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Ok, so we all hear about the discussions about "40K vs Star Wars, 40K vs Halo, etc", but I've been thinking of an alternate one: Who would win out of a Jedi/Sith Master, or a Chief Librarian? These guys seem pretty on-par with their abilities: both shoot lightning, both can control objects with their mind, both can use mind trickery against their foes. However, there are wargear abilities which are unique to both units, such as the ability to choke people using the mind, or the ability to summon black holes, etc. Imagine that they run into close-combat and work from that.

Please keep this discussion formal, no going too off-the-rails with this.

My vote goes to the Librarian.

While a Jedi Master is powerful, and has powers on par with those of a Librarian, the fact remains that the Jedi Master relies entirely on the Force. Without it, he/she/it is just a normal human/alien/whatever. On the other hand, if a Librarian's psychic powers are somehow nullified, well... he's still a Space Marine. He's still wearing power armor and carrying a bolt pistol. And I have a feeling that, if the Force is anything like the Warp (and if the universes were to cross over, it'd have to be), the Librarian's psychic hood would quickly turn the fearsome Jedi Master into nothing more than a regular dude. Enter bolt pistol.

If we presume for a moment that the two are significantly far apart (and therefore will not use CC attacks), and that the Warp and the Force are non-interchangeable systems (i.e. force will not block psychic powers, and vice versa) it will come down to whoever had the stronger training (or they'll just kill each other).

For example, several Force-wielders have demonstrated the ability to implode vehicles, crushing the occupants. Even a Librarian couldn't survive his armour being crushed down into a ball.

On the other hand, Warp-energy attacks are arguably more powerful than Force-energy attacks. We typically see warp-attacks easily shredding through armour, bulkheads, and pretty much any terrain, with the end effect usually that the target is reduced to an unrecognizable form. I don't imagine a Jedi's robes (or even a lightsaber) could withstand that kind of power for any non-negligible length of time.

So I say depends.

To take another view: If they're very close together, it would be akin to a Warlock (robes, fast, psychic) vs a Librarian. In this case (and from the fluff I've read) the Jedi could win, but only if the space marine doesn't manage to grab him/her. If the Librarian gets his hands on the jedi, the jedi is going to have his arm ripped out of his socket at the very least. And do not underestimate the speed with which a Librarian could do this; it's not like he'll sit there and monologue for five minutes while the jedi cuts off his arm.

idunno, Librarians can basically create a black hole.....going with Librarian.

Better yet, what if 1 jedi and 1 librarian fought WITH each other, rather than against? THATS what I wanna see. Combining the speed of the Force with the power of the Warp, that is a deadly combo.


My bet is librarian. We must not forget that a lightsabre will do almost nothing for a bolt, as they are designed to block lasers, not explosive rpg rounds.

I would go Jedi/Sith Lord as they can manipulate the minds of other. For instance, "Librarian tries to shot a Jedi/Sith Lord" the Jedi/Sith Lord uses mind control and the bolt blast goes another direction. In Star Wars yes the Jedi/Sith mind can redirict pysical attacks, a Librarian has a bolt pistol, Force Sword, a Jedi/Sith has a Lightsaber. An Energy Blade used with the force to cut through and object. The best the Librarian can do is take his Force Sword and hope it works and may deflect the lighsaber. The Jedi/Sith using the force in combat would be superior as his mental attacks are greater. One Librarian Dead being way to slow and not adgile.

I've gotta say a Jedi would completely dominate. For a lot of reasons, not least of which that there's no "Perils of the Force" attacks that they would need to worry about.

SaintHazard wrote:While a Jedi Master is powerful, and has powers on par with those of a Librarian, the fact remains that the Jedi Master relies entirely on the Force. Without it, he/she/it is just a normal human/alien/whatever. On the other hand, if a Librarian's psychic powers are somehow nullified, well... he's still a Space Marine. He's still wearing power armor and carrying a bolt pistol.

And the Jedi still has a Lightsaber! I'm pretty sure that would cut through Power Armor as easily as it does everything else. A Jedi would probably have a few powers that wouldn't be affected by a Psychic Hood anyway, sort of like a Warlock.

I wonder if a suit of power armor would impede a lightsaber at all?

Im guessing they are probably power weapon equivalents, given that they are plasma blades IIRC, and plasma in 40k is AP2

Still a Libby with Bolt Pistol and a Force Weapon would probably beat a jedi, especially since I doubt the usual force blast wouldnt work on Power Armor all that well.

del'Vhar wrote:I wonder if a suit of power armor would impede a lightsaber at all?

Im guessing they are probably power weapon equivalents, given that they are plasma blades IIRC, and plasma in 40k is AP2

Still a Libby with Bolt Pistol and a Force Weapon would probably beat a jedi, especially since I doubt the usual force blast wouldnt work on Power Armor all that well.

Well, to put it in simple terms:
There's Power Armor equivalents in the Star Wars universe. And Lightsabers can slice clean through that stuff, without skipping a beat.
The only difference is made when an ore called "Cortosis" is used, and to a lesser extent another ore called "Beskar".
Cortosis completely, for lack of a better term, "shortcircuits" the lightsaber by causing an overload in the focusing crystals when the blade comes in contact with it.
Beskar is probably similar to the materials used in Terminator Armour, but far far lighter.

If the Force and the Warp are seperate, then it's mostly luck. At range, the Librarian has more offensive powers (plus a gun) but the Jedi/Sith has insane reflexes, and pushing/pulling/crushing/lightning/whatever. I think a lightsaber would still be effective against a bolt; it wouldn't get deflected, but it wouldn't be hitting its target either.

At close combat the advantage rests with the Librarian, but the Jedi/Sith could still win. Lightsabers go through anything like a hot knife through butter, so all Mr. Jedi has to do is get one good hit. Of course, that's all Mr. Librarian has to do as well, and he is stronger and much more durable. A Librarian will continue to fight without an arm. A Jedi? Not so much. Powers-wise, the Jedi has a slight advantage in CC, as the pushing/pulling business is safer than black holes or lightning.

Bu if Force=Warp, Librarian wins. With the PH shutting down most Jedi/Sith powers, the Jedi/Sith loses not only the offensive powers but also their speed, reflexes, ect.

Libby!
Because he can do anything XD

A jedi can chop right through a battle droid, but it takes an extremely long time to cut through something more resilient, like a bulkhead, or power armor. A Light saber would at most be as effective as a power sword. A force weapon is a power weapon that also destroys your soul if it hits you.
The jedi can quicken himself, but so can the librarian.
The jedi can shoot magic lightning, but so can the librarian, and his is depicted as significantly stronger.
The librarian has a psychic hood, which in a crossover would likely work against the force.
The librarian also is a super human. If they ever got into close combat, the librarian would win without a doubt.
The librarian also has a side arm, which would be of moderate usefulness.

A more reasonable matchup is Jedi vs Eldar Warlock. They would be close in power, with the warlock probably having a slight edge. In physical prowess and armor, the warlock would again likely have the edge. It would likely be a lot closer than Jedi vs Librarian.

I remember the Jedi not being your run-of-the-mill humans as people have said. Take away his Force, his unflailing mental training still remains, and so does his impeccably honed reflexes.

People seem to think lightsabers are for deflecting lasers. They are swords. And a Librarian is a bulky, hulky brute that any Jedi master worth his salt would circumvent and impale within a moment's notice. I'd say it'd be very much Eldrad vs Librarian fight. The difference in strength means very little when your weapon is weightless and cuts through thickest alloys. Plus the Jedi would be WS no less than 7, and his I would be 7-10, depending on training, while Librarians is in the lower end of the scale.

But I agree that if luck(he rolled lot of 1's and 2's on to-hit) wasn't on the Jedi's side and the Libro actually managed to hit him or grab him with his fist...it's game over for the ninja-dude.

Araenion wrote:I remember the Jedi not being your run-of-the-mill humans as people have said. Take away his Force, his unflailing mental training still remains, and so does his impeccably honed reflexes.

People seem to think lightsabers are for deflecting lasers. They are swords. And a Librarian is a bulky, hulky brute that any Jedi master worth his salt would circumvent and impale within a moment's notice. I'd say it'd be very much Eldrad vs Librarian fight. The difference in strength means very little when your weapon is weightless and cuts through thickest alloys. Plus the Jedi would be WS no less than 7, and his I would be 7-10, depending on training, while Librarians is in the lower end of the scale.

But I agree that if luck(he rolled lot of 1's and 2's on to-hit) wasn't on the Jedi's side and the Libro actually managed to hit him or grab him with his fist...it's game over for the ninja-dude.

Except that not all jedis are Mace Windu/Anakin Skywalker/Palpatine.

Given how quickly and easily most of the Masters were killed by droids taking them by surprise, I think it would be a far more even matchup than you suggest.

Most Jedi Masters would probably be WS 5 or 6 I5 with BS 3 S3 and T3, W1 and no armor with a 4++ dodge/deflection save (like DE wyches) Armed with a Power weapon.
Ld on a Master would be 9 or 10 as well I'd say.

del'Vhar wrote:

Araenion wrote:I remember the Jedi not being your run-of-the-mill humans as people have said. Take away his Force, his unflailing mental training still remains, and so does his impeccably honed reflexes.

People seem to think lightsabers are for deflecting lasers. They are swords. And a Librarian is a bulky, hulky brute that any Jedi master worth his salt would circumvent and impale within a moment's notice. I'd say it'd be very much Eldrad vs Librarian fight. The difference in strength means very little when your weapon is weightless and cuts through thickest alloys. Plus the Jedi would be WS no less than 7, and his I would be 7-10, depending on training, while Librarians is in the lower end of the scale.

But I agree that if luck(he rolled lot of 1's and 2's on to-hit) wasn't on the Jedi's side and the Libro actually managed to hit him or grab him with his fist...it's game over for the ninja-dude.

Except that not all jedis are Mace Windu/Anakin Skywalker/Palpatine.

Given how quickly and easily most of the Masters were killed by droids taking them by surprise, I think it would be a far more even matchup than you suggest.

Most Jedi Masters would probably be WS 5 or 6 I5 with BS 3 S3 and T3, W1 and no armor with a 4++ dodge/deflection save (like DE wyches) Armed with a Power weapon.
Ld on a Master would be 9 or 10 as well I'd say.

Note: The die-off of all the Jedi at the end of RotS was rather unlikely and was a huge plot device. And I think the assumption is that both parties are fully aware of the other, so suprise is not an issue.

Grotzooka wrote:

del'Vhar wrote:

Araenion wrote:I remember the Jedi not being your run-of-the-mill humans as people have said. Take away his Force, his unflailing mental training still remains, and so does his impeccably honed reflexes.

People seem to think lightsabers are for deflecting lasers. They are swords. And a Librarian is a bulky, hulky brute that any Jedi master worth his salt would circumvent and impale within a moment's notice. I'd say it'd be very much Eldrad vs Librarian fight. The difference in strength means very little when your weapon is weightless and cuts through thickest alloys. Plus the Jedi would be WS no less than 7, and his I would be 7-10, depending on training, while Librarians is in the lower end of the scale.

But I agree that if luck(he rolled lot of 1's and 2's on to-hit) wasn't on the Jedi's side and the Libro actually managed to hit him or grab him with his fist...it's game over for the ninja-dude.

Except that not all jedis are Mace Windu/Anakin Skywalker/Palpatine.

Given how quickly and easily most of the Masters were killed by droids taking them by surprise, I think it would be a far more even matchup than you suggest.

Most Jedi Masters would probably be WS 5 or 6 I5 with BS 3 S3 and T3, W1 and no armor with a 4++ dodge/deflection save (like DE wyches) Armed with a Power weapon.
Ld on a Master would be 9 or 10 as well I'd say.

Note: The die-off of all the Jedi at the end of RotS was rather unlikely and was a huge plot device. And I think the assumption is that both parties are fully aware of the other, so suprise is not an issue.

yet it is lore!

Araenion wrote:I remember the Jedi not being your run-of-the-mill humans as people have said. Take away his Force, his unflailing mental training still remains, and so does his impeccably honed reflexes.

People seem to think lightsabers are for deflecting lasers. They are swords. And a Librarian is a bulky, hulky brute that any Jedi master worth his salt would circumvent and impale within a moment's notice. I'd say it'd be very much Eldrad vs Librarian fight. The difference in strength means very little when your weapon is weightless and cuts through thickest alloys. Plus the Jedi would be WS no less than 7, and his I would be 7-10, depending on training, while Librarians is in the lower end of the scale.

But I agree that if luck(he rolled lot of 1's and 2's on to-hit) wasn't on the Jedi's side and the Libro actually managed to hit him or grab him with his fist...it's game over for the ninja-dude.

Star Wars fanboy detected.
A space marine trains and fights significantly more than a Jedi, in addition to living longer, and having genetic modification to make his combat learning and reflexes better still. A Jedi additionally trains to use the force as a guide for his fighting style, and without it he is significantly unbalanced.
A librarian is bulky, true, but a space marine can act lightning fast in his power armor, as it is an extension of his nervous system and does not slow him down in the slightest.
A lightsaber could not slash through power armor. Maybe if the jedi managed to get a solid stab off on the marine, he could pierce through, but is very likely that if stuck into a space marine, who has automatic pain blocking, redundant organs, and automatic blood clotting, would simply crush the jedi in hand to hand and remove the lightsaber.
The fact that you think that a Jedi is WS7 and initiative 7-10 is completely ridiculous and so off base that it significantly undermines your argument to the point that I honestly can't take you seriously any more.

ph34r wrote:
1. A lightsaber could not slash through power armor. Maybe if the jedi managed to get a solid stab off on the marine, he could pierce through, but is very likely that if stuck into a space marine, who has automatic pain blocking, redundant organs, and 2. automatic blood clotting, would simply crush the jedi in hand to hand and remove the lightsaber.
The fact that you think that a 3. Jedi is WS7 and initiative 7-10 is completely ridiculous and so off base that it significantly undermines your argument to the point that I honestly can't take you seriously any more.

1. Based on what, exactly?
2. Blood clotting is irrelevant, as the Lightsaber would cauterize the wound. Just saying
3. Really, do you need to be that nasty?

Also, some Jedi live for centuries as well. Yoda is quite vocal on the subject.

Is everyone forgetting that in Starwars there's also metals, including swords and ARMOR that stop light sabers? Forget what the stuff is called... but it exists. It's the same stuff Boba Fett wears around as armor. I know it's traditional Mandalorian. I know this, because I'm a bit of A Mandalorian fan (not Star Wars just Mandalorians) and I hate Jedi. So how do we know that the metals the Imperium uses in power swords and power armor isn't equally as resilient?

(By the way I think it's called bescargen (spelling?) or something like that

So... is Power Armor made out of that stuff?

General Grievous' bodyguard had weapons that could stop lightsabers, but it wasn't a metal that did it it was some sort of force shield IIRC.

Grotzooka wrote:
Note: The die-off of all the Jedi at the end of RotS was rather unlikely and was a huge plot device. And I think the assumption is that both parties are fully aware of the other, so suprise is not an issue.

It's still fluff and still happened. If C.S Goto wrote tomorrow that a Gun Drone traveled back in time and killed the Emperor in CC before the Horus Heresy, there would probably a mass Suicide, and the remaining 40k players would have to accept that a Gun Drone killed the Emperor in CC.

And what about in Episode two when some Jedi died, knowing they were fighting droids?

Not every Jedi is Mace Windu/ Obi-wan/Yoda/Qui-gon. Jedi Masters can be Average, Librarians (and Space Marines in general, as much as I hate it) are WELL above average.

Iur_tae_mont wrote:

Grotzooka wrote:
Note: The die-off of all the Jedi at the end of RotS was rather unlikely and was a huge plot device. And I think the assumption is that both parties are fully aware of the other, so suprise is not an issue.

It's still fluff and still happened. If C.S Goto wrote tomorrow that a Gun Drone traveled back in time and killed the Emperor in CC before the Horus Heresy, there would probably a mass Suicide, and the remaining 40k players would have to accept that a Gun Drone killed the Emperor in CC.

And what about in Episode two when some Jedi died, knowing they were fighting droids?

Not every Jedi is Mace Windu/ Obi-wan/Yoda/Qui-gon. Jedi Masters can be Average, Librarians (and Space Marines in general, as much as I hate it) are WELL above average.

Ummm... no.

I would say that a Master, by definition, is above average.

You're right. I was just confused because they died to mass small arms fire like Guardsman out of cover.

Who did?

Not the Jedi Masters. The rank and file, maybe. And if a Librarian's entire company suddenly turned on him with their bolt pistols he probably wouldn't live through it either.

Some Masters absolutely did die to mass small arms fire.

Just none of the plot important ones.

And given that the question was Master vs Chief Librarian, they are both at the top of their fields so to speak, so it wouldn't be like Anakin walking through the Academy gleefully swinging his saber through the younglings.

del'Vhar wrote:Some Masters absolutely did die to mass small arms fire.

Just none of the plot important ones

Even so, a Librarian would die to that as well. I question the relevance.

OK so if a jedi tried to block a bolt, it would just explode in the air and screw the jedi.


Librarians know the future, jedi do not (dont argue with it!)

It would take at least 10 seconds to cut through power armour, as it does to cut through the door in episode 1.

The slightest touch on your skin from a force weapon will obliterate your soul.

Jedi without force cannot wield lightsabers at all, they use the force to focus, and use it to know where their lightsaber blade is. Without that, they would find themselves in little pieces very quickly due to the weightlessness of the lightsaber.

I don't know about ten seconds to chop through Power Armor, but it wouldn't be like slicing butter.

ph34r wrote:Star Wars fanboy detected.

First of all, drop the "ad homined", pal. If you can't have a discussion without resorting to personal snipes, forums are no place for you. Furthermore, this is a lighthearted(I presume, I honestly can't see it as anything different) debate about two different fictional universes. All you will ever get around here are opinions, not facts in any way, shape or form.

the changeling wins.