The Dark Eldar Wager

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**poipo32**

yakface wrote:I voted that I lost the bet...

But oh so close.

However, the point of the bet (for me) wasn't to win money or to 'be right' but rather to emphasize the point that I knew without a shadow of a doubt that Dark Eldar were not being 'squatted' but rather that real work was being done on the project.

Yes, I did have some inside information (if you want to call it that), but my point was also that Games Workshop had publicly disclosed exactly who was working on the project (Jes sculpting and Phil writing the codex).

Obviously what was surprising to me was how long it took for the information that I saw over 2 years ago to actually translate into a GW release. The length of time it takes GW to create a complete line of miniatures can obviously be very, very lengthy...even longer than I considered possible. Based on what I saw, I thought they'd be out easily within a 2 year time period and clearly I was mistaken in that regard.

However, even though I lost the bet, the point of my participating in that bet was to hopefully convince some people that DE were indeed on their way, and I do think that I succeeded in that fact, so I don't really regret losing at all.

So when do we meet up to exchange the ceremonial dollar? Or would you just like the (roughly) 80 cents you'll get once paypal takes their chunk if we do it through paypal?

Anyway, congrats on the win.

That's a real gentleman.

**MeanGreenStompa**

JohnHwangDD wrote:

As I understood the challenge, Yakface meant that... not simply that...
My personal take is that...whereas I win under the Wording ...
...I can't possibly imagine that...
...That the bet actually...
I suspect that Jon was...

You're wriggling... concede sir, now...

yakface wrote:

Nice comeback.

**Sidstyler**

Athera wrote:Both of you give $1 to some guy that's out on the street. He needs it more.

Then you can get back to barking about dumb stuff on the internet.

This.

**Erasoketa**

I would call it a draw.

The new minis and the new codex are not in the shelves still, but I've been able to pre-order them, and therefore pay for them.

**notprop**

Well said Yakface and JohnHwangDD, and who said Dakka was going down hill; Good thread!

I concur with Yak, $1 to be paid but additionally in the spirit of the bet JohnHwangDD should prehaps use his creative skills to mark the occassion and present a commemorative gift of a scrapping human slave offering fealty to his Dark Eldar master vignette.

**Waaagh_Gonads**

yakface wrote:

Obviously what was surprising to me was how long it took for the information that I saw over 2 years ago to actually translate into a GW release. The length of time it takes GW to create a complete line of miniatures can obviously be very, very lengthy...even longer than I considered possible. Based on what I saw, I thought they'd be out easily within a 2 year time period and clearly I was mistaken in that regard.

When I was living in the UK in Jervis took me (and 3 Americans) on a tour of the studio the day before the 2000 40KUKGT.
It was in late April and on the tour we saw the concept posters for the tau, the c'tan and a revamp of necrons. Just random pics from sci fi, sketches and notes. Nothing at all definitive (Tau was spelt 'Tao')

The Tau were release October 2001
The Necrons rereleased August 2002
The C'tan were rolled into necrons, I assume as an army of energy based warriors would be a bugger of an army to model....

So long, long development is the norm. Which is why I'm always shocked at how poorly written/thought out the rules and army lists are.

**Athera**

Waaagh_Gonads wrote:

So long, long development is the norm. Which is why I'm always shocked at how poorly written/thought out the rules and army lists are.

When you stop to remember that "Warhammer World", which just happens to be part of the home base, just happens to have a pub on premise, the idea of poorly written/thought out rules is no longer all that shocking.

**RiTides**

I voted neither, because this seems to me to be an instance not quite covered under the initial agreement.

Namely, a codex / models etc are confirmed and even available to order

but at the same time, they're not going to be in anyone's hands by the 10th.

So I think it's a push, but it was cool to see it come down to the wire like this regardless

**Osbad**

Waaagh_Gonads wrote:So long, long development is the norm. Which is why I'm always shocked at how poorly written/thought out the rules and army lists are.

Having listened to a couple of podcast interviews with Alessio and Gav, I conclude that a lot of the problems with Codices/Army books is actually BECAUSE OF, not DESPITE the length of time involved in a release. Things start out being a good idea, but several codices/army books get released in the meantime which throws out the original balance and creates a whole new set of problems. Or stuff gets put into a book because of something that ends up not getting put into another. etc., etc. Some of these are spotted in time for release date, some of them are not.

The sheer volume and complexity of GW's release schedule makes keeping track of changes in any work in progress a big problem in and of itself.

If GW could conceive and give birth to a new codex/army book within a six-week window then a lot of the problems wouldn't actually have had time to appear in the first place.

Of course you'd still think they'd spot the typos...

**Shibboleth02**

The fact that you even opened a thread to discuss this speaks volumes about your character.

Given the intensity with which you have stated that the Dark Eldar are never going to show up, the gentleman thing to do would be to send Yakface a nice letter or card with the money in it, and post a thread letting everyone know you did just that.

It's not that big of a deal, but to argue over whether you won is pretty tasteless. Equivocating over days here is petty. Just suck it up, send the card, and be done with that.

it's just toy soldiers for gods sake.

BTW- Since you posted it and asked from the community at large:

" If DE don't get any Codex before October 10, 2010 (10/10/10), you pay me $1 (one) dollar."

if you really want to go into technicalities, the models and book were available for purchase via pre-order on Oct 5th. There's a Codex, available for purchase, before the date of Oct 10, 2010.

**Thanatos_elNyx**

RAW: I would say JHDD is the winner
RAI: Yakface FTW!

**RiTides**

I think Thanatos has nailed it on the head

**JohnHwangDD**

yakface wrote:I voted that I lost the bet...

But oh so close.

However, the point of the bet (for me) wasn't to win money or to 'be right' but rather to emphasize the point that I knew without a shadow of a doubt that Dark Eldar were not being 'squatted' but rather that real work was being done on the project.

Yes, I did have some inside information (if you want to call it that), but my point was also that Games Workshop had publicly disclosed exactly who was working on the project (Jes sculpting and Phil writing the codex).

Obviously what was surprising to me was how long it took for the information that I saw over 2 years ago to actually translate into a GW release. The length of time it takes GW to create a complete line of miniatures can obviously be very, very lengthy...even longer than I considered possible. Based on what I saw, I thought they'd be out easily within a 2 year time period and clearly I was mistaken in that regard.

However, even though I lost the bet, the point of my participating in that bet was to hopefully convince some people that DE were indeed on their way, and I do think that I succeeded in that fact, so I don't really regret losing at all.

So when do we meet up to exchange the ceremonial dollar? Or would you just like the (roughly) 80 cents you'll get once paypal takes their chunk if we do it through paypal?

Anyway, congrats on the win.

Thanks very much for your comments in the reply.

I'd be happy to meet up locally on the 10th, or release date, your choice.

Also, I'd be equally happy to pay *you* a dollar (or paypal 60 cents) in the spirit of the wager.

And congrats on seeing the project through.

:hattip:

**thehod**

I say a Draw but since neither of you have won the bed, I suggest donating the money you were going to bet to a charity.

How about to the Army Emergency Relief or Veterans of Foreign Wars. It doesnt have to be these charities but you get the idea.

**syanticraven**

Released does not necessarily mean to purchase. It could mean released to the public view.

**JohnHwangDD**

LittleLeadMen wrote:The fact that you even opened a thread to discuss this speaks volumes about your character.

Yeah, because it'd be so much better if this particular series of rather specific back-and-forth posts were spread across the various DE threads...

I though it'd be easier on the Mods and everybody else who actually cared.

Sorry it's not to your liking,

/John

**Shibboleth02**

I think you missed my point completely. there's literally no need for the thread. It shouldn't have existed across multiple DE threads, nor even here.

You should have just sent the guy a card and been done with it. That you would approach the Dakka Dakka community for some sort of validation over a bet is bizarre, particularly when you were so vocal that this day would never happen. It comes across as petty.

**ceorron**

JohnHwangDD won. He set out a very specific set of rules stating clearly that he would win the wager if the codex was not released before october this year. It wasn't released before october this year therefore he must have one.

Although I see peoples points about Yakface winning in spirit, in spirit was not the rules he agreed by.

Edit

LittleLeadMen wrote:I think you missed my point completely. there's literally no need for the thread. It shouldn't have existed across multiple DE threads, nor even here.

You should have just sent the guy a card and been done with it. That you would approach the Dakka Dakka community for some sort of validation over a bet is bizarre, particularly when you were so vocal that this day would never happen. It comes across as petty.

Sorry LittleLeadMen I'm finding you petty for pointing this out. Let them have thier bet, it is only for one dollar. In the spirit of how this has been put out I find you in a saw mood.

This bet is all about DakkaDakka. It was mostly put out as a way of Jakface disproving the naysayers of the coming Dark Eldar release of which I was one. I think you failed to understand his point entirely and I think you did it deliberatly.

**Jackal**

Lead - If it bothers you soo much, stop reading.
DD made a thread to save others being de-railed.
Nothing wrong with that.

I say draw.
Kind of caught in limbo with this one.

**Manchu**

From a lawyer's perspective, John certainly won. From a gamer's perspective we all won. As both a lawyer and a gamer (but not a rules lawyer), I prefer to emphasize the latter result. What I propose thererfore is that John allows Yakface to forgo paying the wager as such. Although Yak may have won according to one interpretation of the "spirit" of the bet, I do not think that John is obliged to pay him anything at all. What I would propose is that John pay Dakka (notably, not Yak) twenty four American dollars and that Yakface and Legoburner in turn add the letters "DCM" below his username and award to him all the privileges associated with said elevation (to be renewable in annual payments of twenty five American dollars barring future wagers). To me, this better exemplifies the true spirit of the bet--i.e., that all gamers win in the scenario as it in fact has occurred/is occurring.

**JohnHwangDD**

LittleLeadMen wrote:I think you missed my point completely. there's literally no need for the thread. It shouldn't have existed across multiple DE threads, nor even here.

You should have just sent the guy a card and been done with it.

That you would approach the Dakka Dakka community for some sort of validation over a bet is bizarre, particularly when you were so vocal that this day would never happen.

And you've missed mine. The wager has *already* come up multiple times in the other DE threads, by various Buttinskis on Dakka who have an public interest in what might otherwise be more private. Ergo, there's a need for the thread to consolidate things.

If it were up to me, I'd have been happy to conclude this directly, but with multiple others asking the question and wanting to comment in various DE threads, I figured it's better to simply create the separate thread. Again, I'm sorry that this doesn't meet your preferences.

I really don't need any validation, and certainly not over a dollar. The Dakka community was already poking at it, and apparently, that day is coming next month.

**Shibboleth02**

There's absolutely no need to "consolidate things". This is your private wager, and should have been handled as such. There is no need to "address" anyone, nor anything in a public manner over a wager.

Close the thread, call each other, and do whatever you wish with one another. But stop dragging this into some sort of public accounting or exhibition when there's literally no need for it.

Please don't waste the Dakka community's time with your personal need for any sort of validation on a wager. it's this kind of ridiculous posturing about things like personal bets that has coarsened and deteriorated the overall quality of discourse on this forum. That you don't recognize that your own posts here on Dakka, from consistently abrasive tone to content, have been a contributing factor to the overall coarsening of Dakka Dakka is surprising. Your posting of this thread is a great example of this.

It's really simple: if two gentlemen make a wager, then settle it as gentleman between yourselves. That you can't recognize that strikes me as odd.

It's exactly your kind of ridiculous bickering over things like wagers on toy soldiers that has turned off many casual readers and/or posters to this site.

**Kroothawk**

@LittleLeadMen: Maybe you haven't read the previous and current DE threads, but as one of the "Buttinskis" I can asure you that there actually IS a public interest since the beginning in this bet. And all those people interested in the outcome are gathered in this thread. If you have a problem with this thread, just leave it and stop trolling.

@Osbad: This release is a bit different from all others in recent times. Jes had no time schedule for resculpting this complete range. He was given all time he needed to make it awesome. And he did. Took a bit longer than expected.

@Yakface: If you want to admit a loss, send the money quickly: JohnHwangDD wants to buy a DE Codex before the 10th October

**Kilkrazy**

Yakface gracefully conceded on the first page.

Automatically Appended Next Post:
I think we've probably taken this thread as far as it can go.