The most useless units: Imperial Guard

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**Samus_aran115**

IHEARTLARGEBLASTTEMPLATES wrote:I just have to say i LOVE my Primaris psyker (Jeff) In my 500 point list he never fails to zap the hell out of things. And I always seem to have good luck with him. i think he does quite well.

Go jeff! I love characters with normal names! My company commander is herbert, and my commissar is elmo.

**Lucid**

I usually don't disagree with anyone completely, but damn . . . the OP is wrong (just my opinion) Its a good conversatin starter though. maybe when i'm not at work i'll actually throw up some counterpoints.

**Amaya**

Sanguinis wrote:The other day I was skimming through the Imperial Guard Codex and something dawned on me, this army has some of the most useless units in the game. Now I'll be honest other armies in the game have useless units as well. Before I continue let me define a useless unit: A useless unit is either 1. A unit that is to many points for its function. 2. No one seems to use the unit in their army. 3. The unit does not fit into any of the themed armies of the Codex. For example Space Marines have Vanguard Veterans which are overpriced for what they do, Chaos have the Defiler which no one seems to use anymore, and Orkz have Meganobs which are just way to expensive similar to Vanguard Vets. So basically I'm gonna go down the list of units that I think are useless Imperial Guard units because to me it seems like Imperial Guard has the most of these. I am purely going from experience at my FLGS and on what I see and I think, if you have an opinion about my list PLEASE voice it I want to hear what you guys think because I would like to try some of these units if you guys can prove me wrong. Thank you.

1. Primaris Psyker-Takes up an HQ choice and all you get is some really fething bad Lightning Arc ability and Nightshroud which if your oppenent is smart he'll just ignore this bad unit and concentrate on the rest of your army.
2. Techpriest Enginseers-Way to many points that you could just add to another unit in your army not to mention that most Mech Guard armies have enough tanks that having a weapon destroyed or immobilized really isn't that bad.
3. Ministorum Priests-Is this a joke, trying to make Imperial Guard good at close combat?
4. Penal Legion Troopers-I can't see where they fit into an Imperial Guard army not to mention I had a guy use these on me and I promptly killed 30 of them in one turn. Personally I think their a cool unit, but useless.
5. Ogryns-Once again way to expensive for what they do though the multiple wounds does help a bit. Plus these guys are expensive models to buy unless you convert Ogres.
6. Ratlings-Used prevalently prior to 5th edition now you don't see them at all which is funny because of the new sniper rifle rules.
7. Rough Riders-Great first shock and awe unit can potentially wipe out a normal Terminator squad if given the charge but after that they are relegated to...well...doing absolutely nothing with their laspistols.
8. Storm Troopers-One of my favorite units in the game and I used to use them all throughout 4th edition but now they are WAY to overpriced and you can't even give them 3 meltaguns like Vets, forget it.
9. Leman Russ standard tank, Exterminator, and Vanquisher-No one uses these especially the standard tank, prior to 4th edition it used to be a great tank now its next to pointless when you have the Executioner and Demolisher.
10. Basalisk,Colossus, and Griffon-No one uses these tanks although once again prior to this edition the Basilisk was an awesome tank now with TLOS and the Medusa it just doesn't make sense anymore especially with AP3.
11. Deathstrike-Very awesome unit wish it was used more and had more than one shot, but mostly an Alpha Strike weapon that becomes pointless after its fired.
12. Valkyrie-I've heard its good at anti-infantry yet EVERY Guard army I have fought ALWAYS uses the Vendetta never the Valkyrie.

1. I agree
2. Meh, depends.
3. I agree.
4. Hit and miss.
5. I think they're pretty decent.
6. Meh.
7. Terrible.
8. They're ok at the very least.
9. Eh.
10. Yeh, Basilisks are dead.
11. I don't like it.
12. Valykries rock!

**eyebone**

I’m only going to place my input for two units

Rough riders - Defiantly a hit or miss but these guys have taken out tons of tanks and some bad ass monstrous creatures for me. For 55 points a squad they are a great choice, especially in cities of death for me.

Griffon mortar - its super cheap and lays down a great guaranty of taking out blob of troops. why would it be a bad choice???

**Scrabb**

There's a lot of units in the game OP.

**Gorskar.da.Lost**

Sanguinis wrote:
1. Primaris Psyker-Takes up an HQ choice and all you get is some really fething bad Lightning Arc ability and Nightshroud which if your oppenent is smart he'll just ignore this bad unit and concentrate on the rest of your army.

Agreed, it's very similar to the Weirdboy in many ways.

2. Techpriest Enginseers-Way to many points that you could just add to another unit in your army not to mention that most Mech Guard armies have enough tanks that having a weapon destroyed or immobilized really isn't that bad.

Again, possibly, but this time I think you're underestimating the usefulness of a techpriest. I personally wouldn't pass up the opportunity to fix a tank's main gun.

3. Ministorum Priests-Is this a joke, trying to make Imperial Guard good at close combat?

Stick one of these boys in a tooled up command squad and you have yourself a nasty CC unit. Or put one in a 50-man conscript unit and laugh yourself silly.

4. Penal Legion Troopers-I can't see where they fit into an Imperial Guard army not to mention I had a guy use these on me and I promptly killed 30 of them in one turn. Personally I think their a cool unit, but useless.

With the Stubborn rule, these chaps are good for holding objectives, or even taking them, given that they have some nasty offensive abilities too.

5. Ogryns-Once again way to expensive for what they do though the multiple wounds does help a bit. Plus these guys are expensive models to buy unless you convert Ogres.
6. Ratlings-Used prevalently prior to 5th edition now you don't see them at all which is funny because of the new sniper rifle rules.

Yeah, abhumans aren't great, to be fair. I wouldn't call them useless, though.

7. Rough Riders-Great first shock and awe unit can potentially wipe out a normal Terminator squad if given the charge but after that they are relegated to...well...doing absolutely nothing with their laspistols.

How exactly do you define "Useless?" You've managed to point out a very good use for the Rough Riders as small, suicidal anti-terminator units.

8. Storm Troopers-One of my favorite units in the game and I used to use them all throughout 4th edition but now they are WAY to overpriced and you can't even give them 3 meltaguns like Vets, forget it.

Underestimation, in my opinion. Stormtroopers have AP3 weapons and can pre-measure their shots. I'd argue they are somewhat better in the current codex.

9. Leman Russ standard tank, Exterminator, and Vanquisher-No one uses these especially the standard tank, prior to 4th edition it used to be a great tank now its next to pointless when you have the Executioner and Demolisher.

No, no, NO. The standard Russ is actually the Guard tank I face most commonly, simply because it's an excellent all-rounder. The Demolisher, whilst good, is not the main tank of choice for many due to it's small range, whereas the Executioner lacks the strength to properly deal with vehicles. The standard Russ can do for both Vehicles and infantry alike.

10. Basalisk,Colossus, and Griffon-No one uses these tanks although once again prior to this edition the Basilisk was an awesome tank now with TLOS and the Medusa it just doesn't make sense anymore especially with AP3.

What's wrong with AP3? That covers almost all troops in the game, so I really don't see how that's a disadvantage. In addition, the Colossus ignores cover, something the Medusa doesn't do.

11. Deathstrike-Very awesome unit wish it was used more and had more than one shot, but mostly an Alpha Strike weapon that becomes pointless after its fired.

Surely if it had more than one shot it would be supremely overpowered? However, I do agree that it's not the first choice for artillery, though it's fun to use in larger games.

12. Valkyrie-I've heard its good at anti-infantry yet EVERY Guard army I have fought ALWAYS uses the Vendetta never the Valkyrie.

Really? I've played three separate Valkyrie armies. I'm not sure how people taking the Vendetta is indicative of the Valkyrie's uselessness as a unit. Just a question, but which part of the FOC does the Vendetta take up?

**Hulksmash**

I run an MSU wolves list and the closest games I have against IG are ones that include Ogryns. Oddly 5 of those bastards can eventually eat their way thru 5-6 marines....Mulitple times....

**freddieyu1**

hmmm the OP is strangely quiet....

**Sanguinis**

Hey guys great opinions on everything except for a couple of you (I'll get to you in a minute).

First let me say I apologize for defining useless so lightly I guess what I meant to say was more what Polonius said and that is I meant that some of the guard units are useless because there are other Guard units that do it better such as Leman Russ Standard Variant, yes its a good tank having a Str 8 AP 3 pie plate is awesome, but my friend uses the Executioner which I'll agree is more points but for those more points you get 1 less Str but you get AP 2 which kicks the crap out of pretty much everything, I have seen him use the Executioner to take out everything from Tactical Squads to Terminator Squads something the Standard variant would have a harder time doing.

Freddieyu1 your right in one way and wrong in another, I have played a lot of IG players, I HAVE NOT played a lot of different lists most of the players I play play either Straight Mech Guard utilizing Vendettas, Executioners, Hydras, Manticores, Medusas, Chimeras, and Vets, or I play Blob Guard that use nothing but Infantry. So your right that I am not familiar with many of the different IG units but I guess I assumed that meant they weren't as good. I thank you for the tips you gave. (you were the most helpful)

Samus_aran115, and Terminus I should report you but I won't because I suspect you thought I was attacking the Guard codex which I was not, but lets keep it civil shall we most of us are adults and can at least act like it. Oh and Samus_aran115 I did not simply Google the Codex and pick out units I didn't like, I actually OWN the codex and play IG I play a Blob/Tank mix because I hate straight up Mech or Blob armies.

FYI-The reason I have been "Quiet" is I haven't been on in a while, playing to much 40K

.

**Ailaros**

so, if you're only looking at effectiveness, without regard to cost (or anything else, for that matter), then the only things worth taking are deathstrike missile launchers.

It's easy to get blinded by raw effectiveness and overlook points effectiveness. Certain things may kill more, but they pay a premium of more extra points tacked on that points they killed back. This kind of subtle problem leeches into a list and, in a fit of irony, actually reduces the overall damage output of your list as a whole, even if the individual units do more damage compared to individual ones of their peers.

LRBTs are still useful because they're cheap. In fact, the cost savings outstripps the loss of effectiveness, allowing you to spend more points elsewhere and making your list as a whole stronger.

As for the rest of the OP, it just seems to be opinion without either basis in experience or math or proper appeal to the meta. Basesless opinion isn't terribly convincing, thus all the backlash.

**H.B.M.C.**

The worst unit in the Codex is General Cruddance. Whenever you take him every single rule in your Codex changes, yet you really gain nothing out of it except it becomes more dull.

Doom of Cru'dda'nce in the Tyranid Codex is the same.

**Kingsley**

H.B.M.C. wrote:The worst unit in the Codex is General Cruddance. Whenever you take him every single rule in your Codex changes, yet you really gain nothing out of it except it becomes more dull.

Doom of Cru'dda'nce in the Tyranid Codex is the same.

You don't even play the game.

**ph34r**

I am interested in knowing how the metagame is doing Fetterkey!

**freddieyu1**

Sanguinis wrote:Hey guys great opinions on everything except for a couple of you (I'll get to you in a minute).

First let me say I apologize for defining useless so lightly I guess what I meant to say was more what Polonius said and that is I meant that some of the guard units are useless because there are other Guard units that do it better such as Leman Russ Standard Variant, yes its a good tank having a Str 8 AP 3 pie plate is awesome, but my friend uses the Executioner which I'll agree is more points but for those more points you get 1 less Str but you get AP 2 which kicks the crap out of pretty much everything, I have seen him use the Executioner to take out everything from Tactical Squads to Terminator Squads something the Standard variant would have a harder time doing.

Freddieyu1 your right in one way and wrong in another, I have played a lot of IG players, I HAVE NOT played a lot of different lists most of the players I play play either Straight Mech Guard utilizing Vendettas, Executioners, Hydras, Manticores, Medusas, Chimeras, and Vets, or I play Blob Guard that use nothing but Infantry. So your right that I am not familiar with many of the different IG units but I guess I assumed that meant they weren't as good. I thank you for the tips you gave. (you were the most helpful)

Samus_aran115, and Terminus I should report you but I won't because I suspect you thought I was attacking the Guard codex which I was not, but lets keep it civil shall we most of us are adults and can at least act like it. Oh and Samus_aran115 I did not simply Google the Codex and pick out units I didn't like, I actually OWN the codex and play IG I play a Blob/Tank mix because I hate straight up Mech or Blob armies.

FYI-The reason I have been "Quiet" is I haven't been on in a while, playing to much 40K .

It was my pleasure.....it would be a shame if you discount the other units since they can be useful DEPENDING on the circumstance and role you assign to them. It is important to point out that many of the other units work best when they function as part of of the entire army, and you make them do the role they were assigned too, WITHOUT overestimating what they can do.

And the IG dex can really have a lot of different successful builds....it's too bad a lot espouse only a specific list but then that's a result of narrow mindedness espoused over the internet.....so please do try the other units....

And play on, man, play on!!!

**Emperors Faithful**

Fetterkey wrote:
H.B.M.C. wrote:The worst unit in the Codex is General Cruddance. Whenever you take him every single rule in your Codex changes, yet you really gain nothing out of it except it becomes more dull.

Doom of Cru'dda'nce in the Tyranid Codex is the same.

You don't even play the game.

I don't know about Creed, but Doom of Malan-feth in a spore mine has made me cringe more than once.

**Frazzled**

Modquisition on. This thread has been reported and there are multiple flameout worthy posts.

This is a public warning. lets all get it back to Dakka Rule #1 now or the thread will be closed and suspensions given. Thank you.

**Jaon**

Your totally wrong bout the leman russ standard tank. Some tournament players run 3 standard tanks with no sponsons.

Basilisks are also not a useless unit. Just coz you havnt seen anyone use them doesnt mean their not used.

Look at their points cost? now their strength. add ordnance, the ability to fire while moving, and you have your self a nice tank. Anti-Meq is an added bonus.

**Kingsley**

Emperors Faithful wrote:
Fetterkey wrote:
H.B.M.C. wrote:The worst unit in the Codex is General Cruddance. Whenever you take him every single rule in your Codex changes, yet you really gain nothing out of it except it becomes more dull.

Doom of Cru'dda'nce in the Tyranid Codex is the same.

You don't even play the game.

I don't know about Creed, but Doom of Malan-feth in a spore mine has made me cringe more than once.

He wasn't talking about actual in-game units, he was insulting Robin Cruddace, the author of the Imperial Guard and Tyranid Codices.

**Emperors Faithful**

Oh. Why are the IG and Tyranid codices worse than...well every other 5th edition codex?

**Terminus**

Because HBMC loves to bitch and moan?

**Melissia**

Polonius wrote:it's far too generalist

You act like this is a bad thing.

It can kill light/medium vehicles AND any non-terminator infantry with equal ease.

Three squads of 2 is less than 1000 points. If you're really worried about transports, add in some autocannon spamming infantry platoons to get rid of them.

I mean duh. Guard can have so many damn autocannons that you can wipe out all transports the enemy army on turn one with relative ease.

**ChrisWWII**

Being generalist is generally considered a good thing, because it'll have some use no matter who you come up against. Up against Marines? AP3 slaughters 'em. Up against swarm? Large Blast Template + Heavy Bolter does heavy damage? Mech? As Melissia said...S8 = dead transports. No matter who you fight, the LRBT will have some use. Yes, the other variants will do more damage in their narrow field of speciality, but being able to take on anything is what a good take all comers list makes.

So yes, is a LR gonna be good at killing lots of Land Raiders? No. But can it do almost anything else well? Hell yeah.

**freddieyu1**

a LRBT with a hull lascannon CAN kill a LR and monolith...the odds are of course lower than other options but it CAN do it with 1 good shot..thus I like this particular config because it is a threat that can affect practically anything in the game at range, and that's good enough in my book....

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Emperors Faithful wrote:Oh. Why are the IG and Tyranid codices worse than...well every other 5th edition codex?

They are??? Really????

**erwos**

I had to admit, I had a real WTF moment when I read the OP trying to tell me how the LRBT and non-Medusa artillery was useless.

The LRBT has long range and a hard-hitting ordnance weapon. It'll pop AV12 tanks with some reliability. It'll kill MEQs quite nicely. It's cheap. It's really hard to call that useless.

The Griffon and Colossus obviously have their uses. I tend to think the Basilisk is a bit more so-so in general usage, but it shines on large tables.

Heck, there's very little _really_ useless stuff in the codex; the bulk of that stuff is simply overcosted.

**Henners91**

I use a Vanquisher... it's badass.

**ChrisWWII**

erwos wrote:I had to admit, I had a real WTF moment when I read the OP trying to tell me how the LRBT and non-Medusa artillery was useless.

The LRBT has long range and a hard-hitting ordnance weapon. It'll pop AV12 tanks with some reliability. It'll kill MEQs quite nicely. It's cheap. It's really hard to call that useless.

The Griffon and Colossus obviously have their uses. I tend to think the Basilisk is a bit more so-so in general usage, but it shines on large tables.

Heck, there's very little _really_ useless stuff in the codex; the bulk of that stuff is simply overcosted.

Exactly, same here. More importantly, he didn't define 'useless'...nothing is 'useless', but obviously the situations where you need that Punisher are vastly outweighed by the times when it's a useless chunk of points. But yeah...the LRBT is useless because it's ok against most things? THe

? I mean seriously?

I happen to like the Basilisk. Yeah, it's outshined by most other things, but it's also got: a) a fething huge range on big tables b) S9 AP3? Against vehicles, essentially a lascannon shot, that will also kill any Marines standing near their metal box. Yeah, some things are better in diff situations, but I sill find the Basilisk a very nice all rounder unit.

**Doctadeth**

1. Primaris Psyker- Try having a full unit of these in your army, scary.

2. Techpriest Enginseers- Just making goood use of tank points, I use one in my imp guard, and have repaired 3/4 tanks ingame.
3. Ministorum Priests- Morale, and counterattacking enemy units
4. Penal Legion Troopers- Exactly what you said, they are an infantry SOAK.
5. Ogryns-haven't used ogryns, but I'd use them in a skirmish capacity.
6. Ratlings- I had one unit of these pin me in an apocalypse game. Very annoying.
7. Rough Riders-Essentially what you say, oh and close combat.
8. Storm Troopers-hellguns awesomely
9. Leman Russ standard tank - Use pask on the vanquisher, and with the exterminator....strength 7, AP 4 4 shot weapon with rerolls. I actually did quite a lot of damage with one of these,
10. Basalisk,Colossus, and Griffon- Medusa is a siege unit, basalisk is a nice long ranged weapon.
11. Deathstrike- Tis a fear weapon more than anything. One of mine survived over 2000 points of firepower including another deathstrike.
12. Valkyrie- Never used it. Don't plan to really.

**don_mondo**

Sanguinis wrote:
1. Primaris Psyker-.
2. Techpriest Enginseers-
3. Ministorum Priests-
4. Penal Legion Troopers-.
5. Ogryns-
6. Ratlings-
7. Rough Riders-.
8. Storm Troopers-.
9. Leman Russ standard tank, Exterminator, and Vanquisher-.
10. Basalisk,Colossus, and Griffon-.
11. Deathstrike-.
12. Valkyrie-.

Let's see, I'll agree that 1, 3, 4, and 11 are pretty much useless.
2, 5, 8 are overpriced. Never used Stormtroopers back in the prvious codex either, since vets could do everything they could do and do it better.

However................
I still like and use Ratlings. Not on a regular basis, but pull them out every once in a while. They've always done fairly well.
Rough Riders are good for their price, they'd have to be double that for permanent lances.
Standard Leman Russ is still a great bargain at it's price, and they're frequently on the table around here. Me, I use the Vanquisher or Exterminator with Pask in almost every game 2K or higher.
Bassie, Colossus, Griffon. My favorite is the Colossus and it's the first Hevavy Support slot I fill in almost every list.
Valkyrie, yeah, more field Vendettas than Valks, but they're still out there and they're still pretty good.

**Henners91**

@Doctadeath

A Primaris Psyker isn't a Sanctioned Psyker, it's an HQ choice.

**Gorskar.da.Lost**

ChrisWWII wrote:Being generalist is generally considered a good thing, because it'll have some use no matter who you come up against. Up against Marines? AP3 slaughters 'em. Up against swarm? Large Blast Template + Heavy Bolter does heavy damage? Mech? As Melissia said...S8 = dead transports. No matter who you fight, the LRBT will have some use. Yes, the other variants will do more damage in their narrow field of speciality, but being able to take on anything is what a good take all comers list makes.

So yes, is a LR gonna be good at killing lots of Land Raiders? No. But can it do almost anything else well? Hell yeah.

it's interesting to note that quite a few people, including me earlier, have stood up for the Russ. After all, as they've said, the others may be good in their area of expertise (the Executioner as a troop killer and Demolisher as a close-range support tank) but they just don't match the all-round reliability of the standard Russ.