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Ravenous D wrote:You probably cant find it because it was back when Blizzard wasnt blizzard and long before the internet.

Im talking before the rock and roll racing days of 1993 when blizzard was called Silicon & Synapse.

GW went to them to make an game much like the horrible GW computer games of old and then pulled out for whatever reason (most likely money). This left Silicon and Synapse a bucket of ideas work already done for a Fantasy RTS and dungeon crawler (was made to be warhammer quest) and the beginings of starcraft.

Then in 1994 the now Blizzard makes Warcraft: Orcs and Humans.

I never think Blizzard ripped GW off, GW screwed themselves by giving an new company tons of ideas and making them developing it then bailing on them. GW, as usual, shot themselves in the foot and gave blizzard millions of dollars and millions of followers because on their hindsight.

Go figure though, all the best ideas these days are borrowed or stolen anyway i.e facebook, microsoft etc.

This is one of those things I can never believe.

Why in the hell would GW approach a no-name company, which would lead to breaking their licensing agreements(which would cost them ALOT of money) with established companies that were producing far, far better games?

Because GW like so many other companies, are cheap.

Its why the market is filled with bad games and terrible movies, if you sell enough crap you'll make your money back. GW made lots of terrible games and maybe made their money back.

My guess is GW never made money back on video games so cut and ran on this project and left Silicone and Synapse with the work they already did, some money for abandoning the project, and a note saying do what you want with it just use general fantasy terms.

Blam! You have warcraft.

As for Diablo and Starcraft those were probably just WHQuest and 40K ideas thrown around in early meetings with Silicone and Synapse that never got looked at till later.

Sorry, what "terrible games" are you referring to?

For a long time, prior to Fire Warrior...GW's games were actually pretty good.

Come on, they were super bad.

Compared to what? Present day games?

Of course.

But most of them were on par with Command & Conquer/Heroes of Might+Magic.

I personally liked the Epic game. I think some people still support it and have added other races.

Chaos Gate and Final Liberation were great. The original Space Hulk was one of the hardest games around. Space Hulk: Vengeance of the Blood Angels was great. Rites of War... not so much (re-skinned Panzer General was all that was...). Never played the Warhammer games (Horned Rat, Dark Omen).

BioRebel wrote:Also 1st edition anything looks almost nothing like 5th edition models. Case in point dreadnoughts.

You don't get it yet.

The shift happened between 2nd and 3rd. Those models in that pic I posted, all 2nd Ed (other than the plastic Tyranid Warriors and Genstealers, which came about during the Space Hulk/Advanced Space Crusade/Tyranid Attack era).

Tyranids went from holding swords to - STARCRAFT RELEASED - having blades as part of their arms.

How don't you see that?

Come on , quit throwing crazy conspiracy theories around , site some sources.

We arnt talking about religion here , though sometimes it sure feels like GW for some IS their god. Either way GW and Blizzard are both in our material realm hence , SOURCE for the claims.

There's no way to cite the claims, considering y'know...it was before the Internet was ever remotely a popular, worldwide and household subject. It would have required someone in the know with both GW and Blizzard at the time to have posted it, the site where it was posted to still be around and the content not deleted by the hosting company, etc etc.

There were no sites like DakkaDakka with thousands of people discussing rumors or what they heard about. There was no Google, there was no Wikipedia. There's going to be no record of it, outside of maybe some sealed documents with either company's lawyers. And there's no way in hell any of us have access to those, so you're SOL.

Kanluwen wrote:Why in the hell would GW approach a no-name company, which would lead to breaking their licensing agreements(which would cost them ALOT of money) with established companies that were producing far, far better games?

Just to confirm, at what theoretical time period were Blizzard and GW supposedly discussing making game together? Because I'm not sure the time line adds up with the claims you're making. For one, Blizzard hasn't been a no-name company since Warcraft: Orcs and Humans came out in 1994, and they became very successful when Warcraft II came out in 1995. Were these contacts with GW supposedly happening before Warcraft: Orcs and Humans came out? That would make slightly more sense, as I agree that before Wacraft: Orcs and Humans, Blizzard was nowhere near as well known. The thing is though, there weren't very many GW video games out before that time, and they were produced by a variety of different companies, so I'm not sure that "breaking their licensing agreements" was really a risk that GW would have been taking.

The only GW games that predate the first Warcraft were HeroQuest, Space Crusade, and Space Hulk, which came out in 1991, 1992, and 1993, respectively. Heroquest and Space Crusade were done by Gremlin Graphics/Gremlin Interactive, and Space Hulk was done by EA. In 1995 (the same year Warcraft II came out), there was a Blood Bowl game released by MicroLeague, as well as the second Space Hulk game, Vengeance of the Blood Angels by EA, and Shadow of the Horned Rat, by Mindscape.

GW did a lot of work with a lot of different companies to produce games in the early to mid-90s, so I think the idea that GW would have broken their license agreements, and cost themselves a lot of money by working with Blizzard seems a little bit far-fetched. StarCraft development started in 1995, so these supposed talks must have happened before that, because the project was already known as StarCraft at that point.

So is the idea that GW collaboration (in whatever form it actually took) with Blizzard occurred before the release of the first Warcraft title in 1994? Because that's the only thing that would make GW's decision to not work with Blizzard somewhat understandable, since their first big title didn't come out until '94. If it was anytime after that though, deciding not to work with Blizzard would have been ridiculous, and I think a comparison of the other GW games that were released in the 90s, and their success (or lack thereof) compared to Blizzard's games of the 90s would support that claim.

Orki wrote:

Herohammernostalgia wrote:

Orki wrote:Well, I can't remember the date that the original Starcraft/Warcraft games came out, but at UK GD '92/93 (?) GW were showing off a VERY similar game that was never mentioned beyond the stall on the day. Dunno if that had anything to do with it

Edit - Yeah, it was '93 that I saw it. Same year that they teased us with the first live-action 40K movie plug...

That could have been "Shadow of the Horned rat", the original warhammer fantasy pc/ps1 game?

Nope. Had that, rinsed it regularly.

There were two tactical isometric rts style games, one fantasy and the other 40K, each only running on 1 comp (pc's) and very specifically announced as 'in development'. They were more zoomed-in, and looked much more like the 'craft games than the early GW comp games like SOTHR.

LunaHound wrote:Come on , quit throwing crazy conspiracy theories around , site some sources.

We arnt talking about religion here , though sometimes it sure feels like GW for some IS their god. Either way GW and Blizzard are both in our material realm hence , SOURCE for the claims.

Source - Little old me. Games Day UK 1993.

And what year did the first 'craft game come out?

Kanluwen wrote:There's no way to cite the claims, considering y'know...it was before the Internet was ever remotely a popular, worldwide and household subject. It would have required someone in the know with both GW and Blizzard at the time to have posted it, the site where it was posted to still be around and the content not deleted by the hosting company, etc etc.

There were no sites like DakkaDakka with thousands of people discussing rumors or what they heard about. There was no Google, there was no Wikipedia. There's going to be no record of it, outside of maybe some sealed documents with either company's lawyers. And there's no way in hell any of us have access to those, so you're SOL.

^^ This!

Lunahound - My memory of these games is very clear, and about as good a source as you will get, barring what Kanlwen said! You don't have to believe me as is your right, but I can assure you that what was demo'd to us was closer to War/Starcraft than any other subsequent GW game franchise of the era.

Hordini wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:Why in the hell would GW approach a no-name company, which would lead to breaking their licensing agreements(which would cost them ALOT of money) with established companies that were producing far, far better games?

Just to confirm, at what theoretical time period were Blizzard and GW supposedly discussing making game together? Because I'm not sure the time line adds up with the claims you're making. For one, Blizzard hasn't been a no-name company since Warcraft: Orcs and Humans came out in 1994, and they became very successful when Warcraft II came out in 1995. Were these contacts with GW supposedly happening before Warcraft: Orcs and Humans came out? That would make slightly more sense, as I agree that before Warcraft: Orcs and Humans, Blizzard was nowhere near as well known. The thing is though, there weren't very many GW video games out before that time, and they were produced by a variety of different companies, so I'm not sure that "breaking their licensing agreements" was really a risk that GW would have been taking.

Actually, while their products were produced by a variety of companies...it was because each company was licensed a different property. That's how GW seems to operate. It's a pretty smart way to do it too, because rather than letting a company that has no experience doing specific things--you license them a property they can do something with.

It's why THQ and Relic have the 40k property, rather than the WHFB one.

The only GW games that predate the first Warcraft were HeroQuest, Space Crusade, and Space Hulk, which came out in 1991, 1992, and 1993, respectively. Heroquest and Space Crusade were done by Gremlin Graphics/Gremlin Interactive, and Space Hulk was done by EA. In 1995 (the same year Warcraft II came out), there was a Blood Bowl game released by MicroLeague, as well as the second Space Hulk game, Vengeance of the Blood Angels by EA, and Shadow of the Horned Rat, by Mindscape.

^ see above.

GW did a lot of work with a lot of different companies to produce games in the early to mid-90s, so I think the idea that GW would have broken their license agreements, and cost themselves a lot of money by working with Blizzard seems a little bit far-fetched. StarCraft development started in 1995, so these supposed talks must have happened before that, because the project was already known as StarCraft at that point.

So is the idea that GW collaboration (in whatever form it actually took) with Blizzard occurred before the release of the first Warcraft title in 1994? Because that's the only thing that would make GW's decision to not work with Blizzard somewhat understandable, since their first big title didn't come out until '94. If it was anytime after that though, deciding not to work with Blizzard would have been ridiculous, and I think a comparison of the other GW games that were released in the 90s, and their success (or lack thereof) compared to Blizzard's games of the 90s would support that claim.

There's never really been a suggestion of GW collaborating with Blizzard, outside of from the Blizzard fanboys. The story I've always heard(once even from Andy Chambers at GD2001) is that Blizzard approached GW with a finished project, that was completely unannounced. GW freaked out a bit, told them to change everything but opted not to sue them for IP infringement.

Blizzard then announced Starcraft a year later, after changing everything out from 40k related stuff to Starcraft's IP. The rest is, as they say...history.

Kanluwen wrote:The story I've always heard(once even from Andy Chambers at GD2001) is that Blizzard approached GW with a finished project, that was completely unannounced. GW freaked out a bit, told them to change everything but opted not to sue them for IP infringement.

Yes, that's pretty much what I was told, also by high-level GW people.

Also that Blizzard actually had permanent gaming tables at their HQ for playing our favourite table-top games.

Kanluwen wrote:

Hordini wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:Why in the hell would GW approach a no-name company, which would lead to breaking their licensing agreements(which would cost them ALOT of money) with established companies that were producing far, far better games?

Just to confirm, at what theoretical time period were Blizzard and GW supposedly discussing making game together? Because I'm not sure the time line adds up with the claims you're making. For one, Blizzard hasn't been a no-name company since Warcraft: Orcs and Humans came out in 1994, and they became very successful when Warcraft II came out in 1995. Were these contacts with GW supposedly happening before Warcraft: Orcs and Humans came out? That would make slightly more sense, as I agree that before Warcraft: Orcs and Humans, Blizzard was nowhere near as well known. The thing is though, there weren't very many GW video games out before that time, and they were produced by a variety of different companies, so I'm not sure that "breaking their licensing agreements" was really a risk that GW would have been taking.

Actually, while their products were produced by a variety of companies...it was because each company was licensed a different property. That's how GW seems to operate. It's a pretty smart way to do it too, because rather than letting a company that has no experience doing specific things--you license them a property they can do something with.

It's why THQ and Relic have the 40k property, rather than the WHFB one.

The only GW games that predate the first Warcraft were HeroQuest, Space Crusade, and Space Hulk, which came out in 1991, 1992, and 1993, respectively. Heroquest and Space Crusade were done by Gremlin Graphics/Gremlin Interactive, and Space Hulk was done by EA. In 1995 (the same year Warcraft II came out), there was a Blood Bowl game released by MicroLeague, as well as the second Space Hulk game, Vengeance of the Blood Angels by EA, and Shadow of the Horned Rat, by Mindscape.

^ see above.

GW did a lot of work with a lot of different companies to produce games in the early to mid-90s, so I think the idea that GW would have broken their license agreements, and cost themselves a lot of money by working with Blizzard seems a little bit far-fetched. StarCraft development started in 1995, so these supposed talks must have happened before that, because the project was already known as StarCraft at that point.

So is the idea that GW collaboration (in whatever form it actually took) with Blizzard occurred before the release of the first Warcraft title in 1994? Because that's the only thing that would make GW's decision to not work with Blizzard somewhat understandable, since their first big title didn't come out until '94. If it was anytime after that though, deciding not to work with Blizzard would have been ridiculous, and I think a comparison of the other GW games that were released in the 90s, and their success (or lack thereof) compared to Blizzard's games of the 90s would support that claim.

There's never really been a suggestion of GW collaborating with Blizzard, outside of from the Blizzard fanboys. The story I've always heard(once even from Andy Chambers at GD2001) is that Blizzard approached GW with a finished project, that was completely unannounced. GW freaked out a bit, told them to change everything but opted not to sue them for IP infringement.

Blizzard then announced Starcraft a year later, after changing everything out from 40k related stuff to Starcraft's IP. The rest is, as they say...history.

Yeah, that's the only story that I ever heard that was somewhat believable too (i.e. that Blizzard approached GW with a game), but I was just trying to leave the idea open to interpretation. I guess my main point is, why would Blizzard at that time have been a worse choice for a Warhammer 40k license than the other companies that developed 40k related games in the mid to late 90's?

Also, when you review the development stages of StarCraft from alpha to beta to release, the idea that they had anything close to a "complete" game to approach GW with begins to appear ridiculously far-fetched. The early alpha stage is basically Warcraft II in space, and by the time they hit beta it begins to be a lot more recognizable, and none of it looks anything like a "complete game" that was simply reformatted. It looks like really rough alpha and beta builds, all of which are either pretty distinctly not 40k-related (in the case of the early alpha version) or StarCraft-specific (in the case of the more recognizable beta version).

This website has some good screenshots of the alpha and beta versions of StarCraft.

Aye, as many have said there is no evidence.

All I know is I vaguely remember reading something in Gamesmaster in and around 93, that they had heard a rumour of a company (aka Blizz) working on a Warhammer themed strategy game.

I was positive someone had a photocopy of the footnote in the news section at the front of the mag, back in 2002 in one of these very common discussions, but I cannot find it anywhere.

Anyone got a Gamesmaster collection that starts from issue 1 in Jan 93?

Morathi's Darkest Sin wrote:Aye, as many have said there is no evidence.

All I know is I vaguely remember reading something in Gamesmaster in and around 93, that they had heard a rumour of a company (aka Blizz) working on a Warhammer themed strategy game.

I was positive someone had a photocopy of the footnote in the news section at the front of the mag, back in 2002 in one of these very common discussions, but I cannot find it anywhere.

Anyone got a Gamesmaster collection that starts from issue 1 in Jan 93?

Think I have it somewhere in the loft, might have a look later.

And whiever said there were no good GW games if a fool (and I mean that in the politest way possible).

Shadow of the Horned Rat was one of the best games of the period and the Dark ome follow up was even better. It pains me that my current PC will not run these (or X-com apocalypse or Close Combat 2, 3, or 4!).

The Final Liberation was good but had its limits (the maps were way too small) and the cut scenes were for the time wefre awesome.

Chaos Gate was good as well (quite like X-com in my opinion).

Sorry quoite a tangent there? I'll go back to work

notprop wrote:And whiever said there were no good GW games if a fool (and I mean that in the politest way possible).

Shadow of the Horned Rat was one of the best games of the period and the Dark ome follow up was even better. It pains me that my current PC will not run these (or X-com apocalypse or Close Combat 2, 3, or 4!).

The Final Liberation was good but had its limits (the maps were way too small) and the cut scenes were for the time wefre awesome.

Chaos Gate was good as well (quite like X-com in my opinion).

I'm not sure who this is directed at, but I will say that while some of the Games Workshop-based games of the 90s were good (I though Chaos Gate was pretty fun), most of them were not really of the same caliber as the games Blizzard released around the same time.

You can download dosbox and run all of the above games on any windows pc

The problem with this tale of collaboration or stealing or demoing or whatever is that there are no sources, it's always this "I heard it from this guy, are you calling me a liar?" type of evidence. There's zero confirmation for it, and I don't buy it. If it all really happened, there ought to be an account of it somewhere - a magazine article (which can be archived or scanned), an interview, a book about making games, or something along those lines. If it was on paper it would not be difficult to scan or type in somewhere, if it was on a mailing list it could be copy-pasted, if it was on usenet it's archived in google groups.

I also don't see what's supposed to be so similar about warcraft and WHFB or Starcraft and 40k. They're set in the same genre so of course some stuff is similar, but Games Workshop didn't invent orcs, goblins, castles, armor, swords, demons, wizards, power armor, bug-like aliens with a hive mind, energy weapons, philosophical elder races, or any of the other stuff that's common between the two, regardless of what some fanboys think. I've never seen anyone point out similarities between WC/SC and WHFB/40k that hit on things unique to or distinctive about WHFB/40k, it's always something like 'ohh, Orks like to kill stuff! they stole it!'.

When two fantasy games made in the 90s use things like Orks that Tolkein popularized back in the mid-50s, armor and castles like were used historically, and wizards like were popularized in various pulp material in the 30s, that doesn't mean that one got their idea from the other. When both science fiction games use ideas from books like the Lensmen series (30s), Starship troopers (50s), and Ender's game (70s), it's the same deal.

Hordini wrote:

notprop wrote:And whiever said there were no good GW games if a fool (and I mean that in the politest way possible).

Shadow of the Horned Rat was one of the best games of the period and the Dark ome follow up was even better. It pains me that my current PC will not run these (or X-com apocalypse or Close Combat 2, 3, or 4!).

The Final Liberation was good but had its limits (the maps were way too small) and the cut scenes were for the time wefre awesome.

Chaos Gate was good as well (quite like X-com in my opinion).

I'm not sure who this is directed at, but I will say that while some of the Games Workshop-based games of the 90s were good (I though Chaos Gate was pretty fun), most of them were not really of the same caliber as the games Blizzard released around the same time.

Not sure myself. My work IT only allows access to Dakka for 6 x 10 minute slots so I have to read quickly and type fast!

Grundz wrote:You can download dosbox and run all of the above games on any windows pc

Nice one, i'll look into this.

I maybe just shooting blanks. But wouldn't it be awesome if GW and Blizzard combined? But GW was the head? And blizzard delt with commercialism and video gaming, but GW still makes the board games and they make the lore. Is that a good or a bad idea?
IF so please say I. Or WTF?

Asherian Command wrote:I maybe just shooting blanks. But wouldn't it be awesome if GW and Blizzard combined? But GW was the head? And blizzard delt with commercialism and video gaming, but GW still makes the board games and they make the lore. Is that a good or a bad idea?
IF so please say I. Or WTF?

Either Blizzard dont need GW anymore , or GW think they can surpass Blizzard are the only 2 things i can think of.
How GW tried to expand into MMO with Warhammer Online , and then upcomming 40k MMO , and of course to beat Blizzard , release a movie that even Blizzard hasnt done yet.

I guess whats next is witnessing if this high budget side project makes or breaks GW

^^^^^^^ this, there was a change in between we didnt jump to hydralisk style

Asherian Command wrote:I maybe just shooting blanks. But wouldn't it be awesome if GW and Blizzard combined? But GW was the head?

Yeah, GW at the head. If Blizzard was at the head, that'd put Bob Kotic in charge, and that would turn GW into a company that will raise prices, not care about the quality of their product, abuse and alienate their fanbase and lots of other things.

Oh wait...


Automatically Appended Next Post:

SweetLou wrote:this, there was a change in between we didnt jump to hydralisk style

Yeah we did. Tyranids went from 1st/2nd Ed aesthetic to 3rd Ed aesthetic (similar to Zerg) between releases. There was no 'in between' phase.

IIRC Blizzard and GW once did have a legal dust up, it was about a little known game called Warcraft (1) and it's similarities to Warhammer Shadow of the Horned Rat.

At that time, Games Workshop had licensed it's works to SSI (Of Panzer General fame) who produced such fun as Chaos Gate and Final Liberation, as well as the aforementioned Shadow.

I seem to recall it was settled behind closed doors, with neither party commenting on it afterwards. I suspect it's also the reason that Blizzard once preemptive sued GW to keep them from suing Blizzard (again, do not remember the details, but it was something related to Warcraft.)

H.B.M.C. wrote:What are you talking about?

...The Gaunts changed in style. H-Gaunts changed...

I don't think I have EVER noticed gaunts looking different...

Ordo Dakka wrote:

H.B.M.C. wrote:What are you talking about?

...The Gaunts changed in style. H-Gaunts changed...

I don't think I have EVER noticed gaunts looking different...

From the Tyranid archive site linked earlier:

2nd Ed Gaunt

http://album.warpshadow.com/v/ShadowsInTheWarp/Tyranid-Archive/Warhammer-40K/2ndEdNids/Pewter_Termags.jpg.html

3r Ed Gaunt

http://album.warpshadow.com/v/ShadowsInTheWarp/Tyranid-Archive/Warhammer-40K/3rdEdNids/Plastic_Termagant.jpg.html

Not as much as a leap than from say 2nd ed warrior, but still a noticeable change.

Dude they are pretty much the same. With straighter tails, maybe.

They're half the size.

And compare the original H-Gaunts to current H-Gaunts. The original H-Gaunts were basically Alien aliens.