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The question was whether a Jedi or Sith Master could beat a Chief Librarian.

A Chief Librarian is the senior most Librarian in a chapter. This doesn't tell us much about his power. The Chief Librarian of the Novamarines might be weaker than a lot of the regular Librarians in the Ultramarines, for example.

Jedi don't like fighting. If they could they'd only ever use the Force to heal people and knit daisy chains. They usually award the title of Master to Jedi Knights who have successfully trained Padawan, which has nothing to do with combat. There are many Jedi Masters who haven't ever fought in a battle. There are Force powers that do nothing but make plants grow (seriously). To quote Skywalker;

"Remember, a Jedi fights only as a last resort. If you are forced to draw your lightsaber, you have already forfeited much of your advantage."

Sith? This guy isn't even a Sith Master. He's an apprentice. If you're at work and can't watch that video, he uses the Force to pull a Star Destroyer out of the sky while defending against multiple waves of Tie Fighters. And yes, Force Unleashed is canon.

Of course, there are only 2 or 3 Sith around during the time of the films, but the OP didn't make any caveats for that. He also didn't specify a time frame (there were plenty of Sith during the Old Republic).



I'd say a Jedi Master loses to a Chief Librarian, probably gladly. A Jedi Master would rather lose and die than resort to using the Force in the way necessary to take a Librarian down. See; Obi-wan vs Vader.

The Sith Master would turn the Librarian into an exceptionally small metal raisin. Then blow up the Battle Barge he flew in on for laughs.

Monster Rain wrote:On what are you basing this adamant assertion that a Lightsaber is the equivalent of a Power Sword?

Eisenhorn?

Yep, Eisenhorn's got a power sword whose blade is basically energy.

Monster Rain wrote:On what are you basing this adamant assertion that a Lightsaber is the equivalent of a Power Sword?

Every single description of power weapons... ever?

The very fact that there is a power weapon which is literally just a sword handle that creates a sword of energy-- and in fact multiple variants of this weapon (Eisenhorn has one variant, and there's another in Dark Heresy)-- makes the comparison quite obvious.

I can't believe I actually read this thread!!!


BTW Librarian for the win!!!

Oh yea, OT. . . .

1) Human with power + CCW.
2) Super-human with powers + bolter + CCW + armor.

1) Specializes in non-violence but has amazing combat prowess.
2) Specializes in violence. Trains in violence. Prays and Meditates in violence!

My vote is for 2. Space Marines can also have a hood which leads to the classic scene:

Jedi: "I will use the Force to blast you from the universe!"

Librarian: "Shhhh."
. . .

Come on, who DOESN'T picture librarians shushing people!

Index85 wrote:I'm going to have to say that a Master Jedi could take out a chief librarian easily. In the short 15 minute long cartoons on Cartoon Network. Mace Windu takes out an entire army droids with a giant vehicle by himself and Yoda Brings down a couple of battle cruisers with just his mind. I don't think a Librarian would be able to take out an entire army on his own.

Unfortunately, I think that Star Wars: Clone Wars (the Cartoon Network version) isn't official cannon, though I could be wrong.

I'd love to be able to say that the Jedi would win, but I don't think a Jedi would. In the movies, you can actually see the blaster shots traveling. Since bullets in real life move way faster than the naked eye can see, I can only conclude that blaster shots move ridiculously slow. I think a guardsman with a lasgun could shoot a Jedi and he wouldn't be able to block it. In fact, I think you or I could kill a Jedi Master with a standard rifle.

All the Librarian would have to do it shoot a boltpistol at the Jedi and kill him. Of course, in CC, a Lightsaber would destroy a Librarian.

Grakmar wrote:All the Librarian would have to do it shoot a boltpistol at the Jedi and kill him. Of course, in CC, a Lightsaber would destroy a Librarian.

Possibly not. I don't think Lightsabers go through force-field type doo-wots, so if the Librarian had his Iron Halo switched on (Provided they can have one), a major advantage of the lightsaber would be gone. Even then, dismemberment affects a SMs fighting ability much less than you'd think, so the Jedi would have to be damn snappy about killing the Librarian before he had a chance to retaliate or even pre-emptively cut the unfortunate force-wielder up.

Grakmar wrote:All the Librarian would have to do it shoot a boltpistol at the Jedi and kill him. Of course, in CC, a Lightsaber would destroy a Librarian.

No it wouldn't. "Force Weapons" exist in both settings, and are actually quite close to eachother in effect and design.

Force Weapons in Star Wars are imbued with the wielder's force presence (it's actually a little known force power), and can block lightsabers. Force Weapons in Warhammer 40,000 are imbued with the wielder's psychic presence... and can in most interpretations block power weapons, as well as act as power weapons using the psychic force of the wielder.

So... actually the Librarian would be able to block the lightsaber with his force staff / force sword. While the lightsabre would be faster than the force weapon, the force weapon is less dangerous to the Librarian than the lightsaber is to the Jedi, making it easier to block, especially with a force staff.

And let's not forget that the average Marine fights dirty (or at least in such a way as to maximise his chances of winning), whilst Jedi use a fairly rigid combat style.

Gorskar.da.Lost wrote:And let's not forget that the average Marine fights dirty (or at least in such a way as to maximise his chances of winning), whilst Jedi use a fairly rigid combat style.

That's true. When Darth Maul fought Qui-Gon with his "I'm going to attack you with a weapon that looks totally badass but has a better chance of hurting myself than you" approach, Qui-Gon still couldn't manage to win.

Melissia wrote:Also, keep in mind that the lightsabre is designed to reflect blaster shots. A bolter shell would probably explode upon the lightsabre, harming the Jedi. Fun times.

Just stepping in here... a lightsabre can be used to deflect blaster shots, but the lightsabre predates blaster combat. Form III and Form V of lightsaber combat were developed in part due to the proliferation of blasters. Speaking of forms, consideration of which forms the Jedi Master was proficient in and level of mastery is kind of important as well. With respect to this, Obi-wan seems to be a good benchmark Jedi Master, as his main character billing places him above the weak sauce cannon fodder masters shown in AotC, and under the uber-masters such as Yoda and Mace Windu.

That's it! Everyone give me your lunch money.

Im going with the jedi, librarians aren't fast enough. However, I fight I would want to see would be Ahriman vs. Yoda

keezus wrote:

Melissia wrote:Also, keep in mind that the lightsabre is designed to reflect blaster shots. A bolter shell would probably explode upon the lightsabre, harming the Jedi. Fun times.

Just stepping in here... a lightsabre can be used to deflect blaster shots, but the lightsabre predates blaster combat. Form III and Form V of lightsaber combat were developed in part due to the proliferation of blasters. Speaking of forms, consideration of which forms the Jedi Master was proficient in and level of mastery is kind of important as well. With respect to this, Obi-wan seems to be a good benchmark Jedi Master, as his main character billing places him above the weak sauce cannon fodder masters shown in AotC, and under the uber-masters such as Yoda and Mace Windu.

IIRC, Obi-wan specialized in both Form III and Form IV, right? Form IV is highly acrobatic and makes liberal use of Force powers to augment it. If the Librarian's psychic hood neutralizes Force power, Obi-Wan would most likely be screwed.

abaddon=gargamel wrote:Im going with the jedi, librarians aren't fast enough.

Librarians are far more nimble than the average human. A human needs to train to very high levels of close combat capability to match a Librarian. And even then, they'd need to be a psyker because the Librarian can enhance their prowess with psychic powers.

SaintHazard wrote:IIRC, Obi-wan specialized in both Form III and Form IV, right? Form IV is highly acrobatic and makes liberal use of Force powers to augment it. If the Librarian's psychic hood neutralizes Force power, Obi-Wan would most likely be screwed.

Obi-Wan started with form IV under Qui-Gon, but switched over to Form III after Qui-Gon was killed. Form III being a defensive form might be effective vs a librarian, but hey, who knows... I don't actually care about the outcome - I just came to watch the internet nerds rage against each other.

As for the Force = Psychic Powers arguement... The Force, as described by Yoda is the "force that binds all living things together...", suggesting some sort of gestalt life-force field, where as Psykers harness the extra-dimensional power of the warp. I personally think its ludicrous to try and compare them as they are clearly seperate things, let alone suggest that a psychic hood would be some sort of Force nullifier. To take it a step further, as the Force is generated by living things, it would stand to reason that the Jedi, through the hated "midichlorians" is able to access Force powers in the 40k-verse, but the reverse wouldn't be true for the Librarian... at any rate...

"Let your hate flow!" Hahaha.

"Midichlorians" don't exist in 40k.

Well, let's see. Immaterium versus Force?

Binds the universe together? Check.
Mysterious and only easily accessible by specialists? Check.
Requires some predisposition in order to properly harness? Check.
Can be transmuted into raw energy by the sheer will of the user? Check.
Can be used to augment one's abilities? Check.
Can be imbued in nonliving objects? Check.

Sound pretty similar to me.

Melissia wrote:"Midichlorians" don't exist in 40k.

Neither do Jedi. The Jedi, if something like this were to happen, would have midichlorians in his blood because that's where the force comes from and what makes him a Jedi.

Also, I doubt the psychic hood would work on a Jedi's passive abilities. I imagine Obi Wan would still be able to use his Lightsaber form, just as a Warlock still gets to use Enhance even when there's a psychic hood around.

And the ability to use psychic powers is tied into a Psyker's genetics.

SaintHazard wrote:Well, let's see. Immaterium versus Force?

Binds the universe together? Check.
Mysterious and only easily accessible by specialists? Check.
Requires some predisposition in order to properly harness? Check.
Can be transmuted into raw energy by the sheer will of the user? Check.
Can be used to augment one's abilities? Check.
Can be imbued in nonliving objects? Check.

Sound pretty similar to me.

Now you're just being obtuse... That's like saying a horse is similar to a car in a transportational context.

Mode of transportation used to decrease travel time? Check.
Enables greater carrying capacity for cargo? Check.
Carries more than one passenger? Check.
Requires training to operate? Check.
Requires regular applications of fuel? Arguable, based on definition of fuel, but Check.
Generates waste products? Check.

Sound pretty similar to me.

Yes, they do, which is why it's perfectly reasonable to muse about who'd win in a race - a guy on a horse or a guy driving a car.

SaintHazard wrote:Yes, they do, which is why it's perfectly reasonable to muse about who'd win in a race - a guy on a horse or a guy driving a car.

But the guy on the horse is a cowboy who has a gun and could shoot out the car's tires.

Monster Rain wrote:

SaintHazard wrote:Yes, they do, which is why it's perfectly reasonable to muse about who'd win in a race - a guy on a horse or a guy driving a car.

But the guy on the horse is a cowboy who has a gun and could shoot out the car's tires.

Or the guy in the car is driving a go-kart. I never said what kind of car!

SaintHazard wrote:

Monster Rain wrote:

SaintHazard wrote:Yes, they do, which is why it's perfectly reasonable to muse about who'd win in a race - a guy on a horse or a guy driving a car.

But the guy on the horse is a cowboy who has a gun and could shoot out the car's tires.

Or the guy in the car is driving a go-kart. I never said what kind of car!

Chuck Norris is carrying the Horse though.

SaintHazard wrote:Yes, they do, which is why it's perfectly reasonable to muse about who'd win in a race - a guy on a horse or a guy driving a car.

Sure - that would apply if you were directly comparing if the Force and Warp... however, in this case, this thin application of "sameness" is only being used to justify the Psychic Hood's ability to nullify force powers. That would be like saying that because the horse and car are similar, it is reasonable to expect that the horse is also powered by gasoline. (Which, while off topic, sounds hillariously awesome.)

keezus wrote:

SaintHazard wrote:Yes, they do, which is why it's perfectly reasonable to muse about who'd win in a race - a guy on a horse or a guy driving a car.

Sure - that would apply if you were directly comparing if the Force and Warp... however, in this case, this thin application of "sameness" is only being used to justify the Psychic Hood's ability to nullify force powers. That would be like saying that because the horse and car are similar, it is reasonable to expect that the horse is also powered by gasoline. (Which, while off topic, sounds hillariously awesome.)

You didn't notice any of the "ifs" in my posts regarding that point, did you?

John Wayne could kick Chuck Norris's ass!

@SaintHazard: You didn't notice that you weren't the only one noting that the Force might = Psychic Powers... in fact, there are a number of others earlier in the thread who are downright adamant about it. Original post was aimed at them... but hey, something good did come out of it. We have Chuck Norris in the thread. He could beat a Jedi and a Librarian. At the same time. Riding a gasoline powered horse.