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sourclams wrote:Unless you consistently find yourself shooting 5 or fewer Orks in cover, you should really give your Havocs the missile launchers. Direct hits will rip apart the horde, and even scatters can be favorable, and you still have S8 utility vs nobs and vehicles.

I wouldn't mind using missile launchers but I have a bunch of heavy bolters laying around and I would have to buy some missile launchers. I may try it though.

Imagine if partials still existed, lawl.

When the models hit the tabletop, there is inevitably going to be some clump of Boyz that had to go around a bit of terrain or got too close to another squad or deployed/fell out of a transport. In my personal experience it's usually possible to hit 5 or more models directly (although I'd call the range something like 4-7) and scatters deviating onto the other, more dispersed part of the unit yield fewer hits.

Theoretically, I agree that if an infinite field of boyz is packed cheek to jowl front to back, then scatters will yield as many or more hits. Practically though, hits are more favorable.

Plus there's actively clumping them via the Lash of Submission and Tank Shock.

My experience with blits vs tau witchhunters orks nids necrons eldar...

tau: i find that within two turns (sometimes first turn) ive lost the blits i take, sometimes as many as 5 in a 1750 list, this is not as rare as you may think when 2-3 broadside squads are raining fire...

witchhunters: blits? hahaha what a joke, the awsome tank with the missle launcher takes em out every time (sos cant remeber name)

orks: in 1750 pt games its almost not worth it for me because i run noises i cream them anyway

nids: this is one time whn theyre actually useful, having the ability to wipe the lights and heavys is super handy

necrons: with some luck you can take out a monolith but part from that theyre a waste as again my noises tend to clean house

eldar: i find that i tend to snipe with them and this means im better of with havoks with las or ac

experience with havoks....

Tau: mate of mine hates it when ive got 2 las 2 ac in a rhino, i maul pretty much everything that is stupid enought to stumble into range

witchhunters: havnt really had much experience but what i do know is that ac's are epic vs penitents

Orcs: when the ork comes a nokin the hbs go sockin

nids: not really any experience but i imagine that acs would clean house

necrons: again (im an ac spammer) these guys will wreak havok (pardon the pun) with necron defenses, and ultimately if needed you can field las for anti monolith work

eldar: 2 ml 2 ac is a brutal combo for wiping these guys

I think it’s hard to compare the 2 from a generalist point of view as the strengths and weaknesses form a surface level point of view is pretty obvious; it’s like comparing apples and oranges (or Oblits and Havocs). I think this discussion would be more helpful in terms of tactical discussion if specific optimal configurations were discussed and compared (with army list synergy taken into account).

For examples:@225 points
3 Oblits vs 10 x Havoc with 4x ACs in rhino

Man, talk about split reactions. Half say Obliterators, half say Havocs. Guess that answers my question - both are good depending on what and how you use them.

That's always the answer. The real question is what are the nuts and bolts of how you use them.

Sanctjud wrote:@Brother-Thunder:
I think you are misunderstanding my point and I of yours.
Oblits attracting heavy weapons is GOOD for the rest of the list.
Havocs not attracting that shooting is BAD for the Transports.

While Havocs will attract other kinds of shooting that are better off downing them than the Oblits.

As for:

That and my assassin scout squad w/ a power fist does wonders against oblit squads.

Details?
Opponents constantly leaving them in outflank charge range?
You can not first turn charge with scouts unless you have Shrike in the list...
The other possibility is if you use the Storm, in which case I would agree that they will do a good number on Oblits, but you are using similar amount of points and one more FoC to deal with them.

Yes, you can charge turn 1 without shrike. 5 scouts in a land speeder storm. Storm makes its scout move 24 inches up, while being 12 inches away. move 12, disembark 2, assault 6. Across the map turn 1. as you said, yes.

Also, I rarely use my fast attack slots. Storms taking them up is just fine

DarkHound wrote:If you don't need them for multiple jobs they'll never be cost efficient. If you have a balanced army list anyway, you won't need them for multiple jobs. I'd go with the quad Missile Launcher Havocs.

So, instead of the thing that does multiple jobs, you take...the thing that does multiple jobs?

Sanctjud wrote:So... if I wanted a plasma cannon where would I go?

untill november, you'd go Dark Eldar and take Disintegrators or go some other army. If you want Plasma Cannons, CSM is not the best list to go.

Sanctjud wrote:
Daemon-Archon Ren, you are discounting the flexibility they bring. Sure you pay for it, but I guess the question is, do you tailor your lists for your fights?

Not really, because their 'flexibility' isn't really all that great to be honest... I can pay 225 points for a 6 wound(3man) team that will be primarily anti-tank. If you are ever in a situation where the Twinlinked Plasma-guns/Melta guns will ever be good, then you opponent is doing it wrong. The multi-melta works in the same fasion, because honestly, being able to move 6"(max) when them vehicles can move 12" (min) should mean you are never getting in melta range. Sure, you can use the multimeltas (and in some instances, the meltaguns) on walkers or vehicles that are charging you, but even so, that means that your priority targets are saved for a turn to protect something that will get utterly obliterated (pardon the pun) by a "second-thought". In all reality the only thing the oblits bring to the table are moving lascannons that also have flamers to 'protect' them from combat(the plasma cannons and the powerfists are second thought, as the plasma cannons aren't that great and the fists will mostlikely not hit anything). The havoks are cheaper, provide a greater amount of fire and ultimately will make their points up more frequently (and make a far greater amount of points) then the Oblits.

Now, their durability is nice if people are foolish enought to devote an ungodly amount of firepower to them, but if you are playing a smart opponent, they can handle you oblits with at most 150 points of firepower, and even then, they can typically afford to ignore 3 lascannon shots (one of them statistically missing each time) for 225 points.

Granted, you can spend 280+ points on a Chaos Sorcerer to make them "extremely flexible" but in all reality, is it really worth it?

@Daemon-Archon Ren:

untill november, you'd go Dark Eldar and take Disintegrators or go some other army. If you want Plasma Cannons, CSM is not the best list to go.

-I'm sure you understand what I had meant. They are different units that bring different things. I want the presence of plasma cannon(s) in my list and that's where I get them.

I can pay 225 points for a 6 wound(3man) team that will be primarily anti-tank.

I guess this is what I'm getting at.
You say their flexibility isn't great because you assume that oblits are in the list for the sole reason of anti-tank. You play that way, but not others.

If you are ever in a situation where the Twinlinked Plasma-guns/Melta guns will ever be good, then you opponent is doing it wrong.

So...they times they deepstrike in and getting the 'first strike' is the opponent 'doing it wrong'?
The TLPG/MG have been very useful for me when I use the oblits as a second wave following behind the Rhino wall.

The multi-melta works in the same fasion, because honestly, being able to move 6"(max) when them vehicles can move 12" (min) should mean you are never getting in melta range.

The MM are a sort of defensive weapon on Oblits. It's there to discourage approach...and generally most stuff wants to get closer to you, so it's not a huge issue of 'never getting in melta range'.

In all reality the only thing the oblits bring to the table are moving lascannons..............they can typically afford to ignore 3 lascannon shots (one of them statistically missing each time) for 225 points.

Which IMO, is the last thing you bring them for. You take Lascannon shots when you have to, not when you want to. Again, you pay to have options as the game progesses, you don't pay the points for just a moving lascannon platform.

plasma cannons aren't that great

It's a chaos army, so...(sadly)...lash does come up once in a while.

will make their points

Not gonna get into this too much, but it's 5th ed, and with mission objectives in mind, it's not about making points back these days.

Interesting post D-A Ren, you're one of the first people I know to discount the power of the Plasma Cannon. My experience has been people love them and that they're just as important as the Lascannons for Obliterators even without Lash.

People think of it as an anti-horde only weapon but it really is the best way to deal with Terminators and multiple units that rely on FnP. This means things like Plague Marines, Super Gants and those annoying S. Priests buried in BA squads.

Oblits just out-class Havocs which is a shame really, maybe if a new book comes out they might get some fancy rules.

Well to be frank, havocs have their uses.
Posters have detailed why they are contender for Heavy support choices.

Of the reasons here are a few:
-Higher model count.
-Lower Minimum cost.
-Higher Rate of fire.
-Access to ML or AC.
-Backfield setup so doesn't clog the middle.
-Lower perceived threat.

minigun762 wrote:Interesting post D-A Ren, you're one of the first people I know to discount the power of the Plasma Cannon. My experience has been people love them and that they're just as important as the Lascannons for Obliterators even without Lash.

The problem with plasma cannons on oblits, even with out the potential "gets hot", is that you are going to get a MAXIMUM of 7 models under the 3" template, assuming you don't scatter and you have lashed them PERFECTLY. If you want to assume "best case scenarios" why not do the same with the (practically infinate)" battle cannon on your defilier which is costing you 75 points less, has much higher durability (and versitility), and can IK most units, still piercing most armor, and hitting a max potential of 33+?
Its hard to justify that difference especially as the defilier + the Havoks (the way to get the same number of heavy shots of havoks vs oblits) costs the same as the (4) Oblits (300 points) and uses the same number of HS slots (where the H+D combo is MUCH more powerful)

minigun762 wrote:People think of it as an anti-horde only weapon but it really is the best way to deal with Terminators and multiple units that rely on FnP. This means things like Plague Marines, Super Gants and those annoying S. Priests buried in BA squads.

Actually, for Termis, its much worse... Your max total targets drops to 5 (due to base size increase) and there are other, more effective ways of dealing with termis (plasma MSU with Plague marines comes to mind) if they are really that much of a threat, but again, if you have the Havoc/Defilier combo instead of the Obilts, as already stated, you are putting out a much higher wound count, as for your FnP fears, the battle cannon makes short work of all the units you mentioned.

Sanctjud wrote:@Daemon-Archon Ren:
-I'm sure you understand what I had meant. They are different units that bring different things. I want the presence of plasma cannon(s) in my list and that's where I get them.

And my point is that you are spending way too many points to get that plasma cannon, you easily discounted dreds, but in all honesty, they only have a 1 in 6 chance of not shooting (thats the turn you "pop smoke") and they have that same 1 in 6 chance to fire their weapons twice! (which, if you replace the DCCW with a ML gives you 2 7ap2 blasts and 2 8 ap3/4 ap6 blasts) for 105 points! (and its taking an ELITES choice instead of the precious HS slot). However, if you are worried about shooting yourself with firefrenzy... L2CD

Sanctjud wrote:
I guess this is what I'm getting at.
You say their flexibility isn't great because you assume that oblits are in the list for the sole reason of anti-tank. You play that way, but not others.

My point is that their major aspects is the fact that they are anti-tank, in which there are better options. They have some anti infantry, but again, there are better options.

Sanctjud wrote:
So...they times they deepstrike in and getting the 'first strike' is the opponent 'doing it wrong'?

Sanctjud wrote:Oblits are not supposed to DS,

I'm confused...

Sanctjud wrote:
The TLPG/MG have been very useful for me when I use the oblits as a second wave following behind the Rhino wall.

You must have extremely good SnP rolls or you must move your rhinos rather slow for this to be effective, and either way, if you have a "Rhino Wall" don't the guys inside have plenty of special weapons (I certainly hope so...)

Sanctjud wrote:The MM are a sort of defensive weapon on Oblits. It's there to discourage approach...and generally most stuff wants to get closer to you, so it's not a huge issue of 'never getting in melta range'.

Most stuff that can kill oblits can either kill them from outside of the melta range, or kill them after they miss their MM shots... either way, the things that require getting close cost significantly less then the Oblit squad, and will typically nuke them out of existance long before those oblits made their points back.

Sanctjud wrote:Which IMO, is the last thing you bring them for. You take Lascannon shots when you have to, not when you want to. Again, you pay to have options as the game progesses, you don't pay the points for just a moving lascannon platform.

if the lascannon is the last thing you are using them for, then effectively, you are spending 75 points for twin-linked weapons that you can give to normal troops (even cult troops) and/or a situational multi-melta/plasma cannon.

Sanctjud wrote:It's a chaos army, so...(sadly)...lash does come up once in a while.

Its a chaos army, so...(awesomely)...we can put battle cannons on our super-walkers.

Sanctjud wrote:
Not gonna get into this too much, but it's 5th ed, and with mission objectives in mind, it's not about making points back these days.

Actually, yeah it is... I've yet to see a tournment where VPs didn't attest for at least something, in normal games, VPs constitute the "Moral Victory" (as Tiehammer runs rampant) and if you aren't making your points back on units, then that means you are literally wasting points (that 675 points on HS could have gone into more troops, or that 300 points on oblits that killed about ~150 points of stuff could have gone into the Havoc/Defilier combo that killed over 400+ points easy, and got those troops off the objective!)

Again, not saying that Oblits can't perform well with a bit of luck (I once took a squad that killed almost all the armor on the board by turn 4) but point wise, and competitively, they are not as good as the havoks. They are fun as HELL to play, but when asking which one is more "tactically advantageous" the oblits, sadly, fall short.

@Daemon-Archon Ren

Wall-o-text: just to note (as I do within the wall) this is not intended to be confrontational, I’m just replying.

And my point is that you are spending way too many points to get that plasma cannon, you easily discounted dreds,

I wanted the presence of the plasma cannon, doesn’t mean it’s gonna be spam shot the whole game. I don’t use Dread with PC’s, I’d use them w/ MLs or 2DCCWs.
In addition, IIRC, you can not do the pop smoke trick.
So it ends up being 1/3 chance of it not doing what you want. In addition, “L2CD”, sadly I don’t know what that means, learn to calm down? I worry not about fire frenzy hitting my own stuff, I only worry about it not shooting what I want ( some play the frenzy rule as turn around while others go for the weapon arc interpretation).

My point is that their major aspects is the fact that they are anti-tank, in which there are better options. They have some anti infantry, but again, there are better options.

And I take them because I want both in one FoC.
That’s the issue. Specializing vs. Flexibility. Neither is better, they are different and both work in my experience and from all those that use oblits.
I’m not saying oblits are the only way to go, just to keep that in mind. All of the heavy support are good. I like them, they do well for me, I think I’ve had a pretty balanced view about them without going into fanboi raging about how good they are.
As Darkhound has said, I guess I’m playing the ‘bad guy’, but I’m just noting my experiences with them. To be doubly sure, I’m not trying to be rude or confrontational, I’m just responding to points.

Sanctjud wrote:
So...they times they deepstrike in and getting the 'first strike' is the opponent 'doing it wrong'?

Sanctjud wrote:Oblits are not supposed to DS,

I'm confused...

I’m sorry, there should be a “some” in front of ‘times’ in that statement.
In addition, I do not Deepstrike them on a consistant basis, I prefer them to contribute turn 1 and on. The previous statement was a direct response to your suggestion that the opponent is sucking when the twin-linked weapons are doing well. The opponent can’t ‘do it wrong’ when the oblits actually come in and pop something.

You must have extremely good SnP rolls or you must move your rhinos rather slow for this to be effective, and either way, if you have a "Rhino Wall" don't the guys inside have plenty of special weapons (I certainly hope so...)

Yes, the troopers have much special weapons. The oblits either add to this or provide more cover fire. It just depends on what is across the board. My SnP rolls are all over the place, but If I need to run them, I will. I don’t know why you’d have to assume that I have good SnP rolls, a second wave does not mean commitment a single turn after the first wave commits.

Most stuff that can kill oblits can either kill them from outside of the melta range, or kill them after they miss their MM shots... either way, the things that require getting close cost significantly less then the Oblit squad, and will typically nuke them out of existance long before those oblits made their points back.

So, I don’t use terrain and rhinos to my advantage to block line of sight? Stuff killing them at long range is not targeting my rhinos=good.

if the lascannon is the last thing you are using them for, then effectively, you are spending 75 points for twin-linked weapons that you can give to normal troops (even cult troops) and/or a situational multi-melta/plasma cannon.

No, you are paying the points for all of those weapons. LC’s are last on the list with respect to using them on a consistent basis. In my experience, the LC’s are used turn 1, with MM or PC, turn 2, then all of the above but not LC’s turn 3.
Needing to use them vs. wanting to use them does not mean the LC is not gonna be used. The oblit is flexible enough to have a weapon for a particular target you need shot at.
Oblits are reactive to the opponent, whereas the havocs are tailored to targets depending on weapon chosen irrespective of the opponent.

Its a chaos army, so...(awesomely)...we can put battle cannons on our super-walkers.

The battle cannon has issues with 2+ armor while the plasma cannon does not. The defiler has its own pros and cons. But I thought we were focusing on Havocs vs. Oblits. I had introduced Lash as something benefiting Oblits that make Plasma Cannons good. I was not joking or making light of things and I don’t understand why you are jokingly mirroring my quote to suggest something that I don’t see supporting the point.
Battle Cannons are not better than plasma cannons, they different and good in their own way.

Sanctjud wrote:
Not gonna get into this too much, but it's 5th ed, and with mission objectives in mind, it's not about making points back these days.


VPs are for tie breakers in my area.
I don’t concern myself with it. What happens, happens. I need only one more objective than my opponent to win, loosely, to me, it means I care not what I kill so long as I have it in the end.
And with force concentration, coupled with a fast list, I am frequent in situations where things do not make up their points back…those points back are distributed to the whole army.

As for going back to Oblits with this point, I don’t need them to make their points back, I only need them to use their guns on targets I want shot at. To be perfectly honest, if they only take out a rhino and is critical to my getting to the objective and holding it, I’m perfectly happy.

As for competitive, they have been for me. Personally (though I guess I need to restate that it’s just my experience so take it worth a grain of salt), I see more competitive lists/batreps/tourneys with oblits around more than havocs.

Sanctjud wrote:
I wanted the presence of the plasma cannon, doesn’t mean it’s gonna be spam shot the whole game. I don’t use Dread with PC’s, I’d use them w/ MLs or 2DCCWs.
In addition, IIRC, you can not do the pop smoke trick.

Popping smoke happens in the movement phase, so you can do this. Also, ML is a free upgrade that is independent of the PC upgrade...

Sanctjud wrote:
So it ends up being 1/3 chance of it not doing what you want. In addition, “L2CD”, sadly I don’t know what that means, learn to calm down? I worry not about fire frenzy hitting my own stuff, I only worry about it not shooting what I want ( some play the frenzy rule as turn around while others go for the weapon arc interpretation).

Pivot towards the closest visible unit means pivot AFTER determining the closest visible, so if you are behind the dred, you are safe (playing it other ways then this is like playing with CSM LRs having Power of the Machine spirit or something, its a blatant rules change) L2CD is "Learn to Chaos Dred" so in reality, 1/6th of the time it does what you don't want it to do, and another 1/6 of the time it gets double the shots (where as, Oblits doesn't work 1/6 of the time, and when the oblits fail, you have the potential to take a wound...)

Sanctjud wrote:
And I take them because I want both in one FoC.

But in order to have them at the same level of firepower as the others (and for the same points) you are still using 2 FoC slots, and you can use those same two FoC (and equal points) to get MORE firepower and MORE versatility (which is what I am saying)

Sanctjud wrote:
That’s the issue. Specializing vs. Flexibility. Neither is better, they are different and both work in my experience and from all those that use oblits.

So I take it, as you thinking Specializing is as valid as "flexibility" you would support taking a predator with Twinlinked Lascannon and 2 Heavy bolter sponsons? Or a 5 man termi squad with a Combi-melta, a combi-flamer, a Combi-Plasma, duel Lightning-claws and a chainfist. Or mixing up special weapons in your Troops Choices?

Flexibility can be good, but not at a terrible cost, the fact is, that you can do more with 8 Missile launching Havocs(10 total wounds, 2 FoC slots) then you can with 4 oblits(8 total wounds, 2 FoC slots) (~same cost 10 point difference).

Sanctjud wrote:
I’m not saying oblits are the only way to go, just to keep that in mind. All of the heavy support are good. I like them, they do well for me, I think I’ve had a pretty balanced view about them without going into fanboi raging about how good they are.

They are not terrible, but just as Tech Marines and Termies aren't a horrible choice for Blood Angels, there are infact better elites choices, Oblits aren't a terrible HS choice, but statistically and tactically, they are worse then Havocs. (However, both are worse then Defilers, which is worth considering)

@Daemon-Archon Ren:
Unless you don't like GW House Rules, their FAQ states you can't use the smoke trick.

Secondly, as for the rules black hole, just look at the horrible can of worms that is unleashed every 3-4 weeks on the subject.

I usually ask my opponent if they care that I use the weapon arc interpretation, if they do not like it, I 4+ it. Easy peasy.
___________________

L2CD is "Learn to Chaos Dred", really...when did that catch phrase become in style?
___________________

As for Flexibility vs. Specilization:
Dependent on player and what they want.
Pred w/ TLLC/HB: I'm not a fan of preds period, but this setup, though poopooed much has it's charms. Mobile tank hunting and only needs to be stationary when it wants to do anti-infantry. It doesn't overpower the stink honestly, but it has a very narrow niche to fill.

Termies: I do flex their load out. I go for a hvy.flamer and then the rest combi-plasmas. Flamer when I use icons to get good angles, while plasmas don't mind to be >6" away from the enemy and so have safer DS spots.

Troop weapons: I don't personally do it, I double up on weapons, but their flexibility is seen between the special weapons they wield and their bolters and combat prowess. Though I have seen good rationale from players that go with split special weapons and get good milage out of them.
_______________

As for 10 Havocs with 8 MLs in 2 FoC vs. 4 Oblits in 2 FoC, sure you get more output from the Havocs.
But there are issues that I personally overwieght that make me shy away from them.

1) Suedo-Armor Saturation from oblits. This is a big one for me.
2) Oblits not doing Suedo-Armor Saturation are more durable than the Havocs.
3) Oblits are fearless while havocs are not.
4) Havocs lose effectiveness after the first body bag goes down, while oblits have wounds, but I will confess, minor.
5) Oblits not super annoyed at Dawn of War or Nightfight.
6) Mobility means they can hide and then come out and shoot, and personally I'm loathe to include static elements.
_____________________

That said, the only havocs I use are 8 with 4 AC.
Great mix of Quality shooting and weight of fire, one body bag for each heavy weapon.
The only havocs I had used extensively were blast master havocs of 3.5 for the flavor....sadly it is gone.
_____________________
As for defilers, I have one, not a huge fan, but my not liking them is more to due with lack of suitable terrain in my gaming groups to really enjoy their usage (aka nothing too high :-( )

Defiler battle cannons have one major flaw, theyre ordanance, which means they scatter the full 2d6, unless your a fantasic roller, 9 times out of ten ur going to mis altogether, which wastes your moving shot for an ac or twinlinked lascannon, (assuming you took one if not then fire away)

Tyranic Marta wrote:Defiler battle cannons have one major flaw, theyre ordanance, which means they scatter the full 2d6, unless your a fantasic roller, 9 times out of ten ur going to mis altogether, which wastes your moving shot for an ac or twinlinked lascannon, (assuming you took one if not then fire away)

Isn't it 2D6-BS? So for Defilers it would be 2D6-3. If your average scatter roll is 6, minus BS, that's an average scatter of 3 inches which isn't horrible.

im pretty sure that ordanance do not minus the fires bs,.... its in the core rulebook


Automatically Appended Next Post:
and that means that if the average roll is 6 and its a 2.5 inch base then you miss your target completely

I looked in the core rule book. They fire just the same as a blast weapon, 2d6-BS.

oh my bad sos

I mean sure it's no guarantee but the law of averages says you're going to hit dead on 50% of the time. The other 50% of the time, you have a 50% chance of scattering 3 inches or LESS. Now unless the unit you shot at is lined up in a line and you scatter north/south instead of east west, you're going to hit something. That is where Lash of Submission comes in. You don't NEED lash, but it certainly can make ordnance weapons a lot more powerful. A Havoc Launcher on your Rhino costs a piddly 15 extra points. Lash 1 unit into another unit if you can, or just take one unit and bunch them all up and hit them with 2 Havoc Launchers and a Battle Cannon if needed? Boom. Not like your Rhinos are going to be doing anything else after they drop off their squads.

Sanctjud wrote:@Daemon-Archon Ren:
Unless you don't like GW House Rules, their FAQ states you can't use the smoke trick.

You don't use the Smoke on "Firefrenzy" (you want to shoot twice with a ML/PC) you use the smoke on the "Crazed" result as you won't be shooting that turn anyway (and its totally within the rules)

Sanctjud wrote:
I usually ask my opponent if they care that I use the weapon arc interpretation, if they do not like it, I 4+ it. Easy peasy.

Its not based on the "weapon arc" its based on what the Dred has LoS to before he pivots to fire (as it clearly states that in the codex). Having to roll a 4+ on that would be like having an opponent make you roll off on how "His black rage works" simply because "he wants it to work a way other then it is (clearly) written".

Sanctjud wrote:
5) Oblits not super annoyed at Dawn of War or Nightfight.

Neither are Havocs, they get their 6 inch move onto the board, and since they are moving anyway, you can run them onto any terrain you may want them on anywho. Or you can do what I do, and buy them a Rhino (if only for another Smoke wall), in games where it is not DoW, the rhino is deployed seperate from them and used as a wall, in games of DoW, the Rhino gets them where they need to be, then joins the wall, or picks up a unit which had its rhino killed on turn 1/2.

Sanctjud wrote:
6) Mobility means they can hide and then come out and shoot, and personally I'm loathe to include static elements.

You can't say you like them as a priority target, and the fact you can hide and shoot with them, thats claiming two benefits that specifically counter each other.

Sanctjud wrote:
As for defilers, I have one, not a huge fan, but my not liking them is more to due with lack of suitable terrain in my gaming groups to really enjoy their usage (aka nothing too high :-( )

Defiliers are broken as hell... if your group has an IG player who fields lots of birdies, start shooting his birds with the chest cannon! 2d6 taking highest and resulting on 4/5+s is surprisingly awesome! (Not to mention the BC is broken all over the place in every other situation... Infact, the biggest surprise for me was when I read the BA codex and didn't see battlecannons on the Storm Raven... that woulda put them over-the-top in my book.)

You don't use the Smoke on "Firefrenzy" (you want to shoot twice with a ML/PC) you use the smoke on the "Crazed" result as you won't be shooting that turn anyway (and its totally within the rules)

Ahh, my bad, I had in my mind that you were saying the reverse. Yes, smoking on Crazy is legal, while shooting twice in firefrenzy, it's really 'depends' rather than 'want' to get two shots it. I sometimes play it that it turns full around, generally I play it doing that 50% of the time.

Its not based on the "weapon arc" its based on what the Dred has LoS to before he pivots to fire (as it clearly states that in the codex). Having to roll a 4+ on that would be like having an opponent make you roll off on how "His black rage works" simply because "he wants it to work a way other then it is (clearly) written".

I'm not getting into this, I rather get games started in my area than to argue about it.
In addition, it's not crystal clear from what I've seen:
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/318233.page

Neither are Havocs, they get their 6 inch move onto the board, and since they are moving anyway, you can run them onto any terrain you may want them on anywho. Or you can do what I do, and buy them a Rhino (if only for another Smoke wall), in games where it is not DoW, the rhino is deployed seperate from them and used as a wall, in games of DoW, the Rhino gets them where they need to be, then joins the wall, or picks up a unit which had its rhino killed on turn 1/2.

I head meant that they are not as annoyed as havocs who do not or are less likely (respectively) to get shots off.

Though, the rhino is a another good advantedge the Havocs have.

You can't say you like them as a priority target, and the fact you can hide and shoot with them, thats claiming two benefits that specifically counter each other.

Again, it's highly dependent on the opponent. With few ranged options, sitting in cover is enough... but my assumption is that if there is enough cover and a mass str8 plus ranged shooting, then the rhinos would be covered and the oblits would take shelter.

I don't play a single way every single game. I'm noting that their being a target (much like Daemon Princes) comes up often enough, but I don't play it recklessly all the time.

Defiliers are broken as hell...

/shrug. I don't agree, but this would be for a different thread.

i find that i very rarely dump my squads until they are either A forced (vechile destroyed...) or B its the end of the game and i need to hold the objective

I generally run Oblits as 2x3, though I sometimes sub in a 6 man havoc unit with 3 autocannons(same points) for the pure transport demolishing power in fun games. Missile launchers would cost the same, though I don't because my loyalist devastators are already armed accordingly(they're pretty dusty though, I admit ). Competitively they suffer all the same problems of loyalist devastators but trade one BS5 heavy weapon for 2a each and LD9/10 with potential rerolls and some slightly more expensive options.
I would rather run 8 man units with 4 weapons in the chaos codex tops to minimize points wastage and still have enough ablative wounds, it's not like we can combat squad. Either 8 man with 4 heavies/specials or 6 man with 3 seem to be the best numbers in my opinion.

Havocs are also an awesome way to bring a lot of fantastic special weapons to the table, I also occasionally run an 8-9 man unit with 4 meltaguns, chaos glory and an unmarked combi-melta daemon weapon lord in a rhino purely because that many meltas in a single unit is amazing.

I've considered running a 4x lascannon(have a lot of IW lascannons lying about) squad to bring to larger games(2k and up or so) but in general I'd rather just keep my oblits and take more chaos marines with twin specials.
In apoc havocs (no FoC, so along with oblits!)would be a fantastic way to spam either melta or lascannons though, where points don't matter as much as bringing more S9+ or melta weapons to the table.

das a really good point but it still doesnt really awnser the question....