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Well just the act of forcing someone to kill themselves is something which would lead to the dark side anyway in the Star Wars universe.

That, or something a Gray Jedi would do.

And we never specified that the Jedi being discussed in this thread is a lightsider.

LordWynne wrote:I would go Jedi/Sith Lord as they can manipulate the minds of other. For instance, "Librarian tries to shot a Jedi/Sith Lord" the Jedi/Sith Lord uses mind control and the bolt blast goes another direction. In Star Wars yes the Jedi/Sith mind can redirict pysical attacks, a Librarian has a bolt pistol, Force Sword, a Jedi/Sith has a Lightsaber. An Energy Blade used with the force to cut through and object. The best the Librarian can do is take his Force Sword and hope it works and may deflect the lighsaber. The Jedi/Sith using the force in combat would be superior as his mental attacks are greater. One Librarian Dead being way to slow and not adgile.

I agree, a librarian would not win against a jedi.

However, if a farseer were to fight a jedi the farseer would win because:

1: 4+ invulnerable save acts as a forcefield like on the droidikas (episode I, aboard the confederate cruiser)
2: a farseer could predict the jedi's moves before the jedi knew he was going to use them (fortune psychic power)
3: the farseer could (and probably would) pump the jedi full of shurikens before he could draw his lightsaber (as he could use his powers of prediction to sneak up behind said jedi)
4. the farseer is motivated by the survival of his species rather than some outdated code of chivalry, and hence would not be afraid to play dirty.

Whirling Blade Exarch wrote:
I agree, a librarian would not win against a jedi.

However, if a farseer were to fight a jedi the farseer would win because:

1: 4+ invulnerable save acts as a forcefield like on the droidikas (episode I, aboard the confederate cruiser)
2: a farseer could predict the jedi's moves before the jedi knew he was going to use them (fortune psychic power)
3: the farseer could (and probably would) pump the jedi full of shurikens before he could draw his lightsaber (as he could use his powers of prediction to sneak up behind said jedi)
4. the farseer is motivated by the survival of his species rather than some outdated code of chivalry, and hence would not be afraid to play dirty.

I disagree!

1. A Librarian could get a 3+ invulnerable save (Storm Shield)
2. Librarians in the 4th Ed. Codex had a very similar power.
3. Storm Bolter
4. Not many marines are 'motivated by chivalry' and last time I checked, in the Ultimate Grimdark of the 41st millennium, Mankind is on the verge of extinction from every side, threats both external and internal.

Again, 40K and Star Wars really don't mesh well at all, and ultimately, no one is right and everyone is!

Librarian. Hey, you want to throw me into a wall? I'm 3 tons and I can boil your blood, shoot purple lightning out of my hands, rend you in half, teleport you into the warp, AND shoot you with my mass-reactive bolts and rip your face off with a chainsword.

No contest.

Honestly, 40k just kicks ing arse.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Captain Solon wrote:the changeling wins.

Doesn't he always?

I'll say the Librarian would win. The lightsaber is probably a better weapon than the force sword is in this situation, but the armor's still going to be too much for the Jedi to handle, and the Librarians seem to display more powerful abilities, at least as far as combat is concerned (though not by too large of a margin).

Additional things to consider about a Jedi's power level:

A lightsaber can be blocked by an energized staff weapon, as seen in Episode 3.
Two jedi considered flight preferable to fight when confronted with two droids with rapid fire lasers and shields. Not exactly fearsome.

I don't see why people think that the Jedi are faster than a Librarian would be. They're not moving at super-human speeds in the movies, although they are certainly very skilled in combat. They couldn't match on Harlequins, speed wise, and honestly, they're probably only about even with Space Marines. The Jedi's powers aren't going to be much help either, since they're at least matched with the Librarians pretty much everywhere (I would say, however, that the Psychic Hood wouldn't be able to nullify the Jedi's abilities, as they are based in the Force rather than the Warp).

The Jedi's only real advantage in this fight is the lightsaber, which is an excellent weapon. However, the Librarian's armor and physiology is probably going to render the lightsaber insufficient to win (Power Armor is probably the equivalent in material to the blast doors in Phantom Menace, though obviously not as thick).

Honestly, this isn't really even too fair of a match up. The best equivalent to a Jedi in the 40k universe would probably be a psychic Inquisitor Lord, both in ability and in the general role they play within their universe.

Jedi CAN move at superhuman speeds, however, using a force ability called "Force Speed" (a functional if unoriginal name). I don't think it was as powerful as it sounds though, as its main use was the ability to run long distances according to wookiepedia, not to actually move a lot faster. And only jedi masters could apparently really use it in combat that way.

Melissia wrote:Jedi CAN move at superhuman speeds, however, using a force ability called "Force Speed" (a functional if unoriginal name). I don't think it was as powerful as it sounds though, as its main use was the ability to run long distances according to wookiepedia, not to actually move a lot faster. And only jedi masters could apparently really use it in combat that way.

The Jedi Knight series of games (which, IIRC, are considered canon, like most LucasArts works) allowed you to use the power to make quick dashes in combat, and you were far from a Jedi Master in that series (especially in III: Jedi Academy, where you were - you guessed it - a Jedi apprentice). Furthermore, there was another power (can't remember what it's called) that allowed you to essentially slow down time and move at incredible speeds for a few seconds at a time. No real combat application (it was used to get through closing doors) in the game, but theoretically it could be used by a Jedi in a less restricting setting.

And I'm not quite sure the assertion (can't remember who made it) that Jedi are all comparable to human beings is entirely correct - we have examples of Wookiees and Trandoshans becoming Jedi, both of which are significantly tougher and stronger than your average human, and Zabraks and Twi'leks, both of which are significantly more nimble than your average human.

True, I never said ALL of them were, I said most races were roughly equivalent to humans. In a D20 system, races like Wookies would have a level penalty (IE, they require XP one, two, or more levels above their current level) to represent the advantage they have, as some races are very distinctly superior to humans in most ways (sometimes in pretty much every way depending on how mary sue the author makes them to be).

I'd say it's enough of an exception to warrant notice.

After all, since Space Marines are not humans, can't my Jedi be a Trandoshan?

And yet, most Jedi were humanoids. If you're looking for the most exceptional Jedi, then you should also pick the most exceptional Astartes.

Primarchs!

I hereby recant my statement and am perfectly happy with a normal human Jedi!

Besides, the most exceptional Jedi (that I know of) in their history was a tree.

Melissia wrote:Besides, the most exceptional Jedi (that I know of) in their history was a tree.

Are you trying to tell me that's not awesome?

But who should a tree Jedi be matched up against? Catachans?

A Libby dreadnought

Orkeosaurus wrote:But who should a tree Jedi be matched up against? Catachans?

Catachans have heavy flamethrowers.

Why is this even in question? Of course a Librarian beats a Jedi. A *Tactical Marine* probably beats a Jedi. Consider that Jango Fett, (elite human), can kill Jedi; a Tactical Marine (ultra elite superhuman), should definitely be able to take one out, especially given his superior equipment.

Jango also hunted and killed Sith and Jedi for most of his adult life, along with being a member of a "race"(in quotes since Mandalorians are a group that does alot of adoption, and is really more of an organization/mercenary outfit than a race) that knows all the tricks of the trade for bringing down snarky Force adept individuals.

So yeah, of course Jango Fett can kill Jedi.

Sly Marbo can kill a space marine.

Moving on...

Jango Fett would probably be closest to a Rogue Trader or an Inquisitor, 40k-wise, and it isn't too much of a stretch to imagine one of them taking out a Space Marine. They've got enough tricks.

SaintHazard wrote:The Jedi Knight series of games (which, IIRC, are considered canon, like most LucasArts works) allowed you to use the power to make quick dashes in combat, and you were far from a Jedi Master in that series (especially in III: Jedi Academy, where you were - you guessed it - a Jedi apprentice). Furthermore, there was another power (can't remember what it's called) that allowed you to essentially slow down time and move at incredible speeds for a few seconds at a time. No real combat application (it was used to get through closing doors) in the game, but theoretically it could be used by a Jedi in a less restricting setting.

Is this ability to dash in combat moving them at inhuman speeds? This would sort of be the crux of the issue, regarding the divide between human and superhuman. However, I would think that in any case the dashing ability would be of limited use, since I don't think the Jedi would want to close with a marine.

An ability used to move quickly through doors but isn't used in combat is a bit suspect, so far as abilities go. None of the movies show the Jedi doing things at "bullet-time" speed, though they most certainly would have been better off using them in many situations if they could. The Jedi would be concentrating on not cutting himself in half with his lightsaber and not getting mind-blasted (or chopped in half, or shot) by the Librarian during the fight as well, so if there's a limitation on the ability's use in combat, it would probably be making itself present.

Now one thing Jedi do have going for them is that ability to jump around like a melon-fether. However, the practical applications of this in a fight aren't anything too special, unless the fight is taking place in some sort of ridiculous fiery whirling blade factory. I suppose it may help with the height disadvantage. They're probably going to need to go for the head if they want a quick kill.

Also, keep in mind that the lightsabre is designed to reflect blaster shots. A bolter shell would probably explode upon the lightsabre, harming the Jedi. Fun times.

Melissia wrote:Also, keep in mind that the lightsabre is designed to reflect blaster shots. A bolter shell would probably explode upon the lightsabre, harming the Jedi. Fun times.

Well, since bolter shells move at subsonic speeds (IIRC), I call upon the Jedi's precognition and preternatural swiftness to dodge the bolts instead of deflecting them.

Well I think a "normal" Jedi is basically on par with something like a Calidus assassin. Minus the polymorph. The sword is the closest thing to a lightsaber and the neural shredder can be like some offensive force power. Works well on low leadership units, not so againts the strong willed. 4+ dodge save, jump back. More or less a very well trained human with unique skills.


If were talking about named characters, then you have to compare guys like Mephiston, Calgar, Tigurius etc against guys like Mace Windu, Yoda and so on.

I'm going to have to say that a Master Jedi could take out a chief librarian easily. In the short 15 minute long cartoons on Cartoon Network. Mace Windu takes out an entire army droids with a giant vehicle by himself and Yoda Brings down a couple of battle cruisers with just his mind. I don't think a Librarian would be able to take out an entire army on his own.

Err, no? The Lightsabre is roughly equivalent to a power sword. Actually, there are power swords that are basically lightsabres in the fluff.


Also, the reason why armies aren't taken out by psykers in 40k is because the 40k armies don't suck.

Seriously, the Trade Federation army got taken out by a bunch of primitives wielding atlatls, catapults, and spears. The Empire's army got taken down by a bunch of small little furry things with, and I wish I was fething kidding, sticks and stones.

I don't take Star Wars armies seriously.

LordWynne wrote:I would go Jedi/Sith Lord as they can manipulate the minds of other.

Only on weak-minded individuals, however. A Librarian, given the nature of his powers, has immense willpower, and would probably not be as susceptible to this.

On what are you basing this adamant assertion that a Lightsaber is the equivalent of a Power Sword? Believe it or not, Star Wars already has Vibro-weapons which are more similar to power weapons than Lightsabers.

A power sword isn't capable of cutting through armored bulkheads, a Lightsaber is. It's better than a power weapon.