sword quite difficult, and my concentration could certainly slip.

Thank you,
Me

Though my soul may set in darkness
It will rise in perfect light!
I have loved the stars too fondly
to be fearful of the night.
?  
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut






Louisville, KY

The Jedi and Librarian prepare for single combat.

Then it turns out the Librarian's force sword is actually Odo.

Odo shapeshifts back and gives the Librarian a stern look.

Garak shoots the Jedi in the back with a phaser.

Everyone goes home happy.

DQ:80+S+++G++M+B+I+Pw40k10#+D++A++/areWD-R+++T(D)DM+ 
   
Made in hr
Screaming Shining Spear






I think what SaintHazard is trying to tell us is that Star Trek owns all.

And at the end of the day, a Librarian whisked to the Galaxy Far, Far Away exactly as he is in 40k, would be just a big brute with a chip on his shoulder. Same way if a Jedi was transported to 40k space, he'd soon find he's barely more than a guardsman with peerless medtation skills, the lot of good that would bring him.

If we are to bring the Jedi into the 40k, we'd have to assume they'd also have some form of psychic power denial/protection. And we have no clue what the powers would actually do in 40k. Because the way I see it, the reason why psykers are so strong in this universe is that they meddle with terrible power at ultimate personal risk: their souls. A Jedi is perfectly safe while using Force, except that the more passionate ones usually fall prey to their own ego. I'd still say the risk is marginal when compared to Librarians. So universe to universe, Librarians are more potent. If a Jedi was a psyker of 40k, I'm not sure that would be true.

Also, close combat is pretty self-explanatory. In gameplay terms, if a Jedi charged the Librarian(more likely as they'd certainly be Fleet) he'd either kill the Libro in their first set of attacks, or would be stomped under power armor foot. I see a combat oriented Jedi as a Harlequin(Same general stats, Fleet of foot, ignore difficult terrain, 5+ inv with no armor save) with a witchblade that ignores armor saves. Librarian with a SS would probably eat that Jedi for breakfast.
   
Made in gb
Stealthy Space Wolves Scout






I think the powers are irrelevant really, as both are depicted as equally powerful in their respective Universes, however a Jedi's reactions are from the force so I reckon its more likely for the Superhuman Librarian to outlast and eventually outfight his opponent. But I like the idea of Star Trek hijacking the whole scene

Emperor's Faithful wrote
- I would rather the Blood Angels have gone down the darker path of the Flesh Tearers than this new "Awesome Codex McBatnipples". *blegh*

6 Marine Armies and counting... Why do I do it to myself ? Someone help me I'm an addict  
   
Made in se
Wicked Warp Spider






Ios

These discussions are ever so interesting.

Who'd win? Barack Obama or Ghengis Khan? Tanner Mirabel or Harry Dresden?

It's taking the two out of context or putting them in a context that is entirely favourable to one or the other. In case or Mr Obama, he isn't a fighter but the leader of arguably the most powerful nation in the world currently. In case of Harry Dresden it's assuming magic even work at all in the setting or that he's had the time to prepare. In the case of the Spess Mahreen, it is assuming that the setting in which we put them his mind won't be wide open to Jedi influence and for the Jedi that the underlying workings of the force even gives him the constant subconscious knowledge he need. Besides, a Jedi is much more a politician and spiritual leader whereas the Spess Mahreen is a dumb grunt (it's all relative) with excessive access to warp energies.

Who'd win? Jedi in Jedi universe, Libby in 40k universe. In a neutral universe? There's no such thing. They are defined from their surroundings, and putting them outside their area of definition makes them mean nothing.

But for the sake of it, I'd vote the Librarian. Why? 'cause this is a 40K forum with a Spess Mahreen dense population. Entities from other settings do not stand a chance.

I really need to stay away from the 40K forums. 
   
Made in gb
Lord of the Fleet






London

I've just realised that I haven't actually provided any input, yet I started the discussion. My money would be on the Librarian, as apart from being physically stronger and tougher than the Jedi, their powers are much better than any Jedi power I've seen.

"Oh wow, you can summon lightning"
*bounces off Storm Shield*
*Libby summons a black hole and sucks Jedi to oblivion*

   
Made in us
Stone Bonkers Fabricator General






A garden grove on Citadel Station

Monster Rain wrote:1. Based on what, exactly?
2. Blood clotting is irrelevant, as the Lightsaber would cauterize the wound. Just saying
3. Really, do you need to be that nasty?

Also, some Jedi live for centuries as well. Yoda is quite vocal on the subject.
Based on the fact that the only thing that jedi ever slash though are droids or people. They never slash through a thick armor column or blast door, it takes them significant time and pressing. Marine power armor would at least be able to deflect a glancing blow, which a librarian would be expert at considering he is physically faster, more powerful, and more trained and experienced in hand to hand combat.
You are right that blood clotting is irrelevant, it's just a part of the laundry list of immunities and defense.
Nasty? He suggested that a Jedi would be as skilled as the reincarnating, 10s of thousands of year old, literally pinnacle of martial achievement, physically and genetically more combat capable, eldar phoenix lords. And significantly faster, such that a jedi would make a phoenix lord seem sluggish by comparison. If that isn't completely off the rocker, I don't know what is.

Yoda lives for hundreds of years, sure, but physically he is extremely feeble. Even with his force enhancement, he is only "significantly fast and skilled" for a human/jedi. A physically weak person with force acrobatics and enhancements compared to a top-shape human who is then physically improved and then improved with armor and then improved again with quickening warp powers, is not as impressive. He additionally does not spend every waking moment training.

Araenion wrote:First of all, drop the "ad homined", pal. If you can't have a discussion without resorting to personal snipes, forums are no place for you. Furthermore, this is a lighthearted(I presume, I honestly can't see it as anything different) debate about two different fictional universes. All you will ever get around here are opinions, not facts in any way, shape or form.
It's a joke. I'm suggesting that you are heavily biased towards SW. No offense to your personal character meant by that. If you can't take a lighthearted jab, then well, take your own advice. In any case, my points still stand, unless you want to just lock onto my joke as an unwillingness to actually discuss and ignore everything else I said.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Mahtamori wrote:Who'd win? Jedi in Jedi universe, Libby in 40k universe. In a neutral universe? There's no such thing. They are defined from their surroundings, and putting them outside their area of definition makes them mean nothing.

But for the sake of it, I'd vote the Librarian. Why? 'cause this is a 40K forum with a Spess Mahreen dense population. Entities from other settings do not stand a chance.
In SW only universe, Jedi wins due to librarian having no warp powers, but the librarian would still be able to at least put up a fight with his physical prowess and armor. He is definitely up there alongside the SW universe things that are non-force capable yet still dangerous to jedi.

In a 40k universe setting, the Librarian wins in a landslide as a Jedi has almost no close combat skill or power without the force.

In a neutral setting, I think that it still goes to the librarian given that he has such better physical powers. Unless we assume that Force powers are significantly more powerful than Psyker powers, the Librarian just flat out wins due to more training, experience, and raw physical power and toughness.

Jedi are not primarily warriors, they do not have advanced defensive and offensive technology, and they don't train as intensively as Marines. It's just not a fair fight at all.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2010/09/17 22:16:37


ph34r's Forgeworld Phobos blog, current WIP: Iron Warriors and Skaven Tau
+From Iron Cometh Strength+ +From Strength Cometh Will+ +From Will Cometh Faith+ +From Faith Cometh Honor+ +From Honor Cometh Iron+
The Polito form is dead, insect. Are you afraid? What is it you fear? The end of your trivial existence?
When the history of my glory is written, your species shall only be a footnote to my magnificence.
 
   
Made in hr
Screaming Shining Spear






ph34r wrote:Nasty? He suggested that a Jedi would be as skilled as the reincarnating, 10s of thousands of year old, literally pinnacle of martial achievement, physically and genetically more combat capable, eldar phoenix lords. And significantly faster, such that a jedi would make a phoenix lord seem sluggish by comparison. If that isn't completely off the rocker, I don't know what is.


In *their* universe, Jedi literally are pinnacles of martial achievement, physically and mentally capable of wonderous things. And it wasn't really my point, my point was that they'd be faster than Librarians and strike first in melee. Do you disagree with that?

Oh and also, if I'm off the rocker, then so is GW. I'm not the one that raises every Space Marine HQ WS and BS with every new codex. Used to be WS5 was the norm(so I've heard), now a plain Ultramarine Captain has the same WS as a thousand-years old Eldar general. So take it up with them.

ph34r wrote:Yoda lives for hundreds of years, sure, but physically he is extremely feeble. Even with his force enhancement, he is only "significantly fast and skilled" for a human/jedi. A physically weak person with force acrobatics and enhancements compared to a top-shape human who is then physically improved and then improved with armor and then improved again with quickening warp powers, is not as impressive. He additionally does not spend every waking moment training.


Meditating is training for Jedi, because the stronger their connection to the Force, the stronger, faster and spiritually attuned they become. Star Wars universe is much more about the superiority of the immaterial than 40k is, demons coming out of some twisted, spirit-infested Hell-like plane notwithstanding. Hence the comparison is inherently out of place.

ph34r wrote:It's a joke. I'm suggesting that you are heavily biased towards SW. No offense to your personal character meant by that. If you can't take a lighthearted jab, then well, take your own advice. In any case, my points still stand, unless you want to just lock onto my joke as an unwillingness to actually discuss and ignore everything else I said.


Alright then, I didn't get the joking feel out of it, but let's chalk it up to the language barrier, shake hands and all that. As for my counter-argument, sure, I'm up for it.

ph34r wrote:In a neutral setting, I think that it still goes to the librarian given that he has such better physical powers. Unless we assume that Force powers are significantly more powerful than Psyker powers, the Librarian just flat out wins due to more training, experience, and raw physical power and toughness.


There can be no neutral setting between two "magic" styles. You can compare the physical prowess of Space Marine and Mech Warrior Clan warrior for instance, or plasma-wielding awesomeness of Zeratul or Mace Windu, but as soon as you delve into the surreal, you must make consessions. So either the Librarians crosses over or the Jedi does. For this argument, because this is a 40k forum, I'm assuming a Jedi would be the one crossing over. And I'm not sure what kind of potency their powers would then have, when they come at a signifactly greater personal risk than in their native setting. My guess is - stronger.

ph34r wrote:Jedi are not primarily warriors, they do not have advanced defensive and offensive technology, and they don't train as intensively as Marines. It's just not a fair fight at all.


I'm biased here. In Kotor games, I was always Jedi Guardian/Weapon Master. Force really wasn't interesting to me as much as the lightsaber melee. And the things that a combat-oriented Jedi Master can do when the force augments his body is something I doubt even a Phoenix Lord(and I'm biased toward PLs, I absolutely love Eldar lore) could pull off. Relative to their setting, in all seriousness.

My point is, I can give the Jedi S, T, WS and I all of 10 and I'd be no more right or wrong than you. Because they're from entirely different settings and all we can do is speculate based on our perspectives on the two. Keep that in mind before you decide someone is so unrighteously insane as to give a fictional character from a fictional place a higher skill swinging their fictional piece of wargear than you think they should have.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2010/09/18 01:43:48


 
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut





Wishing I was back at the South Atlantic, closer to ice than the sun

ph34r wrote:In a 40k universe setting, the Librarian wins in a landslide as a Jedi has almost no close combat skill or power without the force.


And with that I would disagree as has been shown in both rules and books the PH does not nullify passive powers. So a Jedis' enhancements wouldn't be affected.

Cheers

Andrew


I don't care what the flag says, I'm SCOTTISH!!!

Best definition of the word Battleship?
Mr Nobody wrote:
Does a canoe with a machine gun count?
 
   
Made in us
Stone Bonkers Fabricator General






A garden grove on Citadel Station

1. Sure, but Jedi are just really good humans with powers. It stands to reason that better-than-humans with better powers, would be better.
And like hell a Jedi would strike first. A jedi is a human with force powers to quicken him. A Librarian is a top physical condition human, who is further enhanced, who is then given armor to make him faster still, who then uses powers to make him faster. Faster than a Jedi.
WS used to be all over the place, then 3rd edition made everything super bland, and now they are going back to representing their stats with more of the scale.
An ultramarine captain probably has nearly the same expertise in close combat as an eldar general, he has many advantages. The point here is both can beat the crap out of a jedi.

2. So if meditating is so important, why don't the Jedi have stronger powers? Many 40k powers far outstrip those of SW. The comparison is perfectly valid. If I am 100x physically stronger than you, and match your powers with my own, who will win? Me.

3. Yes, yes there can. Example: Both The Force and Psyker Powers exist. Bam. Neutral setting achieved. There is no reason that one can't say they both work.

4. An eldar could have the same combat style as a Jedi. However an Eldar would likely have significantly more experience, and the Eldar still have problems beating the Marines.

If you gave the Jedi 40k stats that were completely unfounded you would very much be more wrong than me. Just because they exist in two different settings, doesn't mean that we can't compare what they can do. You don't see me saying "you can't say which is stronger, the deathstar or a last pistol!" That argument makes no sense, right? It's just an exaggerated version of yours. Of course you can compare them.


@AndrewC by 40k universe setting I mean a "force doesn't exist" setting such as proposed as being one of the only two possibilities by the "no neutral universe" camp.

ph34r's Forgeworld Phobos blog, current WIP: Iron Warriors and Skaven Tau
+From Iron Cometh Strength+ +From Strength Cometh Will+ +From Will Cometh Faith+ +From Faith Cometh Honor+ +From Honor Cometh Iron+
The Polito form is dead, insect. Are you afraid? What is it you fear? The end of your trivial existence?
When the history of my glory is written, your species shall only be a footnote to my magnificence.
 
   
Made in gb
Member of the Malleus





A fuedal world on the fringes of Segmentum Tempestus

Im bored with the whole 40k vs X senario now. It was good at first, but haven't we thought of every possible tangent by now?

A spiritu dominatus,
Domine, libra nos,
From the lighting and the tempest,
Our Emperor, deliver us.
 
   
Made in hr
Screaming Shining Spear






1. That's why a Librarian has Initiative 4, right? Because they're super fast? They're fast for humans and faster than lumbering Orks. They're certainly a good average among 40k races. It's physically impossible to move fast in that sort of armor even if it were made of cardboard. Simply because it's too large. Space Marines are genetically engineered killing machines, but a tyrannid is exactly that as well, only much faster because it has only its natural carapace to hold it back. That's why tyrannid carapace is 5/6+ while power armor is 3+. To represent the penalty of movement that comes at stronger protection. You simply can't have both, except in extremely rare cases like Phoenix Lords. But their armor is magical itself.

2. I already said why I believe this is true. Because in 40k universe, "magicians" dabble their souls to gain that power. Essentially, they make deals with the devil but pull out right before the signing. Except that sometimes they don't, so they end up breakfast for daemons. Jedi are more akin to Budhists. Delving into themselves to shape the inner power that is within all beings. Star Wars is a much more realistic setting(if you go by the original sources, the movies) even with all those cool stunt moves everyone pulls off. The magic there is usually very subtle, because it's natural. In 40k, magic is wild and chaotic, daemonic. Librarians, Farseers, Sorcerers, etc, act as a conduit to the source of that power, the Warp. It does not come from them, it comes through them. Saying that, a Jedi actually has much more innate power than a Librarian.

3. No, they cannot. Because both of those "sources" are divine in nature. When a living thing dies, it returns to the Force, its essence living forever. Except that it doesn't, it actually gets whisked away to the chaos of the Warp. These two forces can never co-exist, because they're polar opposites serving the same supposedly "neutral" purpose. There is no Heaven or Hell. There is only the Force. Or the Warp. See what I mean?

4. Force is not some superficial thing that comes and goes. It's the individual potential maxed. It's just a part of the Jedi as blood is to a normal living thing. And they can use it anytime, anywhere. To defy gravity, to crush people's veins from distance, or burn them in displays of pure energy. No Perils of the Force test needed to see if a daemonic entity will eat your soul. Eldar have experience, Space Marines have genetic engineering, Jedi have the Force. All the time. Even in their sleep. Even in the crapper. And that Space Marine can't lift a freight train to the air, can it now? Lot of good would his awesome armor do, when he can be crush-fitted into a nicely sized chocolate box together with it. And even without any armor, any weapons, a Jedi would still have his Force. So no, I doubt that hand-on-hand brawl would end well for the Marine.

Did you ever hear of that woman who saw her kid getting trapped beneath a car, lifting it with her bare hands? Of course her bones snapped thereafter, but she did it. Even a normal real-world person can do amazing things when they are determined. Jedi have that determination 24/7.

Unfounded? Says who? You? Well, you're certainly free to think so.

If you want to compare, try putting them in the same context first, because outside of that, it simply won't work. And to be honest, if something as awe-inspiring as a Jedi would be included into 40k, it'd certainly be more in line with the significance of the Phoenix Lords, than just your run-of-the-mill Space Marine Librarian. Even if it is a Chief Librarian, he'd still be just a G-mod human in a world of mighty star-races. A Jedi is a prenominal figure in the Galaxy Far, Far away, regardless of their race. You can bet he'd be an important factor in 40k as well.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2010/09/18 04:30:27


 
   
Made in au
Stubborn Dark Angels Veteran Sergeant




Behind you

Grey knight librarian would dominate the jedi knight...

you didn't say which chapter!
Grey knight has the aegis suit, which would nullify any force powers trying to get at the librarian. The Halabard would probably be light-sabre resistant (remembering that these parry deamon weapons of massive power).

Jedi knight would probably last approximately an hour or so before they slowed and died. (as shown in ROTS and clone wars) Space marine would keep on powering.

 
   
Made in au
Dakka Veteran




Brisbane, OZ

Assuming the lightsabre is a las weapon and he only has Lash of Submission and a psychic shooting attack (i'll be generous and say it's an assault weapon), with no armor?

I'm gonna have to back the librarian in this one.

Son can you play me a memory? I'm not really sure how it goes... 
   
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A garden grove on Citadel Station

1. Marine stats in the game undersell their strength greatly for the purpose of gameplay. Read a book, or the rulebook, or a codex. Marines are explicitly stated as not being slowed down by their armor, due to black carapace.

2. No, they don't. It's just slightly risky to use 40k powers, much like a plasma gun is slightly risky to shoot. You don't see anyone saying "waah, you can't say plasma guns are stronger than blasters! they are dangerous!"
And I don't care how much "innate power" or awesome meditation a Jedi has. It's a simple check: Are Jedi Powers Generally Stronger Than Librarian Powers? Answer: no. The end.

3. No. You are being intentionally dense. You don't have to say that the Force and the Warp coexist in a meaningful way in a persistent universe that makes internal sense. All you have to say is "both psykers and jedi powers work" and you can have a competition. Except oh wait, you don't want the competition to be valid, because you realize that I am right and you want to invalidate the entire argument. Cool.

4. lollll no. In the movies, the greatest Jedi around still defeat mundane opponents with effort. Average Jedi are killed by average troopers. Each Jedi is clearly not depicted as a 100% effort, lifting cars, punching through walls, snatching your gun out of your hand faster than you can blink, badass. Like, not even close. Where do the Jedi just prance along the front lines, mentally compacting Seperatist assault vehicles into tiny boxes? I must have missed that part, but I did see a whole lot of them charging forwards and using their light saber. But then again I've watched the movies. Have you? From your posts it does not seem like you have..?

A Jedi gets into hand to hand combat with a librarian. What happens? The Jedi uses the force, the Librarian uses quickening. They are the same thing in effect. The librarian additionally has top-human build, plus genetic enhancements, plus armor. It's really simple. I honestly 100% no troll don't understand how you don't understand this.

Jedi are not "super awe inspiring oh my god they are better than the superior-to-human-ancient-psychic-space-elf-god-of-war". They are an order of dudes with powers. There are thousands of them. They are trained for a few years, and then they train themselves for a few decades, and then they die.

The thought that a Jedi is more significant than a Phoenix Lord is mind bogglingly stupid and I don't even know how to approach understanding it.

ph34r's Forgeworld Phobos blog, current WIP: Iron Warriors and Skaven Tau
+From Iron Cometh Strength+ +From Strength Cometh Will+ +From Will Cometh Faith+ +From Faith Cometh Honor+ +From Honor Cometh Iron+
The Polito form is dead, insect. Are you afraid? What is it you fear? The end of your trivial existence?
When the history of my glory is written, your species shall only be a footnote to my magnificence.
 
   
Made in us
Consigned to the Grim Darkness





USA

... why a Chief Librarian? It's not as if Librarians are necessarily any more powerful than human psykers. Indeed, a Primaris Psykers in the fluff can actually become far more powerful than the Librarian you see on tabletop, doing such things as stopping time, banishing daemons with a single word, creating flames so hot that it burns the soul as well as the body, inspiring entire armies to greater glory, creating army-sized storms of psychic fire/lightning, boiling a person's blood in their body with a thought, and so on.

And they're better protected from the perils of the warp than Librarians, to boot. Jedi don't stand a chance in hell.

Dark Heresy: Ascension, baby. Mm.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2010/09/18 22:36:33


The people in the past who convinced themselves to do unspeakable things were no less human than you or I. They made their decisions; the only thing that prevents history from repeating itself is making different ones.
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Made in us
[DCM]
.







Why not a Chief Librarian?

Librarians are a better analogue to Jedi (warrior-monks) than anything else in the 40K galaxy.

Though really, trying to compare two fictional universe as disparate as 40K and Star Wars is probably doomed to fail...
   
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Consigned to the Grim Darkness





USA

Not really. As noted above, jedi are still human... well, equivalent to human anyway, as while many of them are xeno they still die roughly as easily as a human (with the exception of a few abiltiies like holding their breath and etc). So a human opponent is more equivalent, yes?

The people in the past who convinced themselves to do unspeakable things were no less human than you or I. They made their decisions; the only thing that prevents history from repeating itself is making different ones.
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My blog
 
   
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[DCM]
.







No?

For the reasons already stated?

And since not all Jedi are human... huh?

nickmund wrote:Im bored with the whole 40k vs X senario now. It was good at first, but haven't we thought of every possible tangent by now?


Apparently not, even though these never end well, do they?

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2010/09/18 22:55:17


 
   
Made in us
Consigned to the Grim Darkness





USA

Alpharius wrote:And since not all Jedi are human...
... ahem. Put in bold because you apparently missed it.
Melissia wrote:Not really. As noted above, jedi are still human... well, equivalent to human anyway, as while many of them are xeno they still die roughly as easily as a human (with the exception of a few abiltiies like holding their breath and etc). So a human opponent is more equivalent, yes?


The source for this is, if you need one, the D20 Star Wars game. The various races that can become a Jedi are still all humanlike in endurance, strength, durability, and so on, with only slight variations-- in 40k, all of them would be classified as T3.

The people in the past who convinced themselves to do unspeakable things were no less human than you or I. They made their decisions; the only thing that prevents history from repeating itself is making different ones.
-- Adam Serwer
My blog
 
   
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Pedantry FTW!
   
Made in se
Wicked Warp Spider






Ios

The point is, this is the grim dark, EMO, future. It cuts itself regularly just to see what colour of blood comes out this time. Obviously, if you pitch anyone from a more mentally balanced alternate reality into this one, that person will die horribly.
I mean, even the elves in this universe has stopped picking flowers and started worshipping a war god, think a human skull is a laughing matter, and call an entire race "Must Be Slain". And those are the "good" elves.
Melissia wrote:
Alpharius wrote:And since not all Jedi are human...
... ahem. Put in bold because you apparently missed it.
Melissia wrote:Not really. As noted above, jedi are still human... well, equivalent to human anyway, as while many of them are xeno they still die roughly as easily as a human (with the exception of a few abiltiies like holding their breath and etc). So a human opponent is more equivalent, yes?


The source for this is, if you need one, the D20 Star Wars game. The various races that can become a Jedi are still all humanlike in endurance, strength, durability, and so on, with only slight variations-- in 40k, all of them would be classified as T3.

As a minor note, a Space Marine in a D20 setting wouldn't be a whole lot different from an Orc in Dragonlance setting. D20 has a marvellous way of having all medium-sized creatures merely 2 stat points apart with equal drawbacks as benefits - unless they're supernatural (such as angels or demons).

I really need to stay away from the 40K forums. 
   
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Consigned to the Grim Darkness





USA

Touche I suppose. D20 is an inherently clunky system (but then, so is D6...).

Still, the aliens that commonly become Jedi are very much humanlike in ability.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2010/09/18 23:16:51


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Melissia wrote:Touche I suppose. D20 is an inherently clunky system (but then, so is D6...).

Still, the aliens that commonly become Jedi are very much humanlike in ability.

Oh, I'm fairly certain the Jedi will die in a straight up fight - just as I'm fairly certain the Librarian will fall to the old Jedi mind trick /wavehand "I am the emperaaah"

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Unless the Librarian did it first.

Oh wait, I think a Librarian can probably just dominate the Jedi's mind instead and control them that way... even non-Primaris human psykers can do that.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2010/09/18 23:36:01


The people in the past who convinced themselves to do unspeakable things were no less human than you or I. They made their decisions; the only thing that prevents history from repeating itself is making different ones.
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But so can Jedi. In fact, it's one of the only Jedi powers actually shown in episodes 4-6, beyond swinging lightsabers and lifting X-wings.

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Err, no, I don't recall reading about a Jedi power that could force a strong-willed opponent to stab his sword into his throat...

... but a Sith certainly could. Many "Dark Side" powers are somewhat more effective than "Light Side" powers (Force Persuasion isn't as powerful as Mind Control in this instance), though the reverse of that is also true.

The people in the past who convinced themselves to do unspeakable things were no less human than you or I. They made their decisions; the only thing that prevents history from repeating itself is making different ones.
-- Adam Serwer
My blog
 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut






Louisville, KY

Fair enough.

Though I'm almost certain there's been at least one instance of what you just described in the Expanded Universe. Not that that'd be canon. Just sayin'.

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