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Grey Templar wrote:Never heard of Dune.


are we sure 40k didn't come first? it's been around for a good 30 years.

EPIC FAIL!!!! LOL!!!


Sorry your either making a joke or you need to read more......

An empire of men (call it the Imperium of Man) and laserguns aren't exactly exclusive enough features to say GW took this idea from Dune.

It is like saying "Ooh, that movie has men who are in a kingdom and magic swords and monsters, they must have been influenced by *insert name here* in a fantasy setting".

Most sci-fi settings have (large) empires and futuristic weapons. Nobody is ripping off anybody really, so this whole discussion is a bit useless unless Dune has some actual exclusive features GW incorporated into their background.

As one of the previous posters said, there are undeniable similarities in feel and spirit of the universe. But 40k is no more a rip off from Dune than every fantasy book/setting out there is a rip off from LotR. It had to start somewhere, I doubt most people posting here dislike the fact that 40k pays homage to the Dune. In fact, I think therein lies much of its charm.

TBD wrote:An empire of men (call it the Imperium of Man) and laserguns aren't exactly exclusive enough features to say GW took this idea from Dune.

It is like saying "Ooh, that movie has men who are in a kingdom and magic swords and monsters, they must have been influenced by *insert name here* in a fantasy setting".

Most sci-fi settings have (large) empires and futuristic weapons. Nobody is ripping off anybody really, so this whole discussion is a bit useless unless Dune has some actual exclusive features GW incorporated into their background.

Yes but it is obvious that 40k has Dune influences. This thread is about INFLUENCES, not rip offs(why the is everyone misinterpreting that? I made it quite clear). And Frank Herbert invented the term "Lasgun", so 40k referenced that quite obviously.

I actually like the fact that 40k has dune influences. Dune is awesome.

And for exclusive features, there are Navigators. Yeah blah blah no spice in 40k, but it's still a pretty significant reference.

The whole eldar farseer concept always reminded me of the Kwisatz Haderach, and the way the Bene Gesserit coven try to manipulate the future and the world around them wrapped in that creepy and inscrutable mysticism strikes me as the wicked modus operandi of eldar seers . Definitely more than a coincidence.

God-emperor


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Grey Templar wrote:Never heard of Dune.


are we sure 40k didn't come first? it's been around for a good 30 years.


you wouldn't belive how many people see my 40k figures and say that they copied Starcraft when it was the other way around

Dune is a bit older...like it came out in the 60's older

Retribution wrote:God-emperor


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Grey Templar wrote:Never heard of Dune.


are we sure 40k didn't come first? it's been around for a good 30 years.


you wouldn't belive how many people see my 40k figures and say that they copied Starcraft when it was the other way around

Dune is a bit older...like it came out in the 60's older

thank you


i have never heard of Dune before this moment, but i guess i will have to go look for this proto-40k story line

Grey Templar wrote:i have never heard of Dune before this moment, but i guess i will have to go look for this proto-40k story line

Whatever you do, do not, and I repeat do not! buy the DVD of the movie.

It's the worst piece of crap you'll ever see on your tv screen and a complete waste of the $3,- or whatever you'd pay for it.

Btw I still fail to see the exclusive Dune influences in 40K. Navigators could be maybe perhaps be one, but other than that... ?

There is no way lasguns can be contributed to Frank Herbert because the idea of a lasergun in several shapes and forms already excisted way before this guy was even born. I think it first popped up in the 1890s.

TBD wrote:Btw I still fail to see the exclusive Dune influences in 40K. Navigators could be maybe perhaps be one, but other than that... ?

The prohibitions on AI are almost a direct quote from the Butlerian Jihad's prohibitions on AI, same with the breeding restrictions.

There is no way lasguns can be contributed to Frank Herbert because the idea of a lasergun in several shapes and forms already excisted way before this guy was even born. I think it first popped up in the 1890s.

The term "lasgun" came from Dune, cite a usage of it anywhere before 1965 if you think Herbert didn't invent it. No one is saying that the concept of a "laser gun" came from dune, we're saying that the specific word "lasgun" came from Dune. BTW, the theoretical concept behind lasers was invented in 1917 by Einstein, no one had the idea of a laser gun before that. People might have had heat rays or blasters or some such, but no one was going to talk about a laser gun before the term "laser" was invented.

Gholam are Ghola.

M.

Grey Templar wrote:Never heard of Dune.


are we sure 40k didn't come first? it's been around for a good 30 years.


you wouldn't belive how many people see my 40k figures and say that they copied Starcraft when it was the other way around

Very true . I remember when I used to play Diablo 2 at LAN parties a friend of mine said that dungeons and dragons completely ripped it off .

But yes Dune is a far bit older. The Dark gothic and near steampunk feel of it is definitely a close tie between the two.

i instictively got s hold of dune to inspire me for archetectural references when i started creating Praxus (look @ sig) the idea of imperials 18th centurary royal family in a far future grim dark world is exactly how i imagine elemants of 40k especialy battlefleet gothic the navigator families and planetary governors.ADVERTISEMENT as you will see in my upcomming three part tale of love and innoce lost in the grimdark world of 40k end eadvertisement lol

BearersOfSalvation wrote:

There is no way lasguns can be contributed to Frank Herbert because the idea of a lasergun in several shapes and forms already excisted way before this guy was even born. I think it first popped up in the 1890s.

The term "lasgun" came from Dune, cite a usage of it anywhere before 1965 if you think Herbert didn't invent it. No one is saying that the concept of a "laser gun" came from dune, we're saying that the specific word "lasgun" came from Dune. BTW, the theoretical concept behind lasers was invented in 1917 by Einstein, no one had the idea of a laser gun before that. People might have had heat rays or blasters or some such, but no one was going to talk about a laser gun before the term "laser" was invented.

Honestly, who gives a feth about it being called "lasergun" or "lasgun"? It's clearly the exact same thing, only the bastardization of the word.

If someone wrote a book and called his rocket launcher a "zooka" instead of a "bazooka", and he was the first one to use "zooka", would that be meaningful in any way besides a triviality?

Similarly, I view a lasergun as an extension of heat rays, etc, just another way to call a similar concept. That is what I meant. Concept, not the exact name. War of the worlds was the first book to feature such a weapon as far as I know.

TBD wrote:
Whatever you do, do not, and I repeat do not! buy the DVD of the movie.

It's the worst piece of crap you'll ever see on your tv screen and a complete waste of the $3,- or whatever you'd pay for it.

Are you talking about the 1984 release or the 2000 tv mini-series? Although both diverged from the book, I thought the cinematography from the 1984 was way better.


My two cents about the navigator reference: although there are some similarities between 40K's version and Dune's version, I would rather ride in the Dune's version. They travelled faster (how can you travel faster than folding space?) and was much safer (as I reember it).

Pretty much all space opera after Dune's publication was influenced by Dune, so it's not that surprising.

TBD wrote:Honestly, who gives a feth about it being called "lasergun" or "lasgun"? It's clearly the exact same thing, only the bastardization of the word.

Anyone who is interested in "Dune influences in 40k", which happens to be what the thread is about. Lasgun is a specific term, invented by a specific author, sorry if it disturbs you to know who coined a specific term. You seem angry and are aggressively defending your ignorance, so just pretend that no one is interested in discussing what this thread is about if it makes you feel like an internet strongman.

If someone wrote a book and called his rocket launcher a "zooka" instead of a "bazooka", and he was the first one to use "zooka", would that be meaningful in any way besides a triviality?

If Frank called a rocket launcher a rolauncher, then someone else later made a game with a rolauncher, then that would be an indication that the game drew inspiration from Frank, since Frank was the first one to use rolauncher. "zooka" was a common abbreviation for bazooka, and so doesn't tie back to a specific author the way the term 'lasgun' ties back to Herbert. It's meaningful when discussing Dune influences in 40k, which despite your wildly misplaced anger is what this thread is for discussing.

I prefer Red Dwarf's "Bazookoids". Rolls off the tongue much better

M.

But I bet i can find some one that has had just as if not more influence on 40K than Frank Herbert, the awesomeness that is Isaac Asimov.

http://www.mania.com/top-15-greatest-science-fiction-writers-alltime_article_112611.html
"The Russian-born Asimov was not only a science fiction writer but also a well-regarded scientist. He earned a Ph.D. in biochemistry from Columbia University. Asimov was noted nearly as much for his non-fiction as his fiction. His “Foundation” trilogy in the 1950s is regarded by many as the greatest science fiction series ever written. The series influenced everything from A Hitchhiker’s Guide to the Galaxy, to Star Wars, The Warhammer 40,000 universe, even to the animated TV Show, Futurama. Warner Bros. is currently developing the series for film. “I, Robot”, actually a collection of stories rather than a novel, introduced Asimov’s famous Three Laws of Robotics. Asimov won seven Hugo awards including Best novel for “The Gods Themselves” and Best Novelette for “The Bicentennial Man”. He also won three Nebula awards."

He was probably the first to create galaxy spraling distopias...or at the lest setting the grimdark tone of 40K

IntX wrote:

TBD wrote:
Whatever you do, do not, and I repeat do not! buy the DVD of the movie.

It's the worst piece of crap you'll ever see on your tv screen and a complete waste of the $3,- or whatever you'd pay for it.

Are you talking about the 1984 release or the 2000 tv mini-series? Although both diverged from the book, I thought the cinematography from the 1984 was way better.


).

Dune in 1984 was split into 3 versions.
1. USA film release
2. european release
3. TV release for the states.
im very happy i have the Europa version, as the cuts in both USA versions make the film just as TDB says. crap. however the 3+ hour version rocks. (europa)

Isaac Asimov influenced everything sci fi that came after him.
top writer reading one of his right now along with pk dick who also has influenced the last 30 years sci fi ,but if you can say p k dick paticularly inspired cyberpunk along with william gibson , i dont think you can say the same for assimov directly inspiring a grimdark sci fi setting, especially since 40k was not grimdark at the start. star trek , and maybe star wars , even though they are not dystopian by any stretch of the imagination. his work IS dystopian, very much like orwell and aldous huxley's brave new world, but not really grimdark , i personnely think the grimdark setting is due to the influence of one man, John blanche, he is the artistic director and his vision is dark. He may well have read most sci fi writers. but the dark vision is unmistakedbly his. imo

I prefer Heinlein to Asimov. not that that has anything to do with the topic....

The interesting thing is that Lynch probably shot the entire book. Years ago I picked up a Dune storybook thing for kids, filled with stills from the film. And one of the shots was of Paul in the sietch, not wearing a stillsuit, lying down with eyes closed and Chani looking over him. That wasn't in the theatrical film or the 2-part TV version.

This told me two things. One, there was sietch action filmed beyond Paul and Chani making out as the narrator explains that "years pass." Two, it suggests that the book version of Paul taking the Water of Life was probably shot and then discarded for the more dramatic but cheesy "swaying worms" scene. Might have been interesting to see what would have been the result if they'd let Lynch film and cut it as two 2-hour films.

BUT having said that, weirding modules, making it rain, and a number of other points in the movie are *beyond dumb.* Lynch supposedly invented the weirding modules because he didn't want to see "kung fun in the desert," but I think any director with some action chops could have directed some great Fremen desert ambushes, etc. I like Lynch and he had an interesting vision, but I can't give Dune my thumbs-up no matter what version we're talking about. It just isn't good filmmaking or a good adaptation of the source material.

The TV series -- budget cramped as it was -- was at least a better representation of the book. It brought in important themes -- say ecology -- that were entirely missing in Lynch's film.

i agree the film is at best a fantasticly beautifull set/sets with some dodgy acting and the worst butcherers hack job of an edit you could probabaly find in any movie, its chopped up so bad , and there is so many versions i dont know what i am supposed to be watching at any one moment, but as gorgon said lynch is a visionairy director and at least he attempted the book, which i havent read btw, lavish sets gorgeous costumes and it was the darkest sci fi i had seen when i first saw it.

Book is pretty good, but it lacks the wiz-bang gadget talk that seem to have become what people expect from sci fi. Stay off what ever his son has written.

M.

Hawkins wrote:

IntX wrote:

TBD wrote:
Whatever you do, do not, and I repeat do not! buy the DVD of the movie.

It's the worst piece of crap you'll ever see on your tv screen and a complete waste of the $3,- or whatever you'd pay for it.

Are you talking about the 1984 release or the 2000 tv mini-series? Although both diverged from the book, I thought the cinematography from the 1984 was way better.


).

Dune in 1984 was split into 3 versions.
1. USA film release
2. european release
3. TV release for the states.
im very happy i have the Europa version, as the cuts in both USA versions make the film just as TDB says. crap. however the 3+ hour version rocks. (europa)

Love the 3+ hour version. Great for having a few friends over on a weekend who appreciate their sci fi to watch.

I was thinking about this the other day. Someone pointed earlier in the discussion that 40k would be more of a spiritual successor to dune than anything else. But I think it would be interesting to trace the lineage of influences that inspired 40k. Dune is pretty easy to make a connection with its terminology and the different chapter houses all competing for power. (Maybe a comparison between the bene geserit and the inquisition) I think the Asimov's Foundation series has a lot to do with it. In those books humanity is a large spread out mess, though if i remember right they unite through commerce instead of war, but later in the series there is a warlord that tries to unite humanity. Lastly I think that Heinlein's books Star Ship troopers had a pretty big impact, if only for the fact it coined the phrase "Space Marines". Did I miss anything?

Also I love the David Lynch movie.

What you say certaintly is true.

BTW: you might want to check the date of the last post before you post in a thread. this one was a month old and resurrecting old threads is called Threadomancy(and is frowned upon) it isn't too serious as some(i saw 7 years once), but keep it in mind as people don't like old threads they posted in being moved to the top of their subscribed threads.

ChaosGalvatron wrote:While it seems that 40k had lots of little influences Dune never seemed to be a major one to me.
The lasguns in 40k are nothing like the ones in dune.
The dune imperium is more of a byzantine empire, the 40k one is more medieval/western europe.

I'd say its the other way around, actually - the Byzantine empire and the IoM in 40k are nearly synonymous. And its pretty clear that the Dune universe is directly stylized off the Holy Roman Empire.

40k is completely Gothic in it's design.


Gothic =/= Byzantine.


Gothic = Holy Roman Empire.

Gothic architecture =/= Gothic culture

1) Main figure is a holy God Emperor: this has no parallel in the west, but in the Byzantine Empire, the Emperor was indeed the final religious and political authority - even the Patriarch is secondary. This is essentially the case the 40k, because the ecclesiarch certainly has no authority even remotely resembling the dominance the Pope had over western Christianity and politics. He's far more similar to his orthodox counter part. Let us remember that the Holy Roman Emperors had no religious authority what so ever, let alone being adored as the direct conduit to divinity on Earth as his Byzantine counter part was. You tell me which one more accurately describes the situation of a God-Emperor. ALL answer to the God emperor, should he magically awaken - no entity in western Europe could claim that kind of power, while the Byzantine basileus certainly could.

2) The military of the Imperium is split between three main forces, all independent of each other: a local army of militia and slightly better, and somewhat more mobile regional regiments whose goal was to offer a speed bump to invaders, a mobile elite shock army whose job it was to actually crush invaders and act as the vanguard for (re)conquest, and the navy which facilitated travel, and other wise did its whole navel engagement thing separate of the other two entities. This is the EXACT parallel with the Tagmata and Thematic army organization of the Byzantine empire, and has no direct correlation in western Europe where feudal levies (such as those depicted in Dune) were all the rage.

3)The Imperium is besieged at all sides, and is constantly waging wars of re-conquest over lost territories, conquering territories not conquered before, and losing territory on other fronts constantly - all of it in the shadow of a legacy of unparalleled glory - another perfect description of the Byzantine empire, and its direct legacy from the Romans.

4)The Imperium is a centralized state in theory - it has a well defined capital of major galactic political, economic, cultural and religious importance, but is still federated out in a quasi-feudal system that sees limited power for local families and rulers, but the movers and shakers are appointed by those in charge at the capital. Replace galactic with world, and that is the perfect description of Constantinople - another particular which western Europe during the time has no parallel with, due to its fragmentation even in the more 'centralized' states- equating Terra with either Rome or Jerusalem leaves the analogy wanting. But Constantinople? Perfect fit.

5) Let us not forget the incredible amounts of bureaucracy in the IoM - which can only be accurately described by the word 'Byzantine" in the words form as an adjective Certainly you don't see that kind of stuff in the feudal west - but the legacy of convoluted laws and record keeping lived on in the east, certainly.

I could go on, but I have to shake this diversion and get back to report writing.

Suffice to say, just because they call it 'Gothic" doesnt mean much of anything - because the IoM bears a striking resemblance to the Byzantine empire, while the Dune universe, with its noble-family centric setting, its great division of 3 powers, and the landsraad council find their parallels in Western Feudalism.