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Frazzled wrote:When did Necrons start having aircraft?

Wasn't there a bit of fluff in one of the necon codexes where a small number of necron fighters attacked/crashed/shot down on mars?

As far as I'm aware, those were necron spaceships

Ma55ter_fett wrote:

Frazzled wrote:When did Necrons start having aircraft?

Wasn't there a bit of fluff in one of the necon codexes where a small number of necron fighters attacked/crashed/shot down on mars?

Indeed, but those were Necron cruisers (or maybe escort ships).

Formosa wrote:I have to say Imperial or Eldar, I'm not sure where the idea that most Imperial pilots die comes from though?

in the taros book it states that while the Tau have better tech in there airforce, the imperials have the edge in experiance that the Tau simply cannot match, this is why the Tau targeted there airbases ASAP.

however orks have numbers, quantity is a quality of its own, to quote a famous general
"one of my tigers is worth 10 or your shermans, its a shame you always bring an eleventh"

Much of the Tau spank is debuffed in Kill Team.
Tau aren't more advanced than the Imperium.

VikingScott wrote:

chowderhead13 wrote:This is why Tau wins.

Thats a lander designed to carry troops to the surface not an air superiority fighter.

There is a bomber version of this that can eradicate anything. It also has lost of air superiority tactics, such as occupying the entire air.

Eldar are going to have it hands down. It's not just the aircraft, it's the pilot. The eldar pilot will have more experience in that fighter, then the human/ork/tau has in life.

Their technology is millions of years more advanced as well. Take a look at the F-22 compaired to 4th generation aircraft. The F-22 in flying against top of the line 4th generation American fighters, flown by the best pilots, has a kill ratio of several hundred to one.

So they're going to have the technological edge, as well as the training edge. The only drawback that they may have in establishing air superiority is numbers.

Not neccessarily. Air Caste are born with what it takes an eldar centuries to learn.

KamikazeCanuck wrote:Not neccessarily. Air Caste are born with what it takes an eldar centuries to learn.

Centuries? You have a low opinion on how quick Eldar are don't you? Just because they live a really long time it doesn't take them centuries to become experienced with piloting aircraft.

djones520 wrote:Eldar are going to have it hands down. It's not just the aircraft, it's the pilot. The eldar pilot will have more experience in that fighter, then the human/ork/tau has in life.

Their technology is millions of years more advanced as well. Take a look at the F-22 compaired to 4th generation aircraft. The F-22 in flying against top of the line 4th generation American fighters, flown by the best pilots, has a kill ratio of several hundred to one.

So they're going to have the technological edge, as well as the training edge. The only drawback that they may have in establishing air superiority is numbers.

F22 got spanked by f18s and f16s in the last war game against Australia just thought you should know =)

Eyclonus wrote:Orks.

Fighta-Bomba skwadrons can be quickly converted to effective ground force.

Isn't this a fancy way of saying crashing


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chowderhead13 wrote:

VikingScott wrote:

chowderhead13 wrote:This is why Tau wins.

Thats a lander designed to carry troops to the surface not an air superiority fighter.

There is a bomber version of this that can eradicate anything. It also has lost of air superiority tactics, such as occupying the entire air.

The eldar vampire hunter has eldar pulsars (same as the ones on the titans) they would chew through one of these in no time sharp.

Air space is not dominated by bombers they are just huge targets in the air (chaos harbinger bombers in double eagle ) this is why they need fighter escort

Not to go too far off-topic, but didn't the F22 get it's ass handed to it in every war-game it was tested in?

Pulsars are blast weapons, right? Unable to hit flyers, right?

What is this "Kill Team" you speak of? Battle Missions doesn't have anything on flyers as far as I'm aware . . .

Irdiumstern wrote:

What is this "Kill Team" you speak of? Battle Missions doesn't have anything on flyers as far as I'm aware . . .

He means the book kill team i think ( not a great book )
http://www.blacklibrary.com/all-products/Kill-Team.html

Retribution wrote:Not to go too far off-topic, but didn't the F22 get it's ass handed to it in every war-game it was tested in?

yup I dont know what the exact problem is but the RAAF handed the F22 its ass last two times we did joint training/wargames with the states

Retribution wrote:Not to go too far off-topic, but didn't the F22 get it's ass handed to it in every war-game it was tested in?

Ummm... no. It's first outing, at Northern Edge 2006 (in Alaska) it came home with a kill ratio of 108 to 0. Since that time, only twice has an F-22 been "killed" in a wargame, and one of those was due to a Red Team Aggressor reentering combat before he was supposed to, so the F-22 ignored it.

They've "downed" hundreds of aircraft, from the best we, and our allies, have to offer. Here's a couple qoutes from people who have flown against it.

"I can't see the [expletive deleted] thing," said RAAF Squadron Leader Stephen Chappell, exchange F-15 pilot in the 65th Aggressor Squadron. "It won't let me put a weapons system on it, even when I can see it visually through the canopy. [Flying against the F-22] annoys the hell out of me."

Lt. Col. Larry Bruce, 65th AS commander, admits flying against the Raptor is a very frustrating experience. Reluctantly, he admitted "it's humbling to fly against the F-22," - humbling, not only because of its stealth, but also its unmatched maneuverability and power.

The F-22 is a beast. It is an aircraft that makes the F-15 look like a childs toy.

djones520 wrote:

Retribution wrote:Not to go too far off-topic, but didn't the F22 get it's ass handed to it in every war-game it was tested in?

Ummm... no. It's first outing, at Northern Edge 2006 (in Alaska) it came home with a kill ratio of 108 to 0. Since that time, only twice has an F-22 been "killed" in a wargame, and one of those was due to a Red Team Aggressor reentering combat before he was supposed to, so the F-22 ignored it.

They've "downed" hundreds of aircraft, from the best we, and our allies, have to offer. Here's a couple qoutes from people who have flown against it.

"I can't see the [expletive deleted] thing," said RAAF Squadron Leader Stephen Chappell, exchange F-15 pilot in the 65th Aggressor Squadron. "It won't let me put a weapons system on it, even when I can see it visually through the canopy. [Flying against the F-22] annoys the hell out of me."

Lt. Col. Larry Bruce, 65th AS commander, admits flying against the Raptor is a very frustrating experience. Reluctantly, he admitted "it's humbling to fly against the F-22," - humbling, not only because of its stealth, but also its unmatched maneuverability and power.

The F-22 is a beast. It is an aircraft that makes the F-15 look like a childs toy.

Weren't we comparing these to Hornets???
And yeah... the f-22 was beaten by the RAAF. One of my mates was there.

Yeah, that was the 2nd loss. The RAAF has never handed the F-22 it's ass. It's had it's ass handed to it by the F-22 on plenty of occasions. See my above qoute from an RAAF commander.

Shame it got canned

Jubear wrote:didnt work for egypt or iran or iraq air combat is decided by who has the best toys/longest stand off range

Orks have some pretty cool toys.

djones520 wrote:

Retribution wrote:Not to go too far off-topic, but didn't the F22 get it's ass handed to it in every war-game it was tested in?

Ummm... no. It's first outing, at Northern Edge 2006 (in Alaska) it came home with a kill ratio of 108 to 0. Since that time, only twice has an F-22 been "killed" in a wargame, and one of those was due to a Red Team Aggressor reentering combat before he was supposed to, so the F-22 ignored it.

They've "downed" hundreds of aircraft, from the best we, and our allies, have to offer. Here's a couple qoutes from people who have flown against it.

"I can't see the [expletive deleted] thing," said RAAF Squadron Leader Stephen Chappell, exchange F-15 pilot in the 65th Aggressor Squadron. "It won't let me put a weapons system on it, even when I can see it visually through the canopy. [Flying against the F-22] annoys the hell out of me."

Lt. Col. Larry Bruce, 65th AS commander, admits flying against the Raptor is a very frustrating experience. Reluctantly, he admitted "it's humbling to fly against the F-22," - humbling, not only because of its stealth, but also its unmatched maneuverability and power.

The F-22 is a beast. It is an aircraft that makes the F-15 look like a childs toy.

Actually it was in the news here not that long ago there was a huge uproar in the media because we are one of the countrys that have orders in for a bunch of them and its was getting beaten by older designs aparent problems include complete lack manoeuvrability and sluggish engine performance. Im sure its electronics are top notch but the aircraft seems to suffer from alot of strange problems (engines seem to not wanna work in the rain) F-22 at the moment is not anywhere close to be as good as you think it is I honestly wish we where getting a bunch of F15s instead now theres a fething great aircraft

Jubear wrote:

djones520 wrote:

Retribution wrote:Not to go too far off-topic, but didn't the F22 get it's ass handed to it in every war-game it was tested in?

Ummm... no. It's first outing, at Northern Edge 2006 (in Alaska) it came home with a kill ratio of 108 to 0. Since that time, only twice has an F-22 been "killed" in a wargame, and one of those was due to a Red Team Aggressor reentering combat before he was supposed to, so the F-22 ignored it.

They've "downed" hundreds of aircraft, from the best we, and our allies, have to offer. Here's a couple qoutes from people who have flown against it.

"I can't see the [expletive deleted] thing," said RAAF Squadron Leader Stephen Chappell, exchange F-15 pilot in the 65th Aggressor Squadron. "It won't let me put a weapons system on it, even when I can see it visually through the canopy. [Flying against the F-22] annoys the hell out of me."

Lt. Col. Larry Bruce, 65th AS commander, admits flying against the Raptor is a very frustrating experience. Reluctantly, he admitted "it's humbling to fly against the F-22," - humbling, not only because of its stealth, but also its unmatched maneuverability and power.

The F-22 is a beast. It is an aircraft that makes the F-15 look like a childs toy.

Actually it was in the news here not that long ago there was a huge uproar in the media because we are one of the countrys that have orders in for a bunch of them and its was getting beaten by older designs aparent problems include complete lack manoeuvrability and sluggish engine performance. Im sure its electronics are top notch but the aircraft seems to suffer from alot of strange problems (engines seem to not wanna work in the rain) F-22 at the moment is not anywhere close to be as good as you think it is I honestly wish we where getting a bunch of F15s instead now theres a fething great aircraft

I remember that... I was begginning to think that I dreamt about it...

Best aircraft? Eldar.

Best pilots? Orks. Because, y'know, they're Orks. If they're shot down, they'll hit the eject, then fly their ejection seat into the enemy fighter, tear open the doors, and beat the other pilot to death with their own severed limbs.

Then they'll jack the fighter.

are we talking about BFG, if so i dunno who would win, but each army has aircraft


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are we talking about BFG, if so i dunno who would win, but each army has aircraft

Sageheart wrote:are we talking about BFG, if so i dunno who would win, but each army has aircraft


Automatically Appended Next Post:
are we talking about BFG, if so i dunno who would win, but each army has aircraft

No, we are talking air-to-air superiority fighters. So far though, Eldar seem to be owning...

The Eldar not only live longer, they live faster and harder than other races. To quote the eldar codex "Eldar are extremely long lived by human standards, commonly surviving for over a thousand years before old age overtakes them. They also live at a pace and pitch of intensity many times greater than even the most exceptional of humans. As an eldar's heart beats almost twice as fast as a Man's his mind processes thoughts and emotions with baffling speed, and his physical reactions are almost too fast for the human eye to follow."

Tau are Initiative 2, which means they think and react slower than humans. Maybe Air Caste are faster, as fast as humans; or just fast enough to die horribly in something as fast paced as supersonic aerial combat. And Tau aren't orks, they aren't born with encoded genetic knowledge on how to do things. Air Caste may have a predisposition towards it, but they must be trained like anyone else. And a Tau's life expectancy is what, 40-50? Manta's are assault craft, and might have a shot against WW2 style Imperial fighters, but I doubt the eldar would have a problem. From the old Tau codex "The Barracuda is the most common Tau atmospheric fighter, although different air caste septs tend to operate slightly different versions. The Barracuda is faster than the Imperial Marauder Bomber, but slightly SLOWER than the Thunderbolt fighter." "All pilots are of the Air Caste and have superior three dimensional situational awareness to human pilots and marginally higher acceleration tolerance. This makes them naturally more gifted pilots, but the experience of the best Imperial pilots gives them a hard edge which the air caste struggles to match"

all problems exacerbated by fighting the even better equipped and far more experienced Eldar. Now barring some Necron vehicle I am unaware of, I would consider this thread a sound victory for the Eldar, with an honorable mention for orks.

Eldar Fighters are equipped terribly, however. You can say all you want about how in the fluff eldar are unkillable, but every other race says the same crap in their fluff. Point is, their fighters suck.
Two anti-air shuriken cannons aren't going to knock much out of the sky. Their anti-air weapons can't scratch a manta's front armor, and can barely hurt sides and rear. The eldar aren't better equipped. Their aircraft are some of the worst in the game of 40k for taking out other aircraft.

I play quite a lot of Aeronautica Imperialis.
Imperials seem to have the edge over pretty much everything.
Eldar are nice and manoeuvrable, but they're fragile and expensive.
Thunderbolts are fantasticly versatile.

As to the Manta, it's a pain to kill, but it can be taken down with careful attacking, it's a big target.

Irdiumstern wrote:Eldar Fighters are equipped terribly, however. You can say all you want about how in the fluff eldar are unkillable, but every other race says the same crap in their fluff. Point is, their fighters suck.
Two anti-air shuriken cannons aren't going to knock much out of the sky. Their anti-air weapons can't scratch a manta's front armor, and can barely hurt sides and rear. The eldar aren't better equipped. Their aircraft are some of the worst in the game of 40k for taking out other aircraft.

Nice try, Shuriken cannons are their secondary for taking out infantry on the ground and light armoured fighters in the sky. And by the way, manta can be easily taken down by a lance, which, would you look at that, is the nightwings main armament. Then you have some nice pulsars on vampire and now were talking. Just so you know, Pulsars are titan killers.

I'm going for Imperium. Eldar have better fighters, but they'll be so amazed by the awsomely awsome Thunderbolts that they'll forget to pull up from the ground. I like Thunderbolts, they're awsome.

Eldar would win, they've been working at it for longer.